Nihilus vs. Palpatine.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
Well, OK, I suppose it's possible he used telekinesis and whatnot, but the original claim was that the effects were somehow impossible to replicate technologically, and just "blasting" something clearly is, logistics about how long it takes to put a fleet into orbit notwithstanding. The only technique he has that would be so un-technological is his gigadrain, which doesn't really fit the phrase "blast".

Once again, the argument here is that he uses both, not that he didn't use the Force. I'm not saying this is what I'd assume if we didn't have the "blast" quote...but we do.

I also don't know why Nihilus couldn't have several cruisers given that he has a fleet...?

True. But considering that his ships were wrecks from the Mandalorian Wars, it's perfectly possible that they weren't functioning at full capacity. And Visas directly states they were not involved, which Unseen:Unheard reinforces.

Well I was thinking of some situations that are from later eras where tech has advanced considerably (e.g. Base Delta Zeroes) so you're right on that front.

On preparations though, if the only "prep" needed is to arrive at the planet in a proper positioning so as to maximize firing brackets (which is the only preparation that really makes sense in this context), that's just a matter of exiting hyperspace in particular locations, there's no reason to think that's beyond a fleet's capabilities so I don't see how this isn't plausible.

And if Nihilus is tactically hopeless and has no real control over his actions, then the same could be said about everyone else on his fleet. And considering that Malak didn't give the idea of precisely positioning the fleet any thought until Saul Karath brought it up makes me think that a being like Nihilus, who thinks purely on instinct, isn't going to consider them either.

Well, we can probably agree that "blast" likely does not mean "Force drain", which means that he either uses a fleet along with his drain or he telekinetically bombards the planet. I'm not saying the latter is impossible, I'm just honestly not sure which one is more reasonable.

Jesus Kenobi. Again this thread?! This is worse than Sidious vs Vitiate/Valkorion

About the "blasted into ruins" line. Vitiate's Ritual on Nathema did the same. It also affected buildings as well, even robots.

Blasted is just a way of saying that he brought Katarr to a waste land.

Not to mention that TCSWE is written by a bunch of biased Lucas canon writers(with Pablo and Wallace in charge)

And before someone says why didn't Nihilus insta-drain Telos is due to the fact that he didn't do it deliberately. He wanted to see if what Kreia said it was really true about there being Jedi. Because during the Dark Times, Jedi were thought to be extinct. Nihilus didn't want to risk in draining Telos. And once he found out the truth from Jedi Exile, he raged and attacked her. He couldn't drain Telos when he found the truth. He just had an enemy on his ship.

And Wounds in the Force can't drain each other(because both have a 'singularity' condition)

And using as argument Force powers that game bots execute on you is wrong(like Kreia draining you or Sion), due to the fact that Nihilus drains you when you play the game and he siphons your life points.

What is Nihilus risking by draining Telos? He has no regard for life at all, and he's getting fed either way. If the Jedi really are there, they'd be consumed anyway, and if not, he would just move on in search of them. @Nadd, Kreia draining you is a cutscene, not a game bot. lol

@The ongoing debate about TCSWE - We're not debating if Katarr involved bombardment. This is what I said:

We've got Katarr, which has ambiguous circumstances, Telos, where we see him failing to do the same thing with our own eyes despite being given ample time, and the other planets mentioned in TCSWE, which he drained after bombarding them from orbit.

Katarr is the ambiguous one, the "blasted" planets are the ones in TCSWE. I presumed Katarr was prepped with some sort of power gathering to account for the disparate performance, and that's plausible on the grounds that Nihilus sensed Katarr long ahead of time and that the planet called to him like a beacon from way across the galaxy. Given Nihilus almost single-handedly destroyed the Jedi there, it's reasonable to assume that none of the other planets he attacked would've had the same properties.

The point on taking hours to prep the feat is true but that also exposes the fact that Katarr was very clearly a surprise attack. Palpatine (or more or less anyone Nihilus fights in a versus board scenario) here is a prepared opponent.

I don't really care if the bombardment is from the Ravager or Nihilus' other Force powers, as both cases serve my point that it's not the singular act of Drain destroying the planets.

@Lazybones - The range argument is fair. I assume you mean that he just couldn't accelerate his ship there in time, as opposed to Citadel Station being some sort of obstruction to him?

It's possible Katarr was bombarded from orbit.

It isn't.

The only source that even implies such doesn't even get his death right. It's contradicted by literally every other source on the matter.

