Originally posted by KingD19
No, that's exactly what it means based on the rules. Oberyn only used Manticore Venom, which means he only has Manticore Venom. We don't say Jon killed someone with Longclaw before he got the sword because hd didn't. So we can't say Oberyn used poisons he clearly didn't use.It's a moot point though, as it took forever for Mountain to go down. And Azog is not only more powerful than him in every way, but there's no proof the venom will even work on him. Orcs and Uruk's are essentially birthed from a corrupted sack of goop.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
And on top of this, if we do use book lore, they are essentially the decendants of tortured and corrupted Elves, so.... yeah, that.
No. Oberyn had many Venoms in his closet! That doesnt mean he had to make them. Once again, the type of venom he used against the Mountain was a slow one!
Oberyn intentionally used a slow poison to give time for a confession! Furthermore, Oberyn's history says he studied in the Citadel and learnt about a quite bunch of poisons.
That is HISTORY! Just because we didnt got a WHOLE EPISODE of Oberyn in GoT it doesnt mean Oberyn is no one with no history behind his character.
Once more, Oberyn could use a Faster poison if needed.
Either way, lets say Oberyn goes for the slow one, it shall still be enough to bring down Azog!
He is not fully armored. A pinch at the arms or legs should do the trick.
No. There is no evidence to point that Orcs are immune to poison.
Originally posted by Thorne
azog still got ****ed up by a dwarfoberyn wins
Oakenshield was one of the best fighters that race ever produced. All you need to look at is the entire fight throughout Erebor against Smaug. Oberyn would have been either munched or torched.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No. Oberyn had many Venoms in his closet! That doesnt mean he had to make them. Once again, the type of venom he used against the Mountain was a slow one!
That is the only one he chooses to use, according to the commentary and the historical log. If you wanted to use Jackson's commentary on the numbers in one thread, then completely disregard Oberyn's own word on what poison he uses, then you have deliberately chosen to be hypocritical.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Oberyn intentionally used a slow poison to give time for a confession! Furthermore, Oberyn's history says he studied in the Citadel and learnt about a quite bunch of poisons.
That doesn't mean he uses any of those for combat.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
That is HISTORY! Just because we didnt got a WHOLE EPISODE of Oberyn in GoT it doesnt mean Oberyn is no one with no history behind his character.
See above, he never used other poisons in combat. Why should we assume he uses any others for this fight then?
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Once more, Oberyn could use a Faster poison if needed.
Except you cannot prove that.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Either way, lets say Oberyn goes for the slow one, it shall still be enough to bring down Azog!
Not before Azog rips him to peices. The Orc is a whole lot stronger than Gregor, and considerably faster. Not to mention more battle experienced.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
He is not fully armored. A pinch at the arms or legs should do the trick.
Consider this. Azog has survived nicks and far hardier wounds than nicks before. orcs have an unbelievable constitution and pain tolerance threshold. What makes you think Oberyn's little flesh wounds are going to slow Azog down immediately? The answer is they will not.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
No. There is no evidence to point that Orcs are immune to poison.
There is no need to be. The poison takes too long to take effect. The immediate pain from the wounds arn't going to slow Azog down in the least, and the Orc only needs a single blow to end Oberyn, who wears light boiled leather for armor. Azog's mace, or even his blade arm will end Oberyn much more effectively than Gregor's sword and headcrush.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Oakenshield was one of the best fighters that race ever produced. All you need to look at is the entire fight throughout Erebor against Smaug. Oberyn would have been either munched or torched.That is the only one he chooses to use, according to the commentary and the historical log. If you wanted to use Jackson's commentary on the numbers in one thread, then completely disregard Oberyn's own word on what poison he uses, then you have deliberately chosen to be hypocritical.
That doesn't mean he uses any of those for combat.
See above, he never used other poisons in combat. Why should we assume he uses any others for this fight then?
Except you cannot prove that.
Not before Azog rips him to peices. The Orc is a whole lot stronger than Gregor, and considerably faster. Not to mention more battle experienced.
Consider this. Azog has survived nicks and far hardier wounds than nicks before. orcs have an unbelievable constitution and pain tolerance threshold. What makes you think Oberyn's little flesh wounds are going to slow Azog down immediately? The answer is they will not.
There is no need to be. The poison takes too long to take effect. The immediate pain from the wounds arn't going to slow Azog down in the least, and the Orc only needs a single blow to end Oberyn, who wears light boiled leather for armor. Azog's mace, or even his blade arm will end Oberyn much more effectively than Gregor's sword and headcrush.
