Why would Sauron just stand there and allow him to be hit, he can stop it multiple ways, break it mid air with TK, smash it with his mace mid air. Throw up a barrier. etc etc.
The mace was imbued with his power through the Ring of Power.
Sauron in Physical form, is his most powerful form. Hence everyone shitting bricks.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
OHH OFCOURSE! But those materials are UNDISTRUCTIBLEAdamantium could hold itself too! BUT THERE IS EVIDENCE TO BACK UP THOSE IDEAS.
THE MACE HAS NONE. THE MACE ISN'T ADAMATIUM NOR VIBRANIUM.
Adamentium would not up to an infinity gem, even though its said to be indestructible, because its outclassed by a higher power.
The Ring of Power is a higher power and enchantment then valerian still, this is undeniable.
Originally posted by Sable
Why would Sauron just stand there and allow him to be hit, he can stop it multiple ways, break it mid air with TK, smash it with his mace mid air. Throw up a barrier. etc etc.The mace was imbued with his power through the Ring of Power.
Sauron in Physical form, is his most powerful form. Hence everyone shitting bricks.
Both won't stand there allowing the other to hit themselves.
TK? Sauron Physical form has TK? Where is that shown?
Okay we won't discuss how they will fight each other. There are different ways they could attack/defend themselves.
We are just discussing their abilities.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Both won't stand there allowing the other to hit themselves.TK? Sauron Physical form has TK? Where is that shown?
Okay we won't discuss how they will fight each other. There are different ways they could attack/defend themselves.
We are just discussing their abilities.
Why would he not have access to all his power while having access to the ring, when he has access to TK and many other powers without it, its non sensical he doesn't have all his powers while wearing the ring the source of all his unimaginable powers.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Not undestructible, but not DESTROYED easily. Atleast not with any other material. IT IS REQUIRED ENORMOUS AMOUNTS OF ENERGY TO DESTROY THOSE MATERIALS.THE NK doesn't have that, so therefore they are UNDESTRUCTIBLE for the NK.
But you are saying he cannot be killed without to said plot items that rank way down on the food chain from Ring of Power.
I have to go, bbl.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
As i said. Galactus is a cosmic being. Sauron and the NIGHT KING are DUST TO HIM. He can destroy entire planets. So, the reason why is pretty much obvious. Am saying he is immune to what SAURON has in this fight. Again those are the only materials which have been proven to harm him. Any other metal isn't proven. THEREFORE it isn't valid to claim that Sauron's mace will kill him. IT ISN'T BACKED UP.
No, again, you are relying on a no limit fallacy. Look it up. And you are asking me to prove a negative.
You need to prove the Nights king can withstand more than common steel. I don';t have to prove Sauron has the power to smash through your theoretical limitless defense. Because you are basing the Walkers and the NK's ability to withstand more than steel on absolutely nothing but conjecture in an attempt to attribute more than that to their defense.
Now, prove that the Night King can withstand Sauron's mace. And if you say it's because they shatter common steel, I will laugh and point out that Sauron's Mace is not ordinary steel, thus your defense is irrelevant.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Again there is no evidence to prove your points. Therefore am not taking them. Again no evidence to back up the idea that the Mace can harm him.
Except that the mace is not ordinary steel, and there is no reason to assume the blasts of power would not work just as well against them as they do on humans and immortal elves.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Oh i have shown evidence. The books and the series say ANY METAL EXCEPT Valyrian steel will shatter. Any Metal except VALYRIAN STEEL and DRAGON GLASS has not been proven to harm them. Now you are CHANGING THE WORDS. IT NEVER said COMMON METAL CANT HURT THEM.The first time the WALKERS came nothing could stop them. We are talking about 8000 Years ago. Back then there was POWERFUL magic, There were MORE DRAGONS, there wasn't a WAR WHICH WEAKENED THE REALMS.
