@lazybones - A rather random bump from our friend Freedon Nadd here reminded me of the SWTOR codex that detailed the Battle of Telos IV, which outright states that Nihilus prepared to devour all life on the planet. That does confirm that the quotes about him devastating worlds with a thought and what not are entirely hyperbolic in nature.
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
1. It is stated that Nihilus goes after planets rich in the Force
2. The galaxy is very big. It could be 'true' that they didn't wipe out all the Jedi
3. You have also to take in account that Nihilus was in the Hunger-mode when he initiated the attack on Telos. When he heard the rumor that the Jedi gathered on Telos; he immediately took it as proof and went there to check it out
My point is that no other planets would've been rich in the Force except if they were just naturally attuned to the Force. The amount of Jedi left in the galaxy would've been too low for another Katarr. That's also why nobody names a planet Nihilus drains other than Katarr, lol. It's because none of them were significant; most were probably not even known to the wider galaxy.
As said above, when opportunity came for Nihilus, he immediately took advantage of it. Also, keep in mind that the Jedi are natural enemies to the Sith; so it would make sense he would go to drain them to sate his Hunger. But because he didn't have any longer Visas with him to confirm it; and he didn't 'sense' them either on Telos; he stood and awaited for confirmation on his Ravager. Also, as said before; the Hunger brought him almost to basic actions.
Even the Jedi Exile and her team boarded on his ship; and he didn't notice it.
What I try to say is that the only thing that mattered to him at that point was the draining of Jedi on Telos.If you don't want this answer; you could say that he thought that those Jedi(who are just a machination) were serving as a greater food collectively than the entire planet of Katarr(that they were stronger in the Force than the planet)
No one said he gives a frying pan about life. But it was explicitly stated that he goes only after planets rich in Force energy; and Telos was anything but that. That's why he attacked Telos(with his forces) in the first place and waited. He wanted to see if those rumors were true. That's why he sent his forces in the first place and not brought himself with the Ravager on Telos.
I understand these points. What I said is that he doesn't need to investigate for long because he went all this way already. If he isn't rewarding himself with a planetary feast, Jedi or not, he's wasting his time. Of course he'd just feed. He's willing to investigate after the fact, as we saw with Katarr. Given that he doesn't care about life, it would make sense if he just indiscriminately fed regardless.
Anyway, there's no point continuing this. LazyBones gave me a perfectly good answer on Telos already and the SWTOR codex sheds further light on it. It seems as though Nihilus was preparing to devour life anyway and just couldn't get into range/didn't have enough time to prepare before the Exile boarded his ship.
Visas says that when Nihilus finds out the truth; he'd still cleanse it of life because he was desperate to quell his Hunger.
That's why he didn't attack Telos; he needed a confirmation.By the time he figures out, the Jedi Exile also says:
"Kreia has lied to you-there are no Jedi here. You have sensed it."
Now, you will say: But why the hell didn't he order his forces to retreat?
1. Because he was in the middle of a challenge. After all you saw that he was so hungry and desperate; that he tried to drain the Exile and it backfired at him.
2. If he'd have killed the Exile and her team; he'd have still drained Telos as Visas blatantly puts it. But he just didn't want to accept the truth that it was all a fabrication of Traya. Hence the Jedi Exile said to him that Kreia indirectly betrayed him or manipulated him.
I got this. The point is why didn't he Drain Telos before encountering the Exile, and LazyBones' claim of "range" was sufficient for me. That is, until you rather randomly bumped some other thread and reminded me of the SWTOR codex stating that Nihilus had to make preparations in order to drain Telos. 😆
If Nihilus devoid Katarr of Force and not other planets; then Visas would have pointed this out to the Exile.
Not necessarily. Visas states that she doesn't know where he goes/is except when he calls for her. She may not have been present when Nihilus attacked other planets.
It doesn't devalue $hit. You are just pissed because this guy can casually drain planets of life.
There are many sources that state that; and yet, you are against them. It's like you don't want to accept that a Sith Lord(Nihilus) is able to do that on a planetary scale with relative ease. I bet that if it were Sidious; you'd immediately accept this as fact without the need of looking 'deeper' in the words.
