Nihilus vs. Palpatine.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
[B]The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia disclosed that Force Storms are natural cosmic phenomenon.

That Palpatine was able to conjure one as of DE, doesn't imply that his could consume all of space. You realize how big the Universe is and how insignificant a Force Storm is in comparison to it?

The Skywalkers disrupted Palpatine's control over his Force Storm and it dissipated after consuming Palpatine's flagship.

In-fact, a Force Storm hasn't busted a moon, let alone the Universe. [/B]

1. Force storms are definitely not natural cosmic phenomenon as they are created by harnessing dark side energy
2. Those Force storms are made of pure dark side energy. They also devour Force energy to work. Basically these Force storm are dark side energy incarnate. After they are created; these worm holes would also consume Force energy because they're made of dark energy. You know that dark side energies do leech off of vitality and Force energy people and anything that lives. That's why the darkest planets are mostly waste lands.
3. Left unchecked, the Force storm would ravage planets and absorb energy from them and then increase its mass
4. The Force storm dissipated because it was still under Palpatine's influence. It wasn't independent of him.
5. Left unchecked it could grow larger as it devours Force energy

I bet that Revan's statement about Vitiate's ritual consuming the galaxy if he is not stopped is true to you.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
You do realize that Sion came after the Jedi Exile, initially, and it happened that he also met his former master too?
"I sensed you, master. Old, faint, weak."

When he makes that statement with: "You are difficult to kill." He was referring at the current situation because Traya forged an alliance with the Jedi: "Save one broken Jedi. And one broken Jedi cannot stop the darkness that is to come.".

No, he wasn't. The part that comes before the "broken Jedi" is this:

"And now you run in search of the Jedi. They are all dead, save one, and one broken Jedi cannot stop the darkness that is to come."

-- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

They're completely unrelated. He says the line about being difficult to kill very early on, making a clear reference to the fact that her ousting was actually an attempt on her life.

After all you saw that the Exile and her party slaughtered Sith assassins as they made their way to Darth Sion.
Hence he stated: "I spared you once. I shall not do the same mistake again."

He doesn't say that on the Harbinger, lol. He says that on Malachor V when Traya returns, in reference to having spared her on the Harbinger, not his Nihilus-backed double-cross in the flashback.

Here: https://youtu.be/iTF9xu50Hb0?t=50

Abundantly clear that he's referring to sparing her on the Harbinger after cutting off her hand. That's why Kreia proceeds to talk about how his strength is as meaningless as the strength of her hand...

As about your second quote: That's non-canon, as far as I am aware, and it has nothing to do with Kreia's exile or the attack on Peragus. Sion makes reference to Dxun because Kreia goes to the Tomb of Freedon Nadd - Kreia was originally supposed to be allowed to join the party that goes to the tomb. Cut so that it'd make sense with the Tobin scene in the Onderon Royal Palace where Kreia reveals the hiding place of the Jedi.

No idea what this has to do with anything. It was supposed to come after the Exile was apparently killed on Nar Shaddaa, which Sion bought and then left.

And it's not "canon" per se but it's in the script. It's blatantly obvious what the writers intended; even the Harbinger line alone would have convinced me but this really puts the nail in the coffin.

Since Darth Nihilus is the strongest in the Triumvirate; the responsibility falls on his shoulders. He is the leader, so to speak.
Nihilus assumed that his Sith forces killed Traya on Dxun. That's why Sion said:
"And there's more, yet. Darth Traya lives. You did not kill her as you assumed."

There's nothing in the script about Traya being killed on Dxun. In fact the script doesn't have lines for her on Dxun. You yourself said that the game had to account for the possibility of Kreia being on either Dxun or Onderon, and I believe Kreia's ability to go to Dxun was cut well before most other material anyway because it was required that she be on Onderon for narrative purposes. It wasn't something cut for time constraints. So her being on Dxun was cut before the game's final script was even presented.

Not only that, but even if she was apparently killed on Dxun, how on earth would Sion know that she wasn't? He doesn't meet her again until Malachor.

No. It's abundantly clear Sion's referring to the last time Nihilus met Traya, which was on Malachor V when they double-crossed her.