Back then it was the AGE OF HEROES. Heroes like BRANDON STARK, AZZOR AHAI,THE MIGHT DORAN (which defied the GODS) THE GREY KING which slainned the MIGHTY NAGGA. Yet the Other were able to destroy MOST CASTLES. THE LONG NIGHT is said to have reached the VALE or further. Only THE SWORD LIGHTBRINGER COULD BRING DAWN.
Now, that even CHANGES THINGS FURTHER. Cause who is the leader of the OTHERS, the NK. How can the LN be stopped? By defeating the Night King. What was required to end the LN? LIFEBRINGER. Lifebringer wasn't an ordinary Sword, nor an ordinary Valyrian Sword. So, again a special sword is required.NO EVIDENCE TO SAY THAT SAURON'S WEAPONS CAN HARM HIM.
Where does it say any? Where does it say ONLY Valyrian Steel and Dragonglass? The assumption is simply this - those are the only weapons shown to work THUS FAR, and does not account for materials from other worlds, nor does it account for the powers enchanted to it, or the powers of the wielder. Now, instead of trying to argue for a position you can't prove, especially since the Night's King has not been seen in combat outside of one Javelin Throw, hows about you let this go? Until season 8 wraps up, this entire debate is conjecture anyway, stop arguing a point you can't prove.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No. NK is more powerful than the Standard WW. I don't see your point.
You have no way to know that. Nobody does. The only thing you can claim is that he is a better NECROMANCER than a standard Walker. and perhaps a stronger throwing arm.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No evidence to PROVE or DISPROVE that. It could be Ice, it could be SUPER FROZEN SKIN. It doesn't matter, it is invulnerable.
The proof is what he was before. I don;t need to prove any more than that.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Oh yes I JUST DID EVEN FURTHER. And your points are sinking.Sauron's Mace isn't ORDINARY steel but it isnt VALYRIAN NEITHER. Not all swords are made from ORDINARY STEEL. The SWORDS of the AGE OF HEROES werent. AND YET THE HEROES weren't able to stop them TILL LIFEBRINGER.
To me am winning this discussion. You have shown no evidence. I HAVE ONCE MORE.
My point is sinking? Ok, stop right there... You never had a point to begin with. I do not need to sink yours since you never had anything bar an assumption based on in universe opinion that does not account for outside of context variables.
Every sword we saw in the show used against the Walkers that shattered (This is what your thesis relies upon) was common castle forged steel (Samwell's sword) or Iron (Thenn Axe), or Brass (Common Wildling and First Men weapons).
If you want to say that the swords Dawn or Lightbringer work against the Walkers, neither of which are valyrian Steel or Dragonglass, then you've already brought your defense undone by your own hand.
Originally posted by Sable
Why would he not have access to all his power while having access to the ring, when he has access to TK and many other powers without it, its non sensical he doesn't have all his powers while wearing the ring.
No. His Spirit form showed that. His physical hasn't.
Else he would have levitated all those troops like he did with Gandalf.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
No, again, you are relying on a no limit fallacy. Look it up. And you are asking me to prove a negative.You need to prove the Nights king can withstand more than common steel. I don';t have to prove Sauron has the power to smash through your theoretical limitless defense. Because you are basing the Walkers and the NK's ability to withstand more than steel on absolutely nothing but conjecture in an attempt to attribute more than that to their defense.
Again with your same crap. I don't need to prove it cause it has already been stated and proven through the several seasons and books? Have you even watched them?
No of course you have. Else it's just your beliefs and words against my evidence! Mace isn't valyrian=alive NO. PERIOD.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero Now, prove that the Night King can withstand Sauron's mace. And if you say it's because they shatter common steel, I will laugh and point out that Sauron's Mace is not ordinary steel, thus your defense is irrelevant.[/B]
Well because if the made doesn't shatter neither will the NKs Sword. The Sword didn't shatter to Valyrian steel why shouldn't to the Have? And also because the Mace Can't kill the NK.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero Except that the mace is not ordinary steel, and there is no reason to assume the blasts of power would not work just as well against them as they do on humans and immortal elves.[/B]
Humans and Immortal Elves which are vulnerable to things the WW aren't.
