Nihilus vs. Palpatine.

Originally posted by darthbane77
I'm not saying it is, necessarily. But Nihilus has MULTIPLE worlds worth of power in him. Personally, I feel anyone with even a single world's worth of power is gonna be able to at least give Sidious some level of pause.

Anyway, I'll get back to this later. I've been in four debates at once for at least the passed hour or so, and my mind is getting fried. I'll come back when I'm fresh.

Even PoD Bane has more than a planet's worth of power according to the Huntress. You really wanna go down this route?

Originally posted by AncientPower

So the Exile fought more powerful creatures but we're just gonna assume they summoned weaker zombies to fight Palpatine? Lol OK.

Originally posted by Azronger
Even PoD Bane has more than a planet's worth of power according to the Huntress. You really wanna go down this route?

Cognus saw Ambrias destruction but claims Bane is the most powerful Dark Side source she's sensed. This actually fits well witg his accolades of being the strongest Sith in history up to his time.

@AP - If he can consume entire planets with a thought (or really, just on a whim), then surely he'd do just that as soon as the Exile reveals that Kreia has lied to him.

For that matter, he doesn't really need to search for the Jedi anyway. If he could just consume the planet anyway, given his indiscriminate disregard for life he'd just do it and he'd be able to tell if there were Jedi or not based on what he felt he was feeding upon. Visas herself states that Nihilus will feed on Telos even if there aren't any Jedi, to sate himself for a time.

The surprise would surely only be momentary. There's no reason for him to spend all that time using Force Sense on the world instead of just gobbling it up and moving on.

None of this changes my position, and none of them address his use of orbital bombardment per TCSWE, which accounts for the vast majority of planets he's drained.

Nihilus needing to destroy Citadel Station somewhat implies his drain on a large scale can't be performed on a whim.

Precisely. The idea that it's some effortless, breezy thing for him to consume entire planetful populations is a notion only supported in hyperbolic text. There's zero physical precedent for it, and in fact considerable evidence for the opposite.

I'm not saying it's effortless but what you're using isn't a valid indication otherwise.

Well it's possible he could destroy the Citadel via TK.

I'm gonna go with Sidious by virtue of him being better than N.

I'm slightly confused as to why the 'blast into ruins' quote from TCSWE is interpreted as meaning orbital bombardment. I mean, aside from TCSWE being a source riddled with errors in regards to KotOR, such as suggesting that Kreia 'fled' an unconscious Exile on Dantooine, it simply isn't possible or practical. According to Saul Karath in KotOR I, it takes 'several hours' for a fleet to be positioned for bombardment of a planet. And that was with a fleet that already had surrounded Taris in a planetwide quarantine, and that was much bigger to boot. Several hours is plenty of time for residents to flee, and the idea that the inhabitants of Nihilus' target planets never looked up at the sky for several hours while about half a dozen, black, conspicuous ships moved across the sky, is laughable. Visas also point-blank said that is it was not a thing done with machines or weapons, and suggested that it was done in an instant (as fast as he 'spoke'😉. Granted, she is quite hyperbolic about her descriptions of Nihilus, but her statement that it was not done with technology seemed pretty deadpan and matter-of-fact. This is corroborated with the KotOR Campaign Guide (Saga Edition), which states that Katarr was indeed pulled off by an 'unholy darkside technique', and 'Power Beyond Belief', which states that Nihilus consumed planets with but a 'thought'. Unseen:Unheard also seems to depict a near-instataneous assault, with Visas' hyperbolic speech matched up with corresponding images. And even if you still afford Visas' statements less value because of her hyperbole, the fact is that she was the only eyewitness of the event that you ever get to talk to in-game, (except Nihilus himself, ofc). And TCSWE is the only source which seems to fly directly in the face of her account, which hardly has a perfect track record on matters relating to KotOR.

The Telos question could simply be an issue of range. If you look at the window on the Ravager bridge in KotOR II, you can see that the Ravager is still a reasonable distance away from Telos. Whereas in Unseen:Unheard, Nihilus is depicted as being directly overhead. Perhaps that's the range he needs to be in to pull it off instantly.