Not trying to be a troll: But you literally see how easily Nihilus Force-demolishes her and then Sion proceeds to beat the crap out of her. If they wanted to kill her there and then; Sion would have slain her with his lightsabre or Nihilus would have Force-crushed each bone in her body. Even Kreia says she is an exile and that they exiled her.

At best you could say that Nihilus and Sion didn't want to kill her with their hands and wanted to humiliate her by letting her flee Malachor only to be chased by their Sith forces. Sort of a hunting game.

I don't deny that Sion and Nihilus could have killed her, but for whatever reason they did try and failed. Sion said exactly that. You're in denial.

How the hell could they have failed!? Come on, Sun Razer, man. She was beat down a pulp. If you aren't satisfied with that answer, call it a plot hole.

[Abundantly clear that he's referring to sparing her on the Harbinger after cutting off her hand]

Are you sure Sion was referencing the Harbinger event, though?
We have never seen what happened to Traya after he cut her hand off on the Harbinger. Why would he spare her back then if he went through a lot of $hit to kill her? Sparing her wouldn't make sense in that context that you bring up.

After all we have seen Traya Force-choking Sion with relative ease on Malachor V. You also bring a good point that at the same spot(more or less) he beat the crap out of her; now it was him in her position. It would make sense he alluded to the flashback.
Sion also alluded to the fact that Traya was in search of the Jedi. It makes sense that being difficult to kill, he was referring at the current situation. So if you still are not convinced. Then look my final answer: They spared Kreia; they exiled her, but at the same time they had Sith agents to keep track of her deeds. They found out she was trying to find Jedi and then Sion and Nihilus decided to kill her; they sent their forces after her. Something happened; she disappeared. Then you find her on Ebon Hawk; Sion sees her and tells Nihilus he failed to kill her(in non-canon)

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
How the hell could they have failed!? Come on, Sun Razer, man. She was beat down a pulp. If you aren't satisfied with that answer, call it a plot hole.

Not explained by the writers but it seems intentional enough so I wouldn't call it a "plot hole". The writers simply opted to not explain it, as with why Kreia survived on the Harbinger.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
[Abundantly clear that he's referring to sparing her on the Harbinger after cutting off her hand]

Are you sure Sion was referencing the Harbinger event, though?
We have never seen what happened to Traya after he cut her hand off on the Harbinger. Why would he spare her back then if he went through a lot of $hit to kill her? Sparing her wouldn't make sense in that context that you bring up.

Yes, I'm sure. On the Harbinger she was conscious and yet still survived. Unless you're suggesting that she Mind Tricked him, the implication is that he spared her because he no longer regarded her as a threat and thought that he had sufficiently humiliated her. Of course, he was wrong, a point which she drives into his head when they meet again on Malachor.

After all we have seen Traya Force-choking Sion with relative ease on Malachor V. You also bring a good point that at the same spot(more or less) he beat the crap out of her; now it was him in her position. It would make sense he alluded to the flashback.
Sion also alluded to the fact that Traya was in search of the Jedi. It makes sense that being difficult to kill, he was referring at the current situation. So if you still are not convinced. Then look my final answer: They spared Kreia; they exiled her, but at the same time they had Sith agents to keep track of her deeds. They found out she was trying to find Jedi and then Sion and Nihilus decided to kill her; they sent their forces after her. Something happened; she disappeared. Then you find her on Ebon Hawk; Sion sees her and tells Nihilus he failed to kill her(in non-canon)

There's no evidence that Sion knew she survived; that's the whole point. The Assassins weren't following her; they were targeting the Exile whom Kreia happened to get to first, so they ended up following them collectively. Sion didn't know that Kreia had survived Malachor before then. That's why he's surprised when he finds her on the Harbinger and remarks that she's difficult to kill. The only instance in which he's tried to kill her before then would have to have been his Nihilus-backed double-cross on Malachor V.

Man, you are not getting me. By disappeared, I mean as in dead.
Sith Agent: Uhm, lord Sion, Traya died in the explosion aboard a ship.
Sion: Finally, good news.
*goes to report to Nihilus
Sion: She's dead.
Nihilus: @#(€&#-#-

Is this explanation good for you now?