Never bring such comment on a Thread. It COMPLETELY WEAKENS your points and fragiles your discussion. To say, "He is the best, he is unstoppable, he is the strongest orc". That doesnt mean he will win a fight against another character. As an advice, it only makes you look like a fanatic.
Okay lets leave the fast poison out, although i could revoke your points and keep arguing all day long i shall leave it for the sake of discussion.
Physical damage and chemical/biological intoxication arent the same! His bigger and faster constitution makes it easier for the poison to spread through his body. Saying he will tolerate the venom is irresponsible! The poison also makes him dissy and attacks the brain. He might also feel fatigued! In conclusion a longer venom is STILL A VENOM. Oberyn just has to buy time to let it work!
Oberyn ISNT FIGHTING THE MOUNTAIN! he DOESNT NEED a confesion. He doesnt need to let him live, nor to behave stupidly! Oberyn will have a clear mind! Azog ISNT FASTER than Oberyn! Oberyn will dodge and evade him all match till the Poison works. Then you have a dead orc PERIOD.
Again i always choose the sides with more advantages.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Never bring such comment on a Thread. It COMPLETELY WEAKENS your points and fragiles your discussion. To say, "He is the best, he is unstoppable, he is the strongest orc". That doesnt mean he will win a fight against another character. As an advice, it only makes you look like a fanatic.
Thats not what I said. Do not Ever put words in my mouth. I never even said anything close to that.
Also, this proves, without a shadow of a doubt, that you do not even read what people post, and instead resort to ad hominem strawmen and red herring attacks. Thus, this will be the last time I treat anything you say seriously ever again... I tried to debate with you normally, but this is the straw that broke this camel's back dude. I cannot trust you to read what I say anymore.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Okay lets leave the fast poison out, although i could revoke your points and keep arguing all day long i shall leave it for the sake of discussion.
I simply dispute the use of any poison other than the one he was shown to use.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Physical damage and chemical/biological intoxication arent the same! His bigger and faster constitution makes it easier for the poison to spread through his body. Saying he will tolerate the venom is irresponsible! The poison also makes him dissy and attacks the brain. He might also feel fatigued! [B]In conclusion a longer venom is STILL A VENOM. Oberyn just has to buy time to let it work!
Bull. You do not know the meaning of the word constitution then. It's the body's capability to resist foreign bodies such as disease, poison, and venom. It could take hours to days for the effect of the venom to work, and Oberyn has only moments. Venom means nothing when you are impaled or bludgeoned to death. And that's assuming he'll hit Azog at all.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Oberyn ISNT FIGHTING THE MOUNTAIN! he DOESNT NEED a confesion. He doesnt need to let him live, nor to behave stupidly! Oberyn will have a clear mind! Azog ISNT FASTER than Oberyn! Oberyn will dodge and evade him all match till the Poison works. Then you have a dead orc PERIOD.
I want you to demonstrate Oberyn fight in this way then, from the show, as the rules demand. Hell, even if we let book stuff in here, there is nothing to say how Oberyn actually fights in direct combat other than his fight with Gregor. You can't attribute a feat or a skill to a man who has not demonstrated it for us to examine. All he have to go on then is vague interpretation and assumption.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Again i always choose the sides with more advantages.
No, you choose the side you favor the most, and you do not listen to, or even bother to read the posts of anyone who disagrees. For this reason, I will not treat you as a serious debater any further until such a time as you can actually provide proof of your assertions in a sufficient manner, or concede the points you refuse to argue.
~Good day to you, from DSZ~
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Thats not what I said. Do not [b]Ever put words in my mouth. I never even said anything close to that. [/B]
Do you take me for a fool!!!???
Darkstorm Zero:
Oakenshield was one of the best fighters that race ever produced. All you need to look at is the entire fight throughout Erebor against Smaug. Oberyn would have been either munched or torched.
Read your own words!
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero Also, this proves, without a shadow of a doubt, that you do not even read what people post, and instead resort to ad hominem strawmen and red herring attacks. Thus, this will be the last time I treat anything you say seriously ever again... I tried to debate with you normally, but this is the straw that broke this camel's back dude. I cannot trust you to read what I say anymore.[/B]
This proves you dont even READ what you words!