TCSWE does get a lot wrong on KotOR II (it's hard to name a source that doesn't), but that doesn't mean we can throw out new information being published from the source as it's not explicitly contradicted. That's especially the case for those of you who cite Chronicles of the Old Republic.

Originally posted by SunRazer

@Lazybones - The range argument is fair. I assume you mean that he just couldn't accelerate his ship there in time, as opposed to Citadel Station being some sort of obstruction to him? [/B]

Or we could subscribe to the fact that the entire point is that he can't drain Telos IV, that's the reason it's a trap. The planet is 90% dead. Hence why he'd destroy the Station.

Telos IV isn't devoid of life, and both Visas and Tobin confirm that he'd feed on it anyway for what little sustenance it can offer.

Originally posted by lazybones
Yeah, I think he was unable to accelerate to the same position/range as he was before the Katarr attack, which may be the sort of distance he needs before he can pull off his drain. The difference between where he was at Katarr and where he was at Telos is big enough to make me think that it could be decisive, and would explain why he didn't just drain it instantly. Needed to get in range first.

Well, it's interesting that Telos was able to react and defend itself so prematurely if Nihilus was that far away, while Nihilus managed to get right on top of Katarr without being noticed. Do you have anything to say about my other points?

For god's sake, it was blatantly stated that he is after planets rich in Force energy(Telos was anything but that). When he heard that there are Jedi on Telos due to Kreia's machinations, he must have thought that there are lots of them; enough worth to be drained. That's the reason Nihilus ordered the attack on Telos before visiting it and draining it. He was checking it out. Also, as another member has added; he can only do it if he is in the vicinity of the planet.

Visas, who has been with him since he has drained other worlds, is somehow an unreliable source in comparison to a dumb 'official' statement?

She stated he does the drain and the destruction via the Force. Period.

As about Katarr; they didn't even know he was coming, nor they could sense him. The reason they 'sensed' him in the Telos Battles is because he attacked and revealed himself.

Note: Nihilus must have a reason to keep Visas with him. I believe that as his hunger increased, his Force senses also diminished 'til he became almost like an animal. It's entirely possible that his ability to sense planets rich in Force energy diminished exponentially along with his mental senses.

Originally posted by SunRazer

Well, it's interesting that Telos was able to react and defend itself so prematurely if Nihilus was that far away, while Nihilus managed to get right on top of Katarr without being noticed. Do you have anything to say about my other points?

As for your other points, it is possible that Nihilus gathered his powers for Katarr. But there's no explicit evidence to believe that was the case. It seems that he carried the attack out in a very short period of time, and any sort of prep isn't really alluded to. And the assumption that Nihilus prepped isn't really necessary to understand and reconcile the feat provided you take his hype at mostly face value, so I don't see why we need to make it.

Although as for Katarr being a surprise attack, that's certainly the case. But I'm not arguing that Katarr would immediately afford Nihilus the win against Palpatine or even anyone in the same general tier as him, so that doesn't particularly concern me. Against a well-prepared opponent with strong force barriers, he is not going to be able to freely exert power of that magnitude. But he has got that power within him, and it's more than what we've seen from an overwhelming majority of the mythos. My main point here is that orbital bombardment is not even conclusively supported by the source generally touted on the matter, and is directly contradicted by other competing sources including the primary source. Nihilus accomplished his planetary level feats with his own power, was my original point. Not that it's power that he'll necessarily be able to pull off on a whim against powerful opponents with no limits.

Originally posted by lazybones
I'd imagine that's got to do with the Republic fleet in orbit around Telos, which would have alerted Citadel Station as soon as the Ravager appeared out of hyperspace. Katarr didn't have that, which would have allowed Nihilus to drop out of hyperspace closer and accelerate with no hindrances.

As for your other points, it is possible that Nihilus gathered his powers for Katarr. But there's no explicit evidence to believe that was the case. It seems that he carried the attack out in a very short period of time, and any sort of prep isn't really alluded to. And the assumption that Nihilus prepped isn't really necessary to understand and reconcile the feat provided you take his hype at mostly face value, so I don't see why we need to make it.

Although as for Katarr being a surprise attack, that's certainly the case. But I'm not arguing that Katarr would immediately afford Nihilus the win against Palpatine or even anyone in the same general tier as him, so that doesn't particularly concern me. Against a well-prepared opponent with strong force barriers, he is not going to be able to freely exert power of that magnitude. But he has got that power within him, and it's more than what we've seen from an overwhelming majority of the mythos. My main point here is that orbital bombardment is not even conclusively supported by the source generally touted on the matter, and is directly contradicted by other competing sources including the primary source. Nihilus accomplished his planetary level feats with his own power, was my original point. Not that it's power that he'll necessarily be able to pull off on a whim against powerful opponents with no limits.