No. "Something happened; she disappeared" is a solution you made up in your head. At no point is she reported dead to Sion or Nihilus, either in the script or the finished product of the game.

It's blatantly obvious that Sion's referring to the incident on Malachor both times.

Then you have to accept that Nihilus killed her. They got rid off her body. She used Dark transfer on herself.
Or that she used a Force technique and hid her Force signature pretending to be dead.

Does it sound good to you, now, mr. Lawyer? 💃

But IIRC, doesn't Sion make the report to Nihilus on the Ravager, that Traya lives, after a few conflicts with the Jedi Exile's team during the game?

What I am trying to say is that the scene with the report should have been after you finish the Peragus mining level, not long after the Peragus incident?

This could be proof that he was referring to the current situation.

Originally posted by SunRazer
And it's not "canon" per se but it's in the script. It's blatantly obvious what the writers intended; even the Harbinger line alone would have convinced me but this really puts the nail in the coffin.

But the script isn't 'canon', though. When it comes about movies, cartoons, and video-games, there will always be several scripts. And only the last one is used: Which doesn't contain the cut-content because it was left out. The finished byproduct is: the video-game.
If you like to play it that way, then Palpatine, in the early drafts, admitted that he manipulated the midi-chlorians and created Anakin. Does it mean it is true? No. Because that line never reached in the actual product. Palpatine was also meant to be initially a muppet of the Moffs and not a Force-sensitive; but that idea was never passed in the actual universe.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Then you have to accept that Nihilus killed her. They got rid off her body. She used Dark transfer on herself.
Or that she used a Force technique and hid her Force signature pretending to be dead.

Does it sound good to you, now, mr. Lawyer? 💃

Dark Transfer? No. But I imagined she concealed her life signs and presence in the Force significantly (whatever was left of it) significantly, as I said before.

Regardless, this misses the point, which is that Nihilus was able to stun Traya and then drain her with Sion, and yet even with Sion's physical attacks afterwards the duo failed to kill her.

But IIRC, doesn't Sion make the report to Nihilus on the Ravager, that Traya lives, after a few conflicts with the Jedi Exile's team during the game?

No, I've told you already that he makes this report after the Exile is presumed dead on Nar Shaddaa (or, apparently in some mods, M4-78). Sion then goes to report this to Nihilus and end their alliance as they both believe the Exile to be the last of the Jedi. Sion does not encounter Kreia again after the events of the Harbinger; not until Malachor V, anyway.

What I am trying to say is that the scene with the report should have been after you finish the Peragus mining level, not long after the Peragus incident?

This could be proof that he was referring to the current situation.

No, it happens considerably later. It happens after Nar Shaddaa.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
But the script isn't 'canon', though. When it comes about movies, cartoons, and video-games, there will always be several scripts. And only the last one is used: Which doesn't contain the cut-content because it was left out. The finished byproduct is: the video-game.
If you like to play it that way, then Palpatine, in the early drafts, admitted that he manipulated the midi-chlorians and created Anakin. Does it mean it is true? No. Because that line never reached in the actual product. Palpatine was also meant to be initially a muppet of the Moffs and not a Force-sensitive; but that idea was never passed in the actual universe.

Early drafts are not the script. An early draft would be something like Kreia being able to go to Dxun; doesn't exist in the script. And in the actual RotS script, Palpatine doesn't say that. Scripts are always close to the actual source. These are final scripts I'm talking about, not early drafts.

The script works fine to convey authorial intent limited by the game engine or time constraints (which we know in KotOR II covers a considerable amount of things). Avellone's intention is relevant because it clarifies and supports Sion's only canonical line about Kreia surviving, by making it abundantly clear that Kreia was always intended to survive in spite of an intention on both Sion and Nihilus' parts to kill her. Therefore there is no alternative reading of what Sion says on the Harbinger; both he and Nihilus tried to kill her on Malachor V, and she survived.

You said it yourself: The report happens after Nar Shadda. If the report had anything to do with the 'past' situation, we would see the report after you finish the Peragus campaign, not later. C'mon, use logic, man.

