Originally posted by Delta1938
Machine Man example was so plot devicey? Damn, if only Orion had something on him, that's part of his standard equipment, that's proven by both him and others to be very plot devicey. If only.....As for him blasting Graviton, I've pointed out that the argument of him being more a brute force fighter is largely because that's mostly what he faces, but we have seen him go different routes, sometimes off the bat, when facing something he can't punch it blast his way through. The rule of basic knowledge should give him enough that he very well may be going other routes off the bat.
Exactly.
This match is pretty much Orion's to lose. Graviton has lost to Machine Man's plot device parts and tech, and can lose to TP. Arguably the Astro Force, being able to contain a universal bomb, and cause earthquakes on Earth sufficient to tear the Earth apart WHILST HE'S ON THE MOON is also beyond Graviton to shield against.
Whereas the Graviton camp is basically scaling and using ABC logic.
'Look at Surfer's highest feats! Look at Thor's highest feats! Graviton made FOOLS of them, fools I tell you! He's above all that!'
Meanwhile Mungi is rubbing himself.
And for those saying ooooh Machine Man is a low showing....aren't we meant to take those into account? I don't think it's an outlier, I think him taking out Marvel Earth is an outlier!!
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Exactly.This match is pretty much Orion's to lose. Graviton has lost to Machine Man's plot device parts and tech, and can lose to TP. Arguably the Astro Force, being able to contain a universal bomb, and cause earthquakes on Earth sufficient to tear the Earth apart WHILST HE'S ON THE MOON is also beyond Graviton to shield against.
Whereas the Graviton camp is basically scaling and using ABC logic.
'Look at Surfer's highest feats! Look at Thor's highest feats! Graviton made FOOLS of them, fools I tell you! He's above all that!'
Meanwhile Mungi is rubbing himself.
And for those saying ooooh Machine Man is a low showing....aren't we meant to take those into account? I don't think it's an outlier, I think him taking out Marvel Earth is an outlier!!
I think i’ve gotten my answer here though (the fight’s not Orion’s to lose, its an uphill battle for him to win), so thanks everyone, especially you, DS, you know how to keep a conversation going.
But on the fly, a Motherbox can replicate what the Thundrbolts did with prep.....
It can do it without any prep. As seen with the scan I used to support my stance.
He was attacked, Orion just, whilst losing, told MB to reverse the polarity of their attacks. And it does it. Like a wishing machine. He wishes for it to happen, and it did.
Haha, best buddies, let's shake on it 😛
Edit: was slightly influenced by how Motherboxes are treated:
https://theragingfanboy.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/finalcrisis6-miraclemachine001.jpg
That's the miracle machine. The ultimate wishing machine. But what is the miracle machine?
A cargo cult Motherbox.
👆. I would be interested in seeing some feats for Graviton at some point - not being snarky, but a lot of the Graviton camp just tossed around terms like Skyfather and trans and named famous characters he's beaten/fought.
When let's be honest, you could do the same with Batman in DC lol. Or Superman, but let's not go there.
Well technically he (the version of Graviton being used) beat everyone on earth.
And the same -is- done for Bats and Supes. All the time.
Still, i guess i would have been more open to your interpretation of feats/events, if one of the earliest to set up camp for Orion hadnt spoiled it for everyone else by planting your flag in a pile of dung.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Checked it, CPB was actually self destructing basically, because of a failsafe the Guardians put in if someone from Sinestro's race were killed. Yellow impurity was even taking over. It seemed to have something to do with Sinestro pulling it off, based on what he said. I thought he'd been imprisoned in the CPB before, but whether he was or not, this isn't one of the times as the GLC voted to execute him and had done it, and his sentience went into the CPB.
Yes indeed. Ive skimmed through the story to jog my memory and that's true. However, being trapped in the CPB doesn't mean he has auto-access to it, it was supposed to serve as a prison for him after all. A later story, from what i recall, also had Dr Light imprisoned inside the CPB and he couldn't do jack. Even though his power set is uniquely suited to tap into such a reservoir of energy. So what im trying to say is that Sinestro didn't just do it because of a stipulation (being trapped in it) but because he had the power to. You could even argue the same thing for Parallax who was trapped all these years in the CPB and yet couldn't get ahold of it. Something of note is that the sinestro fiasco is somewhat similar to the recent Darkseid War instance -- where the mother box had to be directly in contact with the CPB to access it.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Not sure what Hal did here. Did he just tap into the CPB or drain it? It doesn't look like he drained it, but that's just on what you showed. I guess I can check later if you're not able to tell without tracking it down.