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero Bull. You do not know the meaning of the word constitution then. It's the body's capability to resist foreign bodies such as disease, poison, and venom. It could take hours to days for the effect of the venom to work, and Oberyn has only moments. Venom means nothing when you are impaled or bludgeoned to death. And that's assuming he'll hit Azog at all.[/B]
Body constitution are the characteristics of the body! Are you sure you know the meaning of the word? It could take half an hour or hours to die, however the side effects can take minutes!!!!!! Azog will get dissy, headaques....All the symptoms associated with the venom! And Oberyn can get the time, i dont have a doubt about that!
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero I want you to demonstrate Oberyn fight in this way then, from the show, as the rules demand. Hell, even if we let book stuff in here, there is nothing to say how Oberyn actually fights in direct combat other than his fight with Gregor. You can't attribute a feat or a skill to a man who has not demonstrated it for us to examine. All he have to go on then is vague interpretation and assumption.[/B]
He doesnt fight as stupidly as he did against the Mountain i can assure you that! He was COMPLETELY IRRESPONSIBLE when he got close to the Mountain to try bring out the Confession! The Mountain was already doomed! Dont be a fool! The show didnt spent much on its secondary characters! But it is SURE Oberyn doesnt fight with everyone trying to get confessions from them!
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero No, you choose the side you favor the most, and you do not listen to, or even bother to read the posts of anyone who disagrees. For this reason, I will not treat you as a serious debater any further until such a time as you can actually provide proof of your assertions in a sufficient manner, or concede the points you refuse to argue.~Good day to you, from DSZ~ [/B]
If i were to choose the side i favor the most there would be no way i could stand a chance against you stubborn people! I would participate in every thread just for the sake of supporting my favorite characters!
I dont care if you or anyone takes me serious or not. As long as i have evidence and proofs to reboke your points am a formidable debater!
I think before replying! I dont let feelings nor fanaticism get into me, thats what makes me a FORMIDABLE Debater!
You should try it some time.
Good day to you too.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Why don't you challenge DSZ to a BZ then to see if you are really a "formidable debater" beyond that being your own opinion of yourself.
What?
Lol, am sorry if you dont seem to be able to outmatch me in a debate.
Its not my problem you guys dont consider both sides before posting a reply!
Like you supporting Wolverine although you know he gets butchered
Dont get me wrong! I am a greater Marvel fan than am a GoT one! Yet i still pick reason over fanaticism. If you havent notice, i have a marvel character as my profile pic, that should proof enough that i am a fair discusser, not a fanatic one!
As i said, i dont consider myself a bad debater, its not my fault in the end that you can cope with me!
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
What?Lol, am sorry if you dont seem to be able to outmatch me in a debate.
Its not my problem you guys dont consider both sides before posting a reply!
Like you supporting Wolverine although you know he gets butchered
Dont get me wrong! I am a greater Marvel fan than am a GoT one! Yet i still pick reason over fanaticism. If you havent notice, i have a marvel character as my profile pic, that should proof enough that i am a fair discusser, not a fanatic one!
As i said, i dont consider myself a bad debater, its not my fault in the end that you can cope with me!
Lol. Don't be mad.
I simply said that you should prove yourself so that your opinion of yourself is more than just that. Don't see why you seem very defensive about. /shrug
Originally posted by Nibedicus
Lol. Don't be mad.I simply said that you should prove yourself so that your opinion of yourself is more than just that. Don't see why you seem very defensive about. /shrug
Am not defensive at all, i just got to reply 😉
Naah, Dark is a good debater, it doesnt have to get personal.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Am not defensive at all, i just got to reply 😉Naah, Dark is a good debater, it doesnt have to get personal.
A BZ is not personal. It's a way to prove one's position within a judged environment so that ppl don't go back and forth pointlessly.
Best, however, not to pack oneself in the back unless you and your views have been tested (hell not even then, humility is always a good thing). How old are you? You seem very young.
Originally posted by Nibedicus
A BZ is not personal. It's a way to prove one's position within a judged environment so that ppl don't go back and forth pointlessly.Best, however, not to pack oneself in the back unless you and your views have been tested (hell not even then, humility is always a good thing). How old are you? You seem very young.
Hmmm i have never participated in such myself...Am alien to it. I dont like what i dont know, and i dont reply on things i dont know.
Age is relative, age is a lie.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Do you take me for a fool!!!???Darkstorm Zero:
Read your own words!
What does Thorin Oakenshield have to do with orcs then? What does that comment , one I provided evidence for in the Smaug fight, suddenly make my argument weak? You have no consistency on your rebuke and furthermore you insult my intelligence.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
This proves you dont even READ what you words!