"No u" isn't a reply. You didn't even address my point.
Why would I be pissed? I'm one of KotOR II's few defenders on this forum. In fact, I've been accused of wanking KotOR II in the past on this forum, and I was one of Nihilus' defenders against the quote in the Revan novel. I'm just appropriately skeptical of Nihilus' laughably hyperbolic praise, as has been the general trend on this forum for a while. That you take it all at face value doesn't mean a more critical analysis is invalid. After all, I was willing to indulge you on a critical analysis of Sidious' accolades. That you're unwilling to do the same here reeks of confirmation bias.
Funny that you throw a charge of me not wanting to accept facts after denying the same accusation in the other thread. You literally devalue everything because it comes from a specific era, and you want to charge other people of being pissed and wanting to subvert facts? 😂
Nobody's looking deeper at anything. I accepted Visas' statements at face value that Katarr wasn't done by machines. I also took TCSWE's quote that he "blasted" planets into orbit, and thanks to your reminder, the SWTOR codex stating he prepared to Drain Telos. Sounds like you're the one who can't accept facts.
And no, I've looked "deeper" into the words of a variety of Sidious showings, but I'm not here to indulge emotional breakdowns. Come back when you've got more than ad hominems to your case.
She didn't survive his attack. Nihilus is the one who didn't kill her deliberately. He was looking for a seer-due to their ability of peering through the Force.
Is there proof that he spared her from the original attack, and if so, why specifically? She was obviously hit and knocked unconscious, just didn't die. It seems to me that he roamed the planet for survivors and came across her, then salvaged her.
And my last point to make; you do realize that if bombing was really at stake in his wide-planetary drain; then Nihilus would have to bomb all the planet in each section for that?
Well, Malak did that just fine in the original KotOR. And if we take LazyBones' point that these planets would've lacked military defences, then Nihilus taking hours to reposition a fleet for bombardment would be fine as well.
Even Vitiate's Nathema Ritual has shown that even buildings are affected by drain.
Contrary to your assertions, Vitiate's ritual on Nathema just isn't the same as Nihilus'. And if it were, you'd be conceding that Nihilus used a ritual.
Originally posted by SunRazer
@lazybones - A rather random bump from our friend Freedon Nadd here reminded me of the SWTOR codex that detailed the Battle of Telos IV, which outright states that Nihilus prepared to devour all life on the planet. That does confirm that the quotes about him devastating worlds with a thought and what not are entirely hyperbolic in nature.
It doesn't nearly do that. In much the same way that you can prepare to finish off an opponent simply by raising your weapon, the term "prepared to" doesn't actually indicate any kind of significant preparations are necessary. At most all it means is that he was getting in range to use the technique, as has been pointed out repeatedly.
Besides which, we know from the game that he was still trying to find the "missing" Jedi when the Exile confronts him. You can even taunt him over it.
Originally posted by Nephthys
It doesn't nearly do that. In much the same way that you can prepare to finish off an opponent simply by raising your weapon, the term "prepared to" doesn't actually indicate any kind of significant preparations are necessary. At most all it means is that he was getting in range to use the technique, as has been pointed out repeatedly.Besides which, we know from the game that he was still trying to find the "missing" Jedi when the Exile confronts him. You can even taunt him over it.
They only need to be significant enough to suggest that it's not "a thought" which is used to destroy worlds, as that doesn't require preparation. However, the Force doesn't work in the way of transitioning instantly from "out of range" to "destroy with a thought", lol. If that was the case, Nihilus would be able to destroy it from a greater distance simply by using greater exertion. We have every reason to believe it's hyperbole when a) Nihilus opts to stun mere individuals first before draining them and b) Nihilus has been afforded hyperbolic praise before. If we pay attention to the sources which wank him (Kreia, Visas, Power Beyond Belief, etc, they are all prone to highly poetic and exaggerated forms of description and praise).
This would be like me taking Palpatine "threatening to consume all of space" with his Storms literally. "Oh, but I like how you don't, even though it literally says so in the text!" Just in case Nadd accuses me of it, though, I'll make it clear now: I don't take that quote at face value either.