. Irrelevant comparison,
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero Where does it say any? Where does it say ONLY Valyrian Steel and Dragonglass? The assumption is simply this - those are the only weapons shown to work THUS FAR, and does not account for materials from other worlds, nor does it account for the powers enchanted to it, or the powers of the wielder. Now, instead of trying to argue for a position you can't prove, especially since the Night's King has not been seen in combat outside of one Javelin Throw, hows about you let this go? Until season 8 wraps up, this entire debate is conjecture anyway, stop arguing a point you can't prove.[/B]
Just as there is no evidence to prove that I can't kill him there is no evidence it can!!! But I honestly don't see why the Mace is any special as to kill him. Thus far still say that those are the only materials that can! You have no evidence that the Mace will make it into the list!
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero You have no way to know that. Nobody does. The only thing you can claim is that he is a better NECROMANCER than a standard Walker. and perhaps a stronger throwing arm.[/B]
No! The NK was the first Walker and the king of them all. He is 12000 years old. He is smarter, a better warrior, a stronger and more magical walker. Also all walkers came from him. He came from the Children of the forest. He was made by pure powerful magic. So he is strong! Stronger than the standard WW.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero My point is sinking? Ok, stop right there... You never had a point to begin with. I do not need to sink yours since you never had anything bar an assumption based on in universe opinion that does not account for outside of context variables.Every sword we saw in the show used against the Walkers that shattered (This is what your thesis relies upon) was common castle forged steel (Samwell's sword) or Iron (Thenn Axe), or Brass (Common Wildling and First Men weapons).
If you want to say that the swords Dawn or Lightbringer work against the Walkers, neither of which are valyrian Steel or Dragonglass, then you've already brought your defense undone by your own hand. [/B]
First of all! You are the only one who doesn't have a point!
I have shown evidenced. You have defended yourself by claims of Sauron being so powerful and magical! You have based your discussion on your ideas and beliefs rather than on info.
Where did it say that Lifebringer wasn't Valyrian? Who told you that? Your link doesn't say it wasn't Valyrian! Besides in No Book nor Season that is mentioned. I've read them and watch them all.
And once more your points are sinking! Bring actual info and not only your beliefs and your expectations.
LETS BE FAIR THEN.
As Saber said, am a REASONABLE man.
Lets use math since it seems evidence and logic isn't working. ( Cause Dark's Love for Sauron Blinds Him)
There is NO EVIDENCE TO Say that The Mace will be able to kill the NK. NOR there is EVIDENCE that it CAN'T.
MATHEMATICS would put the probability of the MACE being able to kill the WALKER at 50-50
So the probability of SAURON winning this match is limitted to 50%
Now, once more we need to ask OURSELVES what is the provability of SAURON winning the MATCH IF NK can die to the MACE.
The NK is a good swordsman and a good soldier. He can still defend himself pretty well i say. Also he has super strenght.
Now, i'll give you the benefit of the DOUBT and say that in that case SAURON WINS by a bit.
Chances are 30-70.
BUT. Since it is limitted within the 50% margin of probability of Sauron being able to harm the NK, then the PROBABILTY OF SAURON TO WIN IS OF: approx 40%
EVEN if the PROBABILITY IS 100. Then again the PROBABILITY OF SAURON TO WIN THIS MATCH IS OF 50% (Which is 100% unlikely since the NK is no fool nor no COMMON FOE)
As you can see my fellow friends. THE NK has an advantage!
SO NOW PLEASE GO AND FIX YOUR IRRATIONAL VOTES!!
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Again with your same crap. I don't need to prove it cause it has already been stated and proven through the several seasons and books? Have you even watched them?No of course you have. Else it's just your beliefs and words against my evidence! Mace isn't valyrian=alive NO. PERIOD.