And there are alternate explanations for the quote anyway. After all, it is possible to 'blast' things with telekinesis or pyrokineses (indeed, Tobin suggests that Nihilus would 'bring fire' to Telos, referring to Nihilus directly rather than his fleet).

Not that this affects the outcome of this fight. Sidious still wins very handily, but the TCSWE quote doesn't match up with other evidence.

Interesting, didn't know you posted here lazy.

Originally posted by ILS
Interesting, didn't know you posted here lazy.

Also some sources for those interested:

Of...of course, not my Lord Malak. I will do as you command. But it will take several hours to position our fleet.

Source: Saul Karath, on the bombardment of Taris, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic (link)

It was not a thing done with machines or weapons. The Force is far more terrible. And it touches more lives than any machine can hope to slay.

Source: Visas Marr, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II (link)

Through an unholy dark side technique, Nihilus murders every living being on Katarr, including Master Tokare

Source: Star Wars - Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide Saga Edition (link)-page 139.

With the power of the Dark Side , Nihilus obliterates all life on Katarr - all but Visas Marr.

Source: Star Wars - Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide Saga Edition (link)-page 140.

Amazingly dark and devastating powers are the purview of some of the greatest Sith Lords of the Knights of the Old Republic era. They cheat death repeatedly. They devastate and consume entire worlds with a thought.

Source: Power Beyond Belief - Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition (link) - Page 224

Clear difference in distance, and potentially big enough to be decisive factor to how quickly he can pull it off.

My master was forced to come here. He [Nihilus] will destroy all of Telos. He will turn it to fire again and crush the planet beneath him. He will devour them all, murder them all

Source: Colonel Tobin, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic II (link)

**** me, is the orbital bombardment horseshit really still a thing? 😬

Good job lazybones. Hopefully people finally give up on this shit. I especially like SunRazer claiming that he obviously can't do it with a thought when the text literally says "They devastate and consume entire worlds with a thought."

lazybones, that Nihilus drained Katarr isn't mutually exclusive from the stated observation that he used bombardment beforehand. The only contradictory quotes you really have are:

- that it's "not a thing done with machines or weapons"...right, the actual act of draining life from the world and eating the Force wasn't. Not a contradiction.

- that it would take several hours to get a fleet in a completely different context into orbit; really reaching there as we can find examples where that isn't the case, and in this case they may have better prepared their formations rather than suddenly having to arrange themselves on command, etc.

I do not yet see basis to toss out the quote.

Did you miss the quotes that directly state that "Through an unholy dark side technique, Nihilus murders every living being on Katarr," and "With the power of the Dark Side , Nihilus obliterates all life on Katarr "?

Theres no statement about orbital bombardment. The quote says he drained worlds that "he blasted into ruin." He blasted them into ruin with the Force, with his drain.

Originally posted by The Ellimist
lazybones, that Nihilus drained Katarr isn't mutually exclusive from the stated observation that he used bombardment beforehand.

- that it's "not a thing done with machines or weapons"...right, the actual act of draining life from the world and eating the Force wasn't.

"To kill on such a scale... it's impossible. I don't understand - it would have taken several Republic cruisers to destroy the surface of Katarr."

https://youtu.be/NkbtWLGpz8k?t=6m27s

So, the Exile literally floats the idea of orbital bombardment, and it's shot down. Visas weaves in the bit about life being expunged into her answer about the destruction of the surface, because the destruction of the planet and the draining of life were done nigh-simultaneously. As is shown in Unseen:Unheard, when Katarr is seen as going from tranquil to devastated in just a mere few panels.

https://youtu.be/KHSstYl9Yfs?t=39s

No lasers or capital ship bombardments. Explosions and buildings crumbling, yes, but those can be produced by the Force.

- that it would take several hours to get a fleet in a completely different context into orbit; really reaching there as we can find examples where that isn't the case,

and in this case they may have better prepared their formations rather than suddenly having to arrange themselves on command, etc.