I've already accepted the range argument from lazybones. You should stick to that, because the more you pretend that it's about "finding the missing Jedi" then the less the "preparation" has to do with coming into range and the more it has to do with actually preparing via the Force, lol.
That's because the Force storm was still under his control. Palpatine is the one who opens or closes them when he summons them, so to speak. If Palpatine lets it loose and he is alive; then it starts to function independent of him. The reason it disappeared when he was cut off from the Force was due to the fact that Force storm was still linked to Palpatine's control.
As about our discussion:
[Vitiate's ritual on Nathema just isn't the same as Nihilus'. And if it were, you'd be conceding that Nihilus used a ritual.]
1. Vitiate needed a ritual because he wasn't powerful enough to do it by himself.
2. In case of both Nathema and Katarr: the same thing happened. It's just that on Nathema it was more violently.
Both events left a void in the Force.
[Not necessarily. Visas states that she doesn't know where he goes/is except when he calls for her. She may not have been present when Nihilus attacked other planets.]
You do realize that when Nihilus struck; she was rendered unconscious a few moments next? How would she know what Nihilus did to Katarr, then? How would she know what Nihilus' hunger does?
You know why she knows that? Because she is a Miraluka. And her race can detect shifts in the Force and 'holes'. She could be in her room and still sense how Nihilus drains worlds of Force turning them into voids. So, no, my friend, she doesn't have to see. Heck, she is also blind. She cannot describe anything with her eyes. I am pretty sure that if bombing was involved in any of his wide-planetary drains; she'd have heard it and confirmed it to the Jedi Exile.
[ The point is why didn't he Drain Telos before encountering the Exile,]
You are kidding with me, right?
It's already been said that he needed the confirmation that there are Jedi on that planet. That's the whole purpose of attacking Telos. That's why he sent his forces in the first place. He thought that a huge number of Jedi will show up to defend Telos. Don't forget about Force-sensitive who want to belong to the Jedi Order. Nihilus must've thought that a new order is forming under the Sith Triumvirate's nose.
It's like someone telling you to paint their house because they will give you roasted chicken, bread, fried sausages(you are also hungry as f*ck)
You think they must be right and you listen to them. Because you'd rather eat that rather than a small cup of rice; but you'd eat rice too because there's nothing you can do about that; it isn't enough; but it will sustain you for a bit, but you still want the former not the latter. And exactly that's the concept Nihilus operated when he attacked Telos.
[Is there proof that he spared her from the original attack, and if so, why specifically? She was obviously hit and knocked unconscious, just didn't die.]
Are you kidding with me again, right?
Common sense.
If Nihilus wouldn't have rendered her unconscious, how would he bring her on his ship?
If Nihilus let her untouched by his power, she'd flee and commit suicide. She was already willing to do that when Nihilus threatened to kill The Jedi Exile(because she saw life and hope in Meetra Surik).
Before saying why didn't she already do it? It's because it was stated that Nihilus corrupted her through the Force.
Originally posted by SunRazer
They only need to be significant enough to suggest that it's not "a thought" which is used to destroy worlds, as that doesn't require preparation. However, the Force doesn't work in the way of transitioning instantly from "out of range" to "destroy with a thought", lol. If that was the case, Nihilus would be able to destroy it from a greater distance simply by using greater exertion. We have every reason to believe it's hyperbole when a) Nihilus opts to stun mere individuals first before draining them and b) Nihilus has been afforded hyperbolic praise before. If we pay attention to the sources which wank him (Kreia, Visas, Power Beyond Belief, etc, they are all prone to highly poetic and exaggerated forms of description and praise).This would be like me taking Palpatine "threatening to consume all of space" with his Storms literally. "Oh, but I like how you don't, even though it literally says so in the text!" Just in case Nadd accuses me of it, though, I'll make it clear now: I don't take that quote at face value either.
I've already accepted the range argument from lazybones. You should stick to that, because the more you pretend that it's about "finding the missing Jedi" then the less the "preparation" has to do with coming into range and the more it has to do with actually preparing via the Force, lol.