Oh I do. You just don't form anything resembling coherent and rational responses. So much so you throw out insulting drivel and expect me to sit there and take your shit.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
Body constitution are the characteristics of the body! Are you sure you know the meaning of the word? It could take half an hour or hours to die, [B]however the side effects can take minutes!!!!!! Azog will get dissy, headaques....All the symptoms associated with the venom! And Oberyn can get the time, i dont have a doubt about that!
Give me evidence these are symptoms of Manticore venom. I'm not going to take you at your word any further, so show me the evidence.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
He doesnt fight as stupidly as he did against the Mountain i can assure you that! He was COMPLETELY IRRESPONSIBLE when he got close to the Mountain to try bring out the Confession! The Mountain was already doomed! Dont be a fool! The show didnt spent much on its secondary characters! But it is SURE Oberyn doesnt fight with everyone trying to get confessions from them!
Again, give me evidence, not empty words. If you cannot do this, at least have the testicular fortitude to admit it.
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
If i were to choose the side i favor the most there would be no way i could stand a chance against you stubborn people! I would participate in every thread just for the sake of supporting my favorite characters!I dont care if you or anyone takes me serious or not. As long as i have evidence and proofs to reboke your points am a formidable debater!
Except you have never once shown evidence for anything you have ever said in any thread you have participated in! You have literally spun the wheels of threads for pages in your stubbornness
Originally posted by Josh_Alexander
I think before replying! I dont let feelings nor fanaticism get into me, thats what makes me a FORMIDABLE Debater!You should try it some time.
Good day to you too.
I literally could not give less of a f**k about what you think you do before replying if I tried.
Imagine the tiny genitalia of an ant rubbing up against the giant labial folds of a blue whale. That is how much of a f**k I do not have to give you.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
What does Thorin Oakenshield have to do with orcs then? What does that comment , one I provided evidence for in the Smaug fight, suddenly make my argument weak? You have no consistency on your rebuke and furthermore you insult my intelligence.Oh I do. You just don't form anything resembling coherent and rational responses. So much so you throw out insulting drivel and expect me to sit there and take your shit.
You really want to 'hit and run' here?
I quote and you say:
"Oakenshield was one of the best fighters that race ever produced.
You are the Hit and Run type of guys huh!?
"All you need to look at is the entire fight throughout Erebor against Smaug. Oberyn would have been either munched or torched."
You are the Hit and Run type of guys huh!? A clear sign of Fanaticism and Favoritism. You use Oakenshield as to say that Oakenshield is such a Great warror, he is so majestic, so powerful...Blah Blah Blah!!! Then you try to bring Oberyn to the statement. In that moment it's clear you use Oakenshield as a back channel to say that Azog beats Oberyn because he beats Oakenshield.
Your FANATICISM IS ASTONISHING! And the worst is that you take me for a fool, and try to say this doesn't belong to the thread and has nothing to do with it. Well then WHY THE F*** do you even bring the topic!? THAT IS CLEARLY BREAKING OF FORUM RULES! This thread doesn't CONCERN Oakenshield!
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero Give me evidence these are symptoms of Manticore venom. I'm not going to take you at your word any further, so show me the evidence.Again, give me evidence, not empty words. If you cannot do this, at least have the testicular fortitude to admit it.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Poison
http://non-aliencreatures.wikia.com/wiki/Manticore_(Game_of_Thrones)
Giving you evidence so i can further SMASH your points is a pleasure!!! It clearly says that the venom causes extreme agony! When i said dissiness
headaches etc, i was just generalizing. Since you asked for evidence there you got it! Azog will ****ing have agony all the way before his dead! IRREFUTABLE PROOFS!
Furthermore! It also says in the second link that Oberyn INTENTIONALLY TAMPERED with the venom to make the Venom delay longer when fighting Ser Gregor! That means that the venom is naturally a fast killer! That means that Oberyn can use a faster venom! HAHAHA. See!? You sunk more into the dung for asking for proofs!!!
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero
Except you have never once shown evidence for anything you have ever said in any thread you have participated in! You have literally spun the wheels of threads for pages in your stubbornness[/B]
You are really an idiot!
I only bring evidence when asked to. Isn't like i lie or i bring topics without proof like YOU! I've always given evidence when needed. Like i just did.
The only stubborn Fanatic here is you my friend.
Originally posted by Darkstorm Zero I literally could not give less of a f**k about what you think you do before replying if I tried.Imagine the tiny genitalia of an ant rubbing up against the giant labial folds of a blue whale. That is how much of a f**k I do not have to give you. [/B]
Lol!