Well, Hal and the other GLs usually tap into their little individual batteries (via recharging) which are in turn small components of the CPB. In this particular example, Hal tapped into the CPB itself to subdue the monstrous creature.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Nope, I hadn't read Anti-Monitor example (read very few COIE tie-ins) but cool to see.Not sure what Evil Star means by "negate" since it's not clear if he's doing that right then in the scan since it's glowing. If he actually turned it off or just blocked it from powering others. Either wouldn't be the best showing for the CPB, but blocking in a way so Power Rings didn't work isn't the same as what the MB did on merging with it and seeming to take control.
That scan is really all the context there is in regards to that: Evil Star fooled the guardians by thinking he was imprisoned and helpless, while he had a duplicate star-band with which he used to nullify the CPB from his prison (so what makes it more impressive, is that he did it without direct contact with the CPB). And you'll notice that he could also power it up again temporarily to lure hal in, so that proves pretty conclusively that Evil Star was able to tap into it. For reference, Evil Star was pretty powerful back then, he even managed to destroy hal's power ring and has tooled him several times in other stories and has paralyzed/subdued the guardians twice -- although he does have his limits (for instance, i recall years later he was unable to make a sun go nova)
Originally posted by Delta1938
Gotta ask why you're bringing up the Guardian retcon for the CPB? My guess on Evil Star being because things being more income in those days, level of power not yet being established(haven't read enough of GL from then to know if this would be the case) or both. Also I misread what you said about those examples.
Ah yes, i should have clarified. I was trying to put things in perspective. Because in Evil Star's example, Evil Star easily paralyzes all the guardians (and he's done it twice), so i wanted to provide a bit of context to that from today's standpoint of continuity. The recent era of GL has established several times that Guardians don't interfere (much like the watchers), even when they are threatened directly.
As for Guardians' power level in that era -- Even before The evil star instance which happened in 60s the guardians could do things like nullify earth destroying energies with their presence and depower/repower Hal on a whim. While GL's power was also established to be pretty high -- being able to mindrape entire populations, create worlds, re-ignite suns, molecular/atomic manipulation abilities and those are solely before the Evil Star instance. After that there were even more. It's just that they were more susceptible to defeats in those days, a single weaponers' (of qward) ship one-shotted them all, and a creature -- which couldn't even mindrape black canary -- mindraped them all. Current Guardians aren't taken down so easily.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Far as I know, it's only been depicted as absolutely massive when they do talk about the size of either New Genesis or Apokolips(though they usually don't talk about the size). And that's pretty cool, but, and this may yet again be something you have to check 😆 was it Superboy was directly amped or it used TK to boost his? More curiosity than makes a difference in MB's scale of power.
It amped his TK: https://imgur.com/mqhQ8aO
Originally posted by Delta1938
I agree the telepathy route is more concrete, but if MB has shown massive scale of power multiple other areas, it's certainly plausible he could manipulate gravity on that scale. It not working on Graviton's powers is an argument, the example DS brought up could be a really low showing, could have been accomplished differently enough than what Orion has done with MB, but still a plausible tactic.
Fair enough. Although i do have a hard time imagining him beating Graviton at his own game.
Originally posted by cdtm
If they are the "most loyal" of Darkseids minions, it stands to reason Orion's tangled with them before.Odds are, Mother Box's nullify their powers as easily as Infinity Man did.
Orion was established to be below Infinity man even back then. And he never encountered the gravi guards directly.
However, your example does have some merit in regards to Infinity Man, given that he was able to nullify their powers and IM's power source is... the source/ALE. The same power source the mother box taps into, and it has shown the capability to tap into the ALE although only in direct contact (with those mortals that had it in their heads).
It's not conclusive of anything of course but it is an interesting example worth mentioning.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
👆. I would be interested in seeing some feats for Graviton at some point - not being snarky, but a lot of the Graviton camp just tossed around terms like Skyfather and trans and named famous characters he's beaten/fought.When let's be honest, you could do the same with Batman in DC lol. Or Superman, but let's not go there.
And all you had to is ask. 🙂
Im assuming you are familiar with his thunderbolts feats? so i won't have to post them.
Graviton vs Avengers. Just an all around stompage fest: https://imgur.com/a/OmtIGSp
Now with thor: https://imgur.com/qLUE2bb
He also easily lifted a city-sized chunk of the earth: https://imgur.com/1zJwwCD
And put a shield which no one could pierce: https://imgur.com/4eMKAX8
Now with the WCA: https://imgur.com/a/zV6VsGe https://imgur.com/a/yWZbJXS
He was KO'd due to a drug administered to him beforehand.
again: https://imgur.com/a/Fekjn2Q
He could also control light waves, btw (which technically shouldn't be affected by gravity unless the writer had relativity taken into account which makes his gravitational powers all the more impressive): https://imgur.com/r8s7Swz
We get an idea of the extend of his powers where we see him increase his own mass/density into infinity becoming a singularity/black hole (technically he's done this multiple times but it was only this time that he did intentionally -- increased his mass to infinity -- as opposed to the other times where he simply lost control): https://imgur.com/a/DxdwiuF
Recently though he's been watered down a bit, when he re-appeared as being part of AIM's council he said that he regenerated from mere atoms: https://imgur.com/FSJjRP9
Takes apart unity squad: https://imgur.com/a/DUREk6i
Puts up a shield which avengers/unity squad couldn't break (including jane thor): https://imgur.com/a/8GKOZzm
Although naturally, Quasar (Avril) was able to break it single handedly since she has a thing for shields.