Your the one that turned this into circular reasoning. I wanted you to point out specifically where in the show or the books it says the Walkers are ONLY vulnerable to those 2 things. And not from a flawed perspective of a character who can be wrong, but from the omnicient narrator.
Hint, you cannot do this, because it does not exist.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Well because if the made doesn't shatter neither will the NKs Sword. The Sword didn't shatter to Valyrian steel why shouldn't to the Have? And also because the Mace Can't kill the NK.
I never said the mace would shatter the ice sword... I said it would be more than capable of killing the Night King.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Humans and Immortal Elves which are vulnerable to things the WW aren't.
. Irrelevant comparison,
Lol, alright then, if you want to go that route, explain to me HOW and WHY the Walkers and NK are only Vulnerable to Valyrian Steel and Dragonglass then. I know why, but lets see if you can keep up and follow a point.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Just as there is no evidence to prove that I can't kill him there is no evidence it can!!! But I honestly don't see why the Mace is any special as to kill him. Thus far still say that those are the only materials that can! You have no evidence that the Mace will make it into the list!
Because the mace has shown demonstrable power, and is wielded by a Maiar, an Ainur who can manipulate their own immortal flame to harness their power. A maiar is essentially the analog of an Angel, or a lesser god.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No! The NK was the first Walker and the king of them all. He is 12000 years old. He is smarter, a better warrior, a stronger and more magical walker. Also all walkers came from him. He came from the Children of the forest. He was made by pure powerful magic. So he is strong! Stronger than the standard WW.
But you cannot demonstrate any of that in any meaningful way. Do you see what I mean about making assumptions? I enjoy the storytelling as much as anyone here. i do, BUT, in a debate where you can make leaps based off of suppositions but you only do it for one side is very unfair and not a reasonable form of debating. Because your slanting the debate in your favor by doing that.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
First of all! You are the only one who doesn't have a point!I have shown evidenced. You have defended yourself by claims of Sauron being so powerful and magical! You have based your discussion on your ideas and beliefs rather than on info.
Where did it say that Lifebringer wasn't Valyrian? Who told you that? Your link doesn't say it wasn't Valyrian! Besides in No Book nor Season that is mentioned. I've read them and watch them all.
And once more your points are sinking! Bring actual info and not only your beliefs and your expectations.
You made the claim, not I, thus you have to prove the point, not I. I didn't say the night king was invulnerable, you did, and thus you have to prove it is so, I do not have to disprove it by rule of logic - IE: I don't have to prove a negative.
Nothing I've told you has been an assumption. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Sauron Read that if you have not read the books or seen the 6 Jackson films.
Lightbringer was a sword forged thousands of years before Valyria was even a thing. Compared to the first Long Night, the rise of the freehold was relatively recent. You should KNOW that.
I am going to repeat the same to you, with one additional caveat. If you keep repeating the same tired old argument to me without direct proof of your claims, I will not do anything bar accept your concession, because I came here to talk and debate, not have a circular argument with a stubborn newbie who can't seem to grasp the difference between specific defense and blanket damage immunity.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Your the one that turned this into circular reasoning. I wanted you to point out specifically where in the show or the books it says the Walkers are ONLY vulnerable to those 2 things. And not from a flawed perspective of a character who can be wrong, but from the omnicient narrator.Hint, you cannot do this, because it does not exist.
I never said the mace would shatter the ice sword... I said it would be more than capable of killing the Night King.
Lol, alright then, if you want to go that route, explain to me HOW and WHY the Walkers and NK are only Vulnerable to Valyrian Steel and Dragonglass then. I know why, but lets see if you can keep up and follow a point.
Because the mace has shown demonstrable power, and is wielded by a Maiar, an Ainur who can manipulate their own immortal flame to harness their power. A maiar is essentially the analog of an Angel, or a lesser god.
