Originally posted by Sable
YouTube video
That isn't the physical form of Sauron.
Doesn't mean he can't perform same feats at less power.
Also the Witch King who is < Sauron
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
First of all you are being completly irrational here. We are talking about Sauron not a Cosmic entity. The levels of power are nowhere NEAR. As you said he has Matter and Molecular manipulation. OFCOURSE he could turn NK into dust!!!!
And yet his powers are not Valyrian Steel or Dragonglass, yet you believe that those being the NK's only vulnerabilities makes him immune to other forms of damage. That is literally what you said. You make an exception for Galactus' power because... why?
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
BUT NONE OF SAURON'S FEATS IS ENOUGH TO PROVE THAT COULD DEFEAT NK. You are the one exaggerating SAURON'S abilities.
No, I'm literally not. I'm simply not accepting that the Walkers ability to break common steel swords gives him blanket immunity to other forms of damage. The people of Westeros have not tested any other forms of attack against them, and have only confirmed those two. That does not prove that they are immune to all other forms of damage. Negative evidence is not evidence.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Well everyone is wrong! You all are ASSUMING/INVENTING/SPECULATING that the WW are vulnerable to Magic. Which IS NOT SUPPORTED! The COTF and the Green Seers possessed powerful magic, however in no book nor serie is it proven that MAGIC AFFECTS THEM. And the Night King is 2 or 3 as powerful as a Normal Walker. SO PLEASE STOP SPECULATING. BRING EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS.
I present to you, your demand for evidence without providing any yourself, even though it is you that must prove that the White Walker can withstand Sauron's power, not the other way around. Using the feats of breaking ordinary steel does not cover magical weapons or the power of a Maiar. All you have from the show and the books is their ability to shatter common steel swords.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No. Bran who is a greenseer has been seen to be able to WARG people. That is mind manipulation. AND AGAIN YOU ARE SPECULATING THAT. And Bran is young and hasn't master his abilities yet. There were 100s of Greenseers when the first WW came to Westeros. And none prove to be able to mind control WW. Again it's the NIGHT KING we are talking not a normal WW.
And the Night King, who outside of the javelin throw and an ability to jack an untrained and struggling Greenseer in Bran, is effectively featless in every other aspect. We don't even know if he shares the standard White Walkers ability to break steel yet. Shall I list off further assumptions you are making right here and now?
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
They are. Their skin is no normal skin. Normal skin burns and gets pierced by Swords and arrows. According to the Show they were humans. The books take them as a separate specie from men. Also, it is ICE. They've been seen radiating cold from their skins. So it is either ice or just SUPER FROZEN Skin. Either way invulnerable to most materials.
it's superfrozen skin. It's not literal ice. And it's not invulnerable to most materials. It's PROVEN to have a resistance to steel so far and that is LITERALLY it. Do not make that out to be any more than what it is.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Then you are relying on NON BACKED UP Information. You have shown no evidence to back up your claims. I HAVE.
No, you have not/ Not for what you are claiming. And I did provide evidence that Sauron's mace is not ordinary steel nor is it even normal in any sense of the word. You already accepted this, but went on to say that the walker's ability to withstand steel STILL applies for some reason you never explained.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And yet his powers are not Valyrian Steel or Dragonglass, yet you believe that those being the NK's only vulnerabilities makes him immune to other forms of damage. That is literally what you said. You make an exception for Galactus' power because... why? /B]
As i said. Galactus is a cosmic being. Sauron and the NIGHT KING are DUST TO HIM. He can destroy entire planets. So, the reason why is pretty much obvious. Am saying he is immune to what SAURON has in this fight. Again those are the only materials which have been proven to harm him. Any other metal isn't proven. THEREFORE it isn't valid to claim that Sauron's mace will kill him. IT ISN'T BACKED UP.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero No, I'm literally not. I'm simply not accepting that the Walkers ability to break common steel swords gives him blanket immunity to other forms of damage. The people of Westeros have not tested any other forms of attack against them, and have only confirmed those two. That does not prove that they are immune to all other forms of damage. Negative evidence is not evidence.
Again there is no evidence to prove your points. Therefore am not taking them. Again no evidence to back up the idea that the Mace can harm him.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero I present to you, your demand for evidence without providing any yourself, even though it is you that must prove that the White Walker can withstand Sauron's power, not the other way around. Using the feats of breaking ordinary steel does not cover magical weapons or the power of a Maiar. All you have from the show and the books is their ability to shatter common steel swords.
Oh i have shown evidence. The books and the series say ANY METAL EXCEPT Valyrian steel will shatter. Any Metal except VALYRIAN STEEL and DRAGON GLASS has not been proven to harm them. Now you are CHANGING THE WORDS. IT NEVER said COMMON METAL CANT HURT THEM.
The first time the WALKERS came nothing could stop them. We are talking about 8000 Years ago. Back then there was POWERFUL magic, There were MORE DRAGONS, there wasn't a WAR WHICH WEAKENED THE REALMS.
Back then it was the AGE OF HEROES. Heroes like BRANDON STARK, AZZOR AHAI,THE MIGHT DORAN (which defied the GODS) THE GREY KING which slainned the MIGHTY NAGGA. Yet the Other were able to destroy MOST CASTLES. THE LONG NIGHT is said to have reached the VALE or further. Only THE SWORD LIGHTBRINGER COULD BRING DAWN.
Now, that even CHANGES THINGS FURTHER. Cause who is the leader of the OTHERS, the NK. How can the LN be stopped? By defeating the Night King. What was required to end the LN? LIFEBRINGER. Lifebringer wasn't an ordinary Sword, nor an ordinary Valyrian Sword. So, again a special sword is required.