And there isn't any indication that it is even that significant. "He raised the gun and prepared to shoot" is an acceptable use of the phrase even though all that's referring to is mentally deciding to squeeze the trigger and doing so. And the Force can easily work like that bro, concentrating super hard doesn't necessarily make your lightning go twice as far. You don't know enough about the technique to make that claim. Plus you seem to be underestimating how big space is. Nihilus stunned those people so he could talk to them. His apprentice is with them after all and he's been looking for the Exile all game. And don't talk about poetic phrases. As if "blasted into ruins" is a 100% clinical and literal term and its the basis for your entire argument.
The big difference here is that we've seen the technique be used instantly on people, we've seen it being used subconsciously and without any actual effort required and other descriptions of its use are all termed as being brief. It requiring prep actually runs counter to the evidence.
I care more about establishing the facts than what you agree with. In this case Visas makes it pretty clear that he's waiting to feed on the station and the planet until after he finds the Jedi. Its even implied that he doesn't actually care about Telos and would only feed on it if he couldn't find the Jedi.
3.20 onwards.
The difference is that if someone says "he can shoot a gun with a press of a trigger", then I wouldn't have any qualms with accepting the quote at face value, lol.
Well, then we just have to agree to disagree. I for one don't think that the millimetre's difference transitions from Nihilus being utterly impotent to annihilating the entire planet with a thought.
Oh, it can be used instantly on people. The idea of it requiring prep for an entire planet isn't contrary to anything, though.
Nihilus didn't say anything to Traya, and was out to kill her. He still stunned her with telekinesis first.
I don't think any of that video contradicts the preparation quote. In fact, if I took your assumption that Nihilus had no interest in feeding on the planet except if he couldn't find the Jedi, then that works for my case, as he obviously wouldn't be preparing to feed on Telos until he was satisfied that he couldn't find the Jedi (the Exile's words probably being mere confirmation).
Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
That's because the Force storm was still under his control. Palpatine is the one who opens or closes them when he summons them, so to speak. If Palpatine lets it loose and he is alive; then it starts to function independent of him. The reason it disappeared when he was cut off from the Force was due to the fact that Force storm was still linked to Palpatine's control.
That Palpatine was able to conjure one as of DE, doesn't imply that his could consume all of space. You realize how big the Universe is and how insignificant a Force Storm is in comparison to it?
The Skywalkers disrupted Palpatine's control over his Force Storm and it dissipated after consuming Palpatine's flagship.
In-fact, a Force Storm hasn't busted a moon, let alone the Universe.
Originally posted by SunRazer
Sion states that "You are difficult to kill" to Kreia, and to Nihilus he says "You did not kill her, as you assumed".Kreia clearly survived without their knowing, lol.
You do realize that Sion came after the Jedi Exile, initially, and it happened that he also met his former master too?
"I sensed you, master. Old, faint, weak."
When he makes that statement with: "You are difficult to kill." He was referring at the current situation because Traya forged an alliance with the Jedi: "Save one broken Jedi. And one broken Jedi cannot stop the darkness that is to come.".
After all you saw that the Exile and her party slaughtered Sith assassins as they made their way to Darth Sion.
Hence he stated: "I spared you once. I shall not do the same mistake again."
As about your second quote: That's non-canon, as far as I am aware, and it has nothing to do with Kreia's exile or the attack on Peragus. Sion makes reference to Dxun because Kreia goes to the Tomb of Freedon Nadd - Kreia was originally supposed to be allowed to join the party that goes to the tomb. Cut so that it'd make sense with the Tobin scene in the Onderon Royal Palace where Kreia reveals the hiding place of the Jedi.
Since Darth Nihilus is the strongest in the Triumvirate; the responsibility falls on his shoulders. He is the leader, so to speak.
Nihilus assumed that his Sith forces killed Traya on Dxun. That's why Sion said:
"And there's more, yet. Darth Traya lives. You did not kill her as you assumed."
Not trying to be a troll: But you literally see how easily Nihilus Force-demolishes her and then Sion proceeds to beat the crap out of her. If they wanted to kill her there and then; Sion would have slain her with his lightsabre or Nihilus would have Force-crushed each bone in her body. Even Kreia says she is an exile and that they exiled her.
At best you could say that Nihilus and Sion didn't want to kill her with their hands and wanted to humiliate her by letting her flee Malachor only to be chased by their Sith forces. Sort of a hunting game.