But you cannot demonstrate any of that in any meaningful way. Do you see what I mean about making assumptions? I enjoy the storytelling as much as anyone here. i do, BUT, in a debate where you can make leaps based off of suppositions but you only do it for one side is very unfair and not a reasonable form of debating. Because your slanting the debate in your favor by doing that.
You made the claim, not I, thus you have to prove the point, not I. I didn't say the night king was invulnerable, you did, and thus you have to prove it is so, I do not have to disprove it by rule of logic - IE: I don't have to prove a negative.
Nothing I've told you has been an assumption. http://lotr.wikia.com/wiki/Sauron Read that if you have not read the books or seen the 6 Jackson films.
Lightbringer was a sword forged thousands of years before Valyria was even a thing. Compared to the first Long Night, the rise of the freehold was relatively recent. You should KNOW that.
I am going to repeat the same to you, with one additional caveat. If you keep repeating the same tired old argument to me without direct proof of your claims, I will not do anything bar accept your concession, because I came here to talk and debate, not have a circular argument with a stubborn newbie who can't seem to grasp the difference between specific defense and blanket damage immunity.
Read the ABOVE reply. Cause I think i was finally able to CLOSE THIS THREAD!!!
NO MATTER HOW MUCH EVIDENCE I BRING YOU YOU'LL STILL BE AS STUBBORN AS A DEAD GIANT!!
I COULD SITE YOU THE ENTIRE ASOIF AND YOU'D STILL CLAIM MY EVIDENCE UNPROVEN.
Originally posted by Josh_AlexanderQuit with the no limits fallacy. It's poor form in debating and has no relevance here. I've already explained why and you keep repeating yourself and this fallacy.
Above it maybe. But isn't the same material.So it SHOULDNT affect the Night King. Doesn't matter if the material is stronger, or makes it stronger, or denser, or thicker, or sharper, or bigger. It isn't Valyrian steel.
Originally posted by Josh_AlexanderYou just repeat yourself but I've already rebutted this logic. That's the only things that can destroy white walkers in their universe but this doesn't apply to outside universes.
HEY QUANCHI! Oh case closed. Find a way to math out the odds of Sauron Winning. He loses by the way. HEHE.MAN ILL GET A HEADACHE!
Originally posted by quanchi112
You just repeat yourself but I've already rebutted this logic. That's the only things that can destroy white walkers in their universe but this doesn't apply to outside universes.
Read my MATH reply. IT ANSWERS EVERYTHING!
AND I DON'T HAVE TO BE DEALING WITH YOUR NATIONALITIES.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
LETS BE FAIR THEN.As Saber said, am a REASONABLE man.
Lets use math since it seems evidence and logic isn't working. ( Cause Dark's Love for Sauron Blinds Him)
There is NO EVIDENCE TO Say that The Mace will be able to kill the NK. NOR there is EVIDENCE that it CAN'T.
MATHEMATICS would put the probability of the MACE being able to kill the WALKER at 50-50
So the probability of SAURON winning this match is limitted to 50%
Now, once more we need to ask OURSELVES what is the provability of SAURON winning the MATCH IF NK can die to the MACE.
The NK is a good swordsman and a good soldier. He can still defend himself pretty well i say. Also he has super strenght.
Now, i'll give you the benefit of the DOUBT and say that in that case SAURON WINS by a bit.
Chances are 30-70.
BUT. Since it is limitted within the 50% margin of probability of Sauron being able to harm the NK, then the PROBABILTY OF SAURON TO WIN IS OF: approx 40%
EVEN if the PROBABILITY IS 100. Then again the PROBABILITY OF SAURON TO WIN THIS MATCH IS OF 50% (Which is 100% unlikely since the NK is no fool nor no COMMON FOE)
As you can see my fellow friends. THE NK has an advantage!
SO NOW PLEASE GO AND FIX YOUR IRRATIONAL VOTES!!
there it is.