1. Yep, that makes sense. At the very least, this debunks the use of sourcebook game mechanic stats which apparently state that Nihilus can extend his drain to the range of many star systems.

2. It goes back to being an assumption that I made because of how rarely he managed to pull something like that among all the planets he attacked, as well as the fact that we know Nihilus knew about Katarr well in advance and could even sense the Force users on the planet from far away, giving him ample time to prepare.

And I'm not sure about taking Nihilus' hype at face value as most of it is poetic in nature and some of it has been outright wrong before.

3. Once again, the bombardment point refers to the various other planets that Nihilus was stated to have fed upon in the TCSWE, not Katarr. Although really, I think Nihilus' track record of feeding on individuals is more pertinent to a one-on-one battle than his record of feeding on planets. That opens other cans of worms that I mentioned in the previous pages.

Originally posted by Freedon Nadd
For god's sake, it was blatantly stated that he is after planets rich in Force energy(Telos was anything but that). When he heard that there are Jedi on Telos due to Kreia's machinations, he must have thought that there are lots of them; enough worth to be drained. That's the reason Nihilus ordered the attack on Telos before visiting it and draining it. He was checking it out. Also, as another member has added; he can only do it if he is in the vicinity of the planet.

Firstly, what other planets would've been rich in the Force? Nihilus destroyed presumably most of the Jedi Order on Katarr, and we have to set aside room for Sion and his assassins to kill many others. We also know that several other Jedi (the Masters we see in KotOR II) went into hiding. With a starting count of less than a hundred Jedi, the remaining Jedi combined on a planet wouldn't have been able to make a planet "rich" in the Force, certainly no moreso than Telos (I recall early on at the beach, Kreia stops you to talk about the strength of the Force in the place).

Secondly, the "checking out" thing makes sense, but only to an extent. It's outright stated in the game that he was going to feed on Telos anyway to sustain himself with what little the planet could offer. It makes little sense that he'd spend that much time worrying about whether or not he could sense the Jedi given how indiscriminate he is towards life. He would consume it anyway.

The vicinity argument is the only one that makes sense. I've already accepted that one.

Visas, who has been with him since he has drained other worlds, is somehow an unreliable source in comparison to a dumb 'official' statement?

She stated he does the drain and the destruction via the Force. Period.

She states he drained Katarr with the Force and not technological weapons. She doesn't say it for any of the other planets, which is my point. And once again, whether you treat "bombardment" as being done by ships or Nihilus' Force powers, my point stands.

As about Katarr; they didn't even know he was coming, nor they could sense him. The reason they 'sensed' him in the Telos Battles is because he attacked and revealed himself.

That also devalues the Katarr feat, of course, as it's a surprise attack.

Note: Nihilus must have a reason to keep Visas with him. I believe that as his hunger increased, his Force senses also diminished 'til he became almost like an animal. It's entirely possible that his ability to sense planets rich in Force energy diminished exponentially along with his mental senses.

She survived the initial attack somehow, so Nihilus spared her. After that, he wanted to make her "see" his vision of the galaxy, and from then on he kept her as a Shadow Hand and used her for the purposes you stated. She tells the Exile outright that she can see things her master can't.

Originally posted by SunRazer
2. It goes back to being an assumption that I made because of how rarely he managed to pull something like that among all the planets he attacked, as well as the fact that we know Nihilus knew about Katarr well in advance and could even sense the Force users on the planet from far away, giving him ample time to prepare.

And I'm not sure about taking Nihilus' hype at face value as most of it is poetic in nature and some of it has been outright wrong before.

3. Once again, the bombardment point refers to the various other planets that Nihilus was stated to have fed upon in the TCSWE, not Katarr. Although really, I think Nihilus' track record of feeding on individuals is more pertinent to a one-on-one battle than his record of feeding on planets. That opens other cans of worms that I mentioned in the previous pages.

And regarding Nihilus' track record on feeding individuals, it is different from his track record against planets. Although his most notable feat against an individual (Traya) was presumably vastly pre-Prime, so I'm not sure that would be a very accurate portrayal of his limits and powers either.

Most of that is agreeable. The lack of information on any of these other worlds is a bit of a problem. But again, whether the blasts were Force powers or technology, it doesn't bode well for Nihilus.

But we've deviated a lot from the thread now, especially if you agree that the planet feeding isn't relevant to this fight.