NO EVIDENCE TO SAY THAT SAURON'S WEAPONS CAN HARM HIM.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero And the Night King, who outside of the javelin throw and an ability to jack an untrained and struggling Greenseer in Bran, is effectively featless in every other aspect. We don't even know if he shares the standard White Walkers ability to break steel yet. Shall I list off further assumptions you are making right here and now?
No. NK is more powerful than the Standard WW. I don't see your point.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero it's superfrozen skin. It's not literal ice. And it's not invulnerable to most materials. It's PROVEN to have a resistance to steel so far and that is LITERALLY it. Do not make that out to be any more than what it is.
No evidence to PROVE or DISPROVE that. It could be Ice, it could be SUPER FROZEN SKIN. It doesn't matter, it is invulnerable.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero No, you have not/ Not for what you are claiming. And I did provide evidence that Sauron's mace is not ordinary steel nor is it even normal in any sense of the word. You already accepted this, but went on to say that the walker's ability to withstand steel STILL applies for some reason you never explained.
Oh yes I JUST DID EVEN FURTHER. And your points are sinking.
Sauron's Mace isn't ORDINARY steel but it isnt VALYRIAN NEITHER. Not all swords are made from ORDINARY STEEL. The SWORDS of the AGE OF HEROES werent. AND YET THE HEROES weren't able to stop them TILL LIFEBRINGER.
To me am winning this discussion. You have shown no evidence. I HAVE ONCE MORE.
Originally posted by Sable
Doesn't mean he can't perform same feats at less power.Also the Witch King who is < Sauron
He could make it. Yes HE COULD MAKE VALYRIAN STEEL. Or get OBSIDIAN/DRAGON GLASS.
But since there is no prep time, and the OP SPECIFICALLY said that Sauron only had his mace....THAT OPTION IS OUT.
Originally posted by Sable
Well DSZ has really taken you apart Alex. You seem like a good debater who is open to reason. I suggest you accept his.
I am. REASONABLE. But i can't be reasonable to UNREASONABLE RESPONSES.
WORST. I can't ACCEPT NON-EVIDENCED INFORMATION.
He is being tore appart. I have backed up my responses. HE HASNT.
All he and QUANCHI and others did were to say:
Sauron mace>>>Valyrian steel therefore the NK can die to this other material!
WRONG! AND THERE IS NO EVIDENCE NEITHER TO SAY THAT THE MACE'S MATERIAL>>>VALYRIAN MATERIAL.
I ONLY ALLOWED THEM TO MAKE THAT ASSUMPTION.
So you are telling me him being beaten mercilessly by a weapon so powerful is its taking out multiple ranks of large men fully armored and the night king will laugh off? And you are maintaining he can't use his other powers while in his full power form.
Were is Nemebro for this one.
Also what is the best feat for the night king as of now? A ice spear?
You need to grasp that The Material that makes up the Mace can't harm the WW cause it isn't made the same way nor enchanted with the same spells as VALYRIAN STEEL is.
IT CAN BE STRONGER, OR MORE DURABLE, OR SHARPER, OR ENCHANTED WITH OTHER ENCHANTMENTS, OR TICKER, OR BIGGER.
But it WONT KILL THE WALKERS NOR THE NK CAUSE IT ISN'T VALYRIAN NOR DRAGON GLASS.
YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE TO CLAIM SUCH A THING.
Originally posted by Sable
So you are telling me him being beaten mercilessly by a weapon so powerful is its taking out multiple ranks of large men fully armored and the night king will laugh off? And you are maintaining he can't use his other powers while in his full power form.Were is Nemebro for this one.
Also what is the best feat for the night king as of now? A ice spear?
First of all am not saying he will not be affected by it. BUT DEFINETLY NOT KILLED.
ALSO ISN'T LIKE THE NK WILL JUST LET SAURON BEAT HIM WITHOUT RESPONSE FROM HIS BEHALF.
The NK isn't a stupid ordinary SOLDIER.
Not any ICE SPEAR. A WW ICE SPEAR. Have a WILDING CRAFT an Ice spear and i will shatter to a WALKERS ICE SPEAR.
Also, the ICE SPEAR COULD shatter the MACE. Again i will bring the point just for you to see that the SPEAR/SWORD isn't anything ordinary itself.
But i will not bring that point, so SAURON has a chance.
The creator of the Thread didn't specified nor said that SAURON is in FULL POWER. He said Sauron's Physical form. That is the one shown holding the MACE.
Originally posted by Sable
I can give two examples of said weapons and material which are supposed to be the strongest and most powerful, and indestructible outmatched.Gungir>Thors Hammer
Infinity Gem>Vibranium
OHH OFCOURSE! But those materials are UNDISTRUCTIBLE
Adamantium could hold itself too! BUT THERE IS EVIDENCE TO BACK UP THOSE IDEAS.
THE MACE HAS NONE. THE MACE ISN'T ADAMATIUM NOR VIBRANIUM.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
OHH OFCOURSE! But those materials are UNDISTRUCTIBLEAdamantium could hold itself too! BUT THERE IS EVIDENCE TO BACK UP THOSE IDEAS.
THE MACE HAS NONE. THE MACE ISN'T ADAMATIUM NOR VIBRANIUM.
Not undestructible, but not DESTROYED easily. Atleast not with any other material. IT IS REQUIRED ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF ENERGY TO DESTROY THOSE MATERIALS.
THE NK doesn't have that, so therefore they are UNDESTRUCTIBLE for the NK.