Originally posted by SunRazerBy my friend Miko, in a different forum. I asked him for his thread about it, and I'll share what he gives me when he gives it to me. If it turns out I'm wrong about it, then I'll concede, but I don't think I am.
Debunked where? The only time we hear about the other planets is in TCSWE, which is where it's explicitly said that he fed on planets that he had bombarded.The idea of bombarding Katarr was the only one in dispute, but whatever you make of it, it's clearly not something he's replicated again, which to me suggests circumstantial aid.
Originally posted by AzrongerDepends on whether or not Vitiate is a Force Wound. There's evidence to support that he is one, but it's not explicitly confirmed. If he IS one, a Force Wound can't drain another Force Wound, so no, I'd say he can't one-shot Vitiate. If Vitiate is NOT a Force Wound, then yes, Nihilus very well could be capable of draining Vitiate. Nihilus is unique in that he doesn't need to be more powerful than his opponent in order to win, all he needs to do is use his unblockable drain, and it's game over.
So DB77, if Nihilus' drain can't be resisted, you think he one-shots Vitiate too?
Originally posted by darthbane77
By my friend Miko, in a different forum. I asked him for his thread about it, and I'll share what he gives me when he gives it to me. If it turns out I'm wrong about it, then I'll concede, but I don't think I am.
Miko Hacksaw? I debated him on this and he just has a completely different interpretation of Nihilus altogether. He was particularly obsessed with this "Force Hunger" thing that I've not seen anyone else debate for a long time.
But sure, I'll wait for it.
Originally posted by The Ellimist
There were thousands of them on Korriban and they're supposed to attack intruders, sooo...But they are gone, you can see it...
The Korriban sith try to attack Palpatine the first time, then the second time only a few remain and they're scared of him. It's not too difficult to connect the dots.
1.It's a general statement about cross-era Korriban, not one specific time. One can easily claim the same sh!t about anyone else who went to Korriban.
2.The very quote he uses states they are too weak to attack directly so they reanimate the dead. In other words zombies with blasters.
3.Meetra Surik went there and those spirits summoned numerous Hssiss which are far more dangerous than Force zombies and she cleared the Valley, the Academy and Ludo Kressh's previously undiscovered tomb which had even more.
Originally posted by SunRazerYep, that's him. Nihilus is somewhat of an area of focus for him.
Miko Hacksaw? I debated him on this and he just has a completely different interpretation of Nihilus altogether. He was particularly obsessed with this "Force Hunger" thing that I've not seen anyone else debate for a long time.But sure, I'll wait for it.
I appreciate your patience.
Originally posted by Azronger
Even if Nihilus' drain has no defence, DB77, how does that prove it's an insta-kill? It may very well take a while to completely drain someone as powerful as Palpatine.Spoiler:
Please don't cite Traya being insta-drained for the love of Sheev
He can drain planets with a thought
"As Nihilus greedy consumes entire planets life energies, the dark side macerates him even faster."
―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
Generally, in fiction, when a character does something with a thought, it's also done at the speed of that thought. Not a rule, but a general observation. As for quotes, those are among the ones I don't actually have on hand. So I'll get back to you when I get back to SunRazer and Tempest.
Originally posted by slayne
The Exile's a wound. It isn't really a surprise that they'd lose the fight if they tried draining her, lol.
No source states that Wounds are immune to Drain in general. Kreia Drains you fine in the Council Chambers if you play the DS version. KotORCG elaborates on the Exile being immune to Nihilus' powers specifically because she was his polar opposite, not just because she was any old Wound. And the Assassins were also draining your companions, not just you. They still lost.
Which isn't reason in the slightest to suspect that he'd be incapable of successfully doing so. As made blatantly clear by Traya and his Assassins, Drain (Nihilus' variant, at least) does work on opponents more powerful than the user - and Nihilus, being infinitely more proficient in the technique than his underlings, would be no exception here.
I just said Nihilus hasn't shown Drain against more powerful opponents, not that it doesn't work. The Assassins are proof that it does. I've only ever said it doesn't give them an instant win against more powerful opponents, which you seem to agree with given that you think Sidious wins this fight. I suspect that Nihilus' Drain against someone noticeably more powerful than himself would just turn out like the Assassin's Drain on most chars, or at best something like Krayt on Abeloth.
Take a look at Sion, who I'm sure we can all agree is a lesser enemy. Nihilus didn't waste any time whatsoever trying to stun him; he unleashed everything he had as soon as he took a step forward to attack - drain, lightning, telekinesis, etc. He probably stunned Surik for reasons pertaining to the plot, honestly.
Well, the actual game script just has him attacking Sion with telekinesis. Drain was thrown in by one modder (DarthStony, I think it was), and I'm not sure why (there's been a variety of different interpretations of the scene from different mods).
Surik's not the only one he stunned. He stunned Traya with telekinesis first before draining her. That's a pretty strong precedent.