And again, the idea of bombardment isn't even conclusively stated in the quote from TCSWE, so going to these lengths to make it fit is flat out unnecessary.

It seems that Nihilus using his powers to destroy the planet's surface is the most parsimonious assumption here. Just like how it's reasonable to assume that Plagueis' personal power affected the nexus of Naboo, causing it to freeze over.

Originally posted by lazybones
Where is it stated unambiguously that he used bombardment? As I said, 'blast into ruin' does not necessarily have to refer to orbital bombardment, but also telekineses and pyrokineses, which actually corroborate with Tobin's words and the Saga Edition guide, which mentions that Nihilus used an 'unholy dark side technique' and 'the power of the Dark Side'. The latter quote is particularly clear.

Well, OK, I suppose it's possible he used telekinesis and whatnot, but the original claim was that the effects were somehow impossible to replicate technologically, and just "blasting" something clearly is, logistics about how long it takes to put a fleet into orbit notwithstanding. The only technique he has that would be so un-technological is his gigadrain, which doesn't really fit the phrase "blast".

Well, let's view the conversation in context. In order to elicit that response from Marr, the Exile must note:

"To kill on such a scale... it's impossible. I don't understand - it would have taken several Republic cruisers to destroy the surface of Katarr."

https://youtu.be/NkbtWLGpz8k?t=6m27s

So, the Exile literally floats the idea of orbital bombardment, and it's shot down. Visas weaves in the bit about life being expunged into her answer about the destruction of the surface, because the destruction of the planet and the draining of life were done nigh-simultaneously. As is shown in Unseen:Unheard, when Katarr is seen as going from tranquil to devastated in just a mere few panels.

https://youtu.be/KHSstYl9Yfs?t=39s

No lasers or capital ship bombardments. Explosions and buildings crumbling, yes, but those can be produced by the Force.

Once again, the argument here is that he uses both, not that he didn't use the Force. I'm not saying this is what I'd assume if we didn't have the "blast" quote...but we do.

I also don't know why Nihilus couldn't have several cruisers given that he has a fleet...?

Any examples? If we're literally told that a bigger fleet from the same era (and much better tactical leadership), is unable to bombard the planet without several hours prep beforehand despite already surrounding the planet in an inescapable quarantine, then I see no position why we should assume why Nihilus would be in better reason to do so.

Except in Unseen:Unheard, we don't see Nihilus make any additional preparations. He just rolls up to the planet and destroys it. And Visas says that her people never saw him. Had his fleet been preparing then they could have been seen visibly.

Well I was thinking of some situations that are from later eras where tech has advanced considerably (e.g. Base Delta Zeroes) so you're right on that front.

On preparations though, if the only "prep" needed is to arrive at the planet in a proper positioning so as to maximize firing brackets (which is the only preparation that really makes sense in this context), that's just a matter of exiting hyperspace in particular locations, there's no reason to think that's beyond a fleet's capabilities so I don't see how this isn't plausible.

And again, the idea of bombardment isn't even conclusively stated in the quote from TCSWE, so going to these lengths to make it fit is flat out unnecessary.

Well, we can probably agree that "blast" likely does not mean "Force drain", which means that he either uses a fleet along with his drain or he telekinetically bombards the planet. I'm not saying the latter is impossible, I'm just honestly not sure which one is more reasonable.

Since when is telekinesis "an unholy dark side technique"?

Unseen, Unheard shows us the planet being devestated by a giant black cloud.

No ships anywhere, even in an orbital shot, no lasers, no explosions. Only Nihilus' attack causing the destruction. You literally see a shot from orbit of the attack reaching a city, the destruction in progress and then Visas fleeing with the destruction in the progress and nowhere are there any ships or lasers. They literally show you a shot from orbit right before the attack. No ships. What a surprise.

Vitiates destruction of Ziost caused massive destruction of the planet and disintegrated the population as well. Sources directly state that "Through an unholy dark side technique, Nihilus murders every living being on Katarr," and "With the power of the Dark Side , Nihilus obliterates all life on Katarr ."