Originally posted by operator616
Orion was established to be below Infinity man even back then. And he never encountered the gravi guards directly.However, your example does have some merit in regards to Infinity Man, given that he was able to nullify their powers and IM's power source is... the source/ALE. The same power source the mother box taps into, and it has shown the capability to tap into the ALE although only in direct contact (with those mortals that had it in their heads).
It's not conclusive of anything of course but it is an interesting example worth mentioning.
And all you had to is ask. 🙂
Im assuming you are familiar with his thunderbolts feats? so i won't have to post them.
Graviton vs Avengers. Just an all around stompage fest: https://imgur.com/a/OmtIGSp
Now with thor: https://imgur.com/qLUE2bb
He also easily lifted a city-sized chunk of the earth: https://imgur.com/1zJwwCD
And put a shield which no one could pierce: https://imgur.com/4eMKAX8Now with the WCA: https://imgur.com/a/zV6VsGe https://imgur.com/a/yWZbJXS
He was KO'd due to a drug administered to him beforehand.
again: https://imgur.com/a/Fekjn2Q
He could also control light waves, btw (which technically shouldn't be affected by gravity unless the writer had relativity taken into account which makes his gravitational powers all the more impressive): https://imgur.com/r8s7Swz
We get an idea of the extend of his powers where we see him increase his own mass/density into infinity becoming a singularity/black hole (technically he's done this multiple times but it was only this time that he did intentionally -- increased his mass to infinity -- as opposed to the other times where he simply lost control): https://imgur.com/a/DxdwiuF
Recently though he's been watered down a bit, when he re-appeared as being part of AIM's council he said that he regenerated from mere atoms: https://imgur.com/FSJjRP9
Takes apart unity squad: https://imgur.com/a/DUREk6i
Puts up a shield which avengers/unity squad couldn't break (including jane thor): https://imgur.com/a/8GKOZzm
Although naturally, Quasar (Avril) was able to break it single handedly since she has a thing for shields.
Just curious, where would Quasar (Avril) be at in terms of DC? Planetary?
I kinda find it PIS she did something Jane Thor couldn't. Mjolnir's pretty powerful
graviton does have some crazy feats which are easily checked on any respect thread. his highs are WELL beyond his lows from what i've seen, one shown where he had a head injury 😂 and the other the mm tech. but that's not the issue here. the problem with using the MB as a plot device to win is simple: what's to stop that reason from extending to ALL of orion's fights, exactly? orion v superman? pfft. orion tells MB to shoot him with constant blasts of k-nite! it could happen since all orion has to do is wish it! orion v silver surfer? pfft. MB creates a device to replicate what the stranger did to him! it is a mini-miracle machine after all! orion v gl? pfft. who cares how the fight went down. orion could have had MB create a device to drain the ring instantly, copying what a manhunter bot can do. juggs? pfft. i wish for MB to duplicate what the hammer did!
a hammer that was effortlessly stopped by graviton:
http://i.imgur.com/FNVmx7A.jpg
again, reversing polarity=/=canceling the gravity equation. utterly different. if orion tried to reverse....whatever he'd try reversing, what would stop graviton from simply reversing it back? 😕 what's orion gonna do exactly? reverse gravity on himself? how would that do anything? and his MB blast was a one-off shot. the disks mm made the t-bolts made them completely IMMUNE to his power, SUSTAINED that immunity and he STILL smacked them around.
tp could def win for orion, but he certainly doesn't use the MB that way very often. how often has he mindraped someone exactly? once? odds of that happening seem extremely low. and i'm not even sure the TP would work if he was actively shielding as in a battle. graviton can effect EM radiation too:
http://i.imgur.com/NCjlnWw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/sMP0dDO.jpg
lots of support says tp energy is simply EM radiation, so a case could be made he could even shield from tp if the graviton side wanted to reach as far as the orion side seems to want to.
i don't think the reverse polarity scan does anything to help the orion camp, other than to display the plot device nature of the MB. but thor's hammer is as big a plot device and graviton has dismissed thor as a child multiple times already, and if you want to keep pushing the plot device nature of the MB you better have a good reason why he can't simply plot device himself to wins in ALL his forum matches. then be sure to extend thor that same courtesy. and all gl's since their rings are as plot devicey as anything out there. /shrug