Don't worry DarkStorm Zero, its common for people who can't defend their points to use personal harming comments.
You should know me better by now! Personal comments just weakens your points...But i guess you are just learning your way through debate.
Originally posted by Josh_AlexanderThat's why we don't argue based off the books unless you're in the foreign cinema. Otherwise it's too much wiggle room. My point is with all of these guys I only argue based off what they do not all the possibilities that way the parameters are understood and we can't go off the radar.
Hum.I dont agree with that. A character is able to use his abilities although it wasnt seen on screen, specially if the OP didnt specify.
GoT didnt Show A LOT OF THINGS FROM ASOIF but that doesnt mean it isnt there. Simply they couldnt put everything in the shows...too little episodes..
But it doesnt mean Oberyn only has 1 poison.
Originally posted by quanchi112
That's why we don't argue based off the books unless you're in the foreign cinema. Otherwise it's too much wiggle room. My point is with all of these guys I only argue based off what they do not all the possibilities that way the parameters are understood and we can't go off the radar.
As i said you can't ignore the background info of a character. Although We didn't got the stories of Oberyn in the Show it doesn't mean Oberyn is just another common fighter.
What am saying is, that in this specific case, that rule doesn't match since then you are taking Oberyn as a ghost who just appeared in one episode who has no info to back up his character.
It's like saying Oberyn is just Oberyn. You are not taking it as if Oberyn is the Red Viper (The mighty Dornish Warrior who uses poison and has never lost a fight).
See my point? It would destroy Oberyn's character if we limit him to Screen only info.
Originally posted by Josh_AlexanderWe have to adhere to the rules of that forum. This is just the tv show vs the film version. You won't ever hear me say anything about Lotr books because it's just the film version.
As i said you can't ignore the background info of a character. Although We didn't got the stories of Oberyn in the Show it doesn't mean Oberyn is just another common fighter.What am saying is, that in this specific case, that rule doesn't match since then you are taking Oberyn as a ghost who just appeared in one episode who has no info to back up his character.
It's like saying Oberyn is just Oberyn. You are not taking it as if Oberyn is the Red Viper (The mighty Dornish Warrior who uses poison and has never lost a fight).
See my point? It would destroy Oberyn's character if we limit him to Screen only info.
We can only use his showings from the season. He showed greatness but it only lasted one fight. We have to follow the same rules for both characters.
Originally posted by quanchi112
We have to adhere to the rules of that forum. This is just the tv show vs the film version. You won't ever hear me say anything about Lotr books because it's just the film version.We can only use his showings from the season. He showed greatness but it only lasted one fight. We have to follow the same rules for both characters.
Hum, one way or the next. It is still certain that Oberyn lost his battle with the Mountain because of personal feelings.
It is also certain that Oberyn was toying Gregor all match to make him confess.
In that aspect I can safely assure you that Oberyn is a lot better than what he portrayed on that fight. It would still fall under the Forum's rules.
It's a shame though. A secondary character who doesn't get enough time on screen to properly fulfill his background history gets severely affected by this rule.
Originally posted by Josh_AlexanderI've argued for years Oberyn destroyed Gregor. He only lost due to his own arrogance but Azog is someone far greater than Gregor.
Hum, one way or the next. It is still certain that Oberyn lost his battle with the Mountain because of personal feelings.It is also certain that Oberyn was toying Gregor all match to make him confess.
In that aspect I can safely assure you that Oberyn is a lot better than what he portrayed on that fight. It would still fall under the Forum's rules.
It's a shame though. A secondary character who doesn't get enough time to properly fulfill his background history gets severely affected by this rule.
Well in a way less showings also can help the characters since they don't have any lame showings. He dominated Gregor and only lost due to pride. Gregor has never impressed me though and he'd be torn to shreds by many, many other characters.
Originally posted by quanchi112
I've argued for years Oberyn destroyed Gregor. He only lost due to his own arrogance but Azog is someone far greater than Gregor.Well in a way less showings also can help the characters since they don't have any lame showings. He dominated Gregor and only lost due to pride. Gregor has never impressed me though and he'd be torn to shreds by many, many other characters.
Yes but Azog isn't much different than Gregor. He is a bit faster and stronger yes, but i don't see him being able to cope with a fast fighter like Oberyn.
Oberyn is to agile and fast for Azog. And as i said, the poison is still there. Oberyn knows this, and won't do anything stupid as he did with the Mountain in this case.
So, the same ending as with the Mountain isn't possible.