The entire Telos sequence can easily be written off as PIS, and it'd be great if you could provide the TCSWE quote which says he can't replicate what he did at Katarr.OT: Sidious wins.
Why would Telos be PIS? It serves no further purpose in the rest of the story. You could destroy it without any consequence; if anything, it'd just make Nihilus look more intimidating since you actually see one of these godlike feats on-screen, as opposed to hearsay of questionable reliability.
The idea that he can't replicate what he did at Katarr is my own deduction. What TCSWE says is this:
In the meantime, Darth Nihilus led his Sith forces from his flagship, the Ravager, drawing more and more power from worlds that he blasted into ruin.-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
We've got Katarr, which has ambiguous circumstances, Telos, where we see him failing to do the same thing with our own eyes despite being given ample time, and the other planets mentioned in TCSWE, which he drained after bombarding them from orbit.
So Katarr is a lone case out of several. You'd understand my skepticism about whether or not he can just pull off that feat whenever he wants.
Originally posted by darthbane77
He can drain planets with a thought"As Nihilus greedy consumes entire planets life energies, the dark side macerates him even faster."
―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
Generally, in fiction, when a character does something with a thought, it's also done at the speed of that thought. Not a rule, but a general observation. As for quotes, those are among the ones I don't actually have on hand. So I'll get back to you when I get back to SunRazer and Tempest.
Yes, and the inhabitants of Katarr blatantly aren't as powerful as Sheev, even collectively. So I ask again:
Originally posted by Azronger
Even if Nihilus' drain has no defence, DB77, how does that prove it's an insta-kill? It may very well take a while to completely drain someone as powerful as Palpatine.Spoiler:
Please don't cite Traya being insta-drained for the love of Sheev
The entire point of the conversation you have with Nihilus is that Traya tricked Nihilus into believing Telos IV was a gathering place for Jedi. He tries searching for Jedi the whole time prior and then the Exile reveals to him that there are no Jedi, only a dead world. That was Traya's entire plan. As soon as Nihilus realises this he rages and attacks the Exile. IIRC even Tobin and Marr says that as soon as he realises this, he'll destroy Citadel Station and the planet below, feeding on the mass death.
Interpreting that as anything else is pretty terrible.
Originally posted by AzrongerRemind me to get to this later, when I have all my quotes gathered. I've been busy, and will continue to be busy for the next couple days, and I don't wanna lose track of this convo.
Yes, and the inhabitants of Katarr blatantly aren't as powerful as Sheev, even collectively. So I ask again:
Originally posted by The Ellimist
Still waiting on that quote that proves the ancient sith were too weak to attack Palpatine. Not that this in any way refutes the fact that they're apparently almost all dead and deferential to him by EE.
Driven by hatred of those who entombed them and the madness that is existence in the dark side, the relatively weak spirits of thousands of lesser Sith act as protectors for the remains of their superiors.Unable to exert enough strength to possess the living, these guardian spirits animate the fleshless corpses of various tomb robbers and space pirates that have unintentionally made Korriban their final resting place. A guardian spirit looks for all the world like a walking skeleton.
"The angry phantoms of the Sith, too weak to influence the sentient,"
--Kreia
Originally posted by AzrongerI'm not saying it is, necessarily. But Nihilus has MULTIPLE worlds worth of power in him. Personally, I feel anyone with even a single world's worth of power is gonna be able to at least give Sidious some level of pause.
@DB77What quotes? Yes, I know the quote saying Nihilus can drain worlds with a thought; I know Kreia says there's no defence etc. I'm just asking for reasons why draining Katarr is equivalent or greater than draining Sheev?
Anyway, I'll get back to this later. I've been in four debates at once for at least the passed hour or so, and my mind is getting fried. I'll come back when I'm fresh.
Originally posted by darthbane77
He can drain planets with a thought"As Nihilus greedy consumes entire planets life energies, the dark side macerates him even faster."
―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
Generally, in fiction, when a character does something with a thought, it's also done at the speed of that thought. Not a rule, but a general observation. As for quotes, those are among the ones I don't actually have on hand. So I'll get back to you when I get back to SunRazer and Tempest.
You seem to have quoted the wrong thing, lol. This isn't the quote saying he consumes entire worlds with a thought.
However, given your rationale of taking feats or "direct showings of a character's abilities" over statements if there's a contradiction, surely you would ignore this statement after the planets Nihilus attacks in TCSWE and Telos IV in KotOR II blatantly show that he can't consume entire planets with a thought?
Originally posted by AncientPower
The entire point of the conversation you have with Nihilus is that Traya tricked Nihilus into believing Telos IV was a gathering place for Jedi. He tries searching for Jedi the whole time prior and then the Exile reveals to him that there are no Jedi, only a dead world. That was Traya's entire plan. As soon as Nihilus realises this he rages and attacks the Exile. IIRC even Tobin and Marr says that as soon as he realises this, he'll destroy Citadel Station and the planet below, feeding on the mass death.Interpreting that as anything else is pretty terrible.