This thread shows Nihilus wank at it's best.

Originally posted by SunRazer
Firstly, what other planets would've been rich in the Force? Nihilus destroyed presumably most of the Jedi Order on Katarr, and we have to set aside room for Sion and his assassins to kill many others.

1. It is stated that Nihilus goes after planets rich in the Force
2. The galaxy is very big. It could be 'true' that they didn't wipe out all the Jedi
3. You have also to take in account that Nihilus was in the Hunger-mode when he initiated the attack on Telos. When he heard the rumor that the Jedi gathered on Telos; he immediately took it as proof and went there to check it out

We also know that several other Jedi (the Masters we see in KotOR II) went into hiding. With a starting count of less than a hundred Jedi, the remaining Jedi combined on a planet wouldn't have been able to make a planet "rich" in the Force, certainly no moreso than Telos (I recall early on at the beach, Kreia stops you to talk about the strength of the Force in the place).

As said above, when opportunity came for Nihilus, he immediately took advantage of it. Also, keep in mind that the Jedi are natural enemies to the Sith; so it would make sense he would go to drain them to sate his Hunger. But because he didn't have any longer Visas with him to confirm it; and he didn't 'sense' them either on Telos; he stood and awaited for confirmation on his Ravager. Also, as said before; the Hunger brought him almost to basic actions.
Even the Jedi Exile and her team boarded on his ship; and he didn't notice it.
What I try to say is that the only thing that mattered to him at that point was the draining of Jedi on Telos.

If you don't want this answer; you could say that he thought that those Jedi(who are just a machination) were serving as a greater food collectively than the entire planet of Katarr(that they were stronger in the Force than the planet)

Secondly, the "checking out" thing makes sense, but only to an extent. It's outright stated in the game that he was going to feed on Telos anyway to sustain himself with what little the planet could offer. It makes little sense that he'd spend that much time worrying about whether or not he could sense the Jedi given how indiscriminate he is towards life. He would consume it anyway.

No one said he gives a frying pan about life. But it was explicitly stated that he goes only after planets rich in Force energy; and Telos was anything but that. That's why he attacked Telos(with his forces) in the first place and waited. He wanted to see if those rumors were true. That's why he sent his forces in the first place and not brought himself with the Ravager on Telos.

Visas says that when Nihilus finds out the truth; he'd still cleanse it of life because he was desperate to quell his Hunger.
That's why he didn't attack Telos; he needed a confirmation.

By the time he figures out, the Jedi Exile also says:

"Kreia has lied to you-there are no Jedi here. You have sensed it."

Now, you will say: But why the hell didn't he order his forces to retreat?

1. Because he was in the middle of a challenge. After all you saw that he was so hungry and desperate; that he tried to drain the Exile and it backfired at him.
2. If he'd have killed the Exile and her team; he'd have still drained Telos as Visas blatantly puts it. But he just didn't want to accept the truth that it was all a fabrication of Traya. Hence the Jedi Exile said to him that Kreia indirectly betrayed him or manipulated him.

She states he drained Katarr with the Force and not technological weapons. She doesn't say it for any of the other planets, which is my point.

If Nihilus devoid Katarr of Force and not other planets; then Visas would have pointed this out to the Exile.

That also devalues the Katarr feat, of course, as it's a surprise attack.

It doesn't devalue $hit. You are just pissed because this guy can casually drain planets of life.
There are many sources that state that; and yet, you are against them. It's like you don't want to accept that a Sith Lord(Nihilus) is able to do that on a planetary scale with relative ease. I bet that if it were Sidious; you'd immediately accept this as fact without the need of looking 'deeper' in the words.

She survived the initial attack somehow, so Nihilus spared her. After that, he wanted to make her "see" his vision of the galaxy, and from then on he kept her as a Shadow Hand and used her for the purposes you stated. She tells the Exile outright that she can see things her master can't.

She didn't survive his attack. Nihilus is the one who didn't kill her deliberately. He was looking for a seer-due to their ability of peering through the Force.

And my last point to make; you do realize that if bombing was really at stake in his wide-planetary drain; then Nihilus would have to bomb all the planet in each section for that?

Even Vitiate's Nathema Ritual has shown that even buildings are affected by drain.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
There were thousands of them on Korriban and they're supposed to attack intruders, sooo...

Originally posted by The Ellimist
But they are gone, you can see it...

The Korriban sith try to attack Palpatine the first time, then the second time only a few remain and they're scared of him. It's not too difficult to connect the dots.