That's because Sion didn't meet Nihilus again until then? He's part of a different "faction", as Visas calls it, of the Sith. He doesn't meet with Nihilus regularly, given even Visas doesn't know where Nihilus goes until Nihilus calls for her. If I learned some information about school/work and wanted to make a report in person to my teacher/boss, you'd excuse me for coming to see them on Monday morning instead of Saturday night.

Just stop being in denial.

Uhmm, these Sith have something, called: Communication Links

Definition of draft - a preliminary version of a piece of writing

I think the KotOR 2 script counts here because it isn't the current version.

Visas obviously can't communicate with Nihilus via holo whenever she wants, so why would Sion be able to?

The script counts in making it even more clear that Sion and Nihilus tried and failed to (immediately) kill Kreia.

Scripts are never identical to the final source, but they are supposed to be very close. I am not aware of anything major in the script that was not implemented solely due to creator decisions, as opposed to time constraints. So the script is close enough to convey author intent which is relative to my point.

That's obviously off-screen. Otherwise how would she keep contact with him while she is out there looking for the Exile?

Who said she keeps contact with him? She says she doesn't have knowledge of his whereabouts until he calls for her. So why would Sion? You're reaching.

Otherwise how would she keep contact with him while she is out there looking for the Exile? You are right that she doesn't know his whereabouts, but he does call for Visas when he needs her. How would both Sith Lords order their soldiers when they are out there fighting war campaigns across the galaxy?

As about the report, Sion'd report it shortly after he encountered Traya, not wait so much time. The fact that Sion found Nihilus' Ravager suggests he had to know his current location.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
Otherwise how would she keep contact with him while she is out there looking for the Exile? You are right that she doesn't know his whereabouts, but he does call for Visas when he needs her. How would both Sith Lords order their soldiers when they are out there fighting war campaigns across the galaxy?

As about the report, Sion'd report it shortly after he encountered Traya, not wait so much time. The fact that Sion found Nihilus' Ravager suggests he had to know his current location.

1. I presume he telepathically contacts her. If she could set up a holo with him, she'd know his physical location, which she doesn't.

There are all sorts of shenangians going on behind the Exile's back and they are clearly depicted on-screen in the game already. Your arbitrary claims of her contacting of Nihilus off-screen need to be supported with evidence or at least some sort of implication, neither of which exist. Nihilus clearly underestimates the extent of Visas' devotion to the Exile when they do meet. If anything the implication is that Visas hasn't kept in contact with Nihilus since joining the Exile.

2. Or Nihilus set up the meeting after he sensed the Exile's apparent death? Even if Sion did find it on his own, neither consider themselves accountable to the other. Sion wasn't travelling all that way just to talk about Kreia surviving, since at the time he still considered her irrelevant and no longer a threat (that's presumably why he spared her, after all). The main reason he went to Nihilus was to report the Exile's "demise" and end their alliance. Kreia's survival was a trivia tidbit that he threw in at the end. It obviously didn't merit reporting on its own; once again even when Sion knew she was alive he didn't consider her a threat.

For the purpose of this thread. We will debate it somewhere else.

https://youtu.be/QCxcJugMe_Y

Watch the clip and skip to 00:58

First of all; it was never Darth Nihilus the one to deliver the fatal blow; it was Sion. Because we see that she is still alive at 01:17
This makes no sense that Sion was referring the Darth Traya beat, on Malachor V, if he said it was Nihilus' fault in the cut-content.

Sion's statement of: "After all that has happened, still you live. You're difficult to kill." bears no evidence to support the argument they tried to kill her.

EDIT TO THE POST REGARDING SION'S STATEMENTS ON THE HARBINGER:

We have to understand that Kreia was cut off from the Force by the duo. And as Kreia mentioned: what are the Force-users if they couldn't wield the Force anymore?

Sion's second sentence doesn't refer to Traya's 'surviving' Darths Sion and Nihilus but rather her ability to stay alive even if she lost her touch with the Force(at least for a short time)
That's why Sion doesn't say: "After all that has happened, still you live?" Sion makes a sentence with the lack of the "?".
So, he was definitely alluding to Kreia's ability to stay alive even when she lost her touch with the Force.

When they exiled her, they were sure she was going to die somewhere in the corner of the galaxy due to her inability to use the Force.