Fireside Chat: Darth Krayt

Inspired by an hour long, informal voice chat between me, ILS, Azronger, and The_Ellimist about this character.

The purpose of this series is to analyze and discuss a specific subject thoroughly and in good faith. Power, philosophy & personality; skills and knowledge, strengths and weaknesses - it's all open. There are no sacred shaaks here.

First up, Darth Krayt.

Introduction by ILS
From humble origins, Darth Krayt clawed his way to the greatest heights of power, beginning life as a Jedi Knight of Tusken Raider descent and ending it as the Sith Emperor with the galaxy's fate in his clutches. Hellbent on punishing Palpatine and Darth Vader for destroying the Jedi Order he'd called family, Krayt walked the darkest path of all. After suffering intensely at the hands of the invading Yuuzhan Vong, a vision of a new Sith order to rule the galaxy crystalized in Krayt's mind. A century later, thanks to irredeemable evil and unrelenting will, that vision would become reality.

One of the more obscure and interesting notions surrounding Krayt pertains to his alleged influence over the Sith troopers.

This doesn't seem to be an expression of mere patriotism. "Linked through the dark side" is the key point for me. Otherwise I'd be inclined to say that they were programmed or conditioned to just be insanely loyal.

Looking at it, though, it does appear that his will drives his Sith troopers through the dark side.

So in my opinion, from the arguments and counter-arguments I have heard, I position Krayt at roughly the same level as Grand Master Luke Skywalker circa Fate of the Jedi. I think the text in Apocalypse makes it clear he wouldn't get smacked aside like a gnat by Luke based on his performance against Abeloth, so that's an extremely impressive baseline for Krayt to scale off of for his more powerful Reborn state.

He also has other absurd feats like unbalancing the Force a la Plagueis and Sidious, dominating millions of Sith troopers telepathically, and having the accolade that even in his supremely weakened Vong state, his mastery of telekinesis and lightning would vastly outstrip any Sith of his era - and if we take that to mean the entirety of the Legacy era, it would include Darish Vol, a seeming rival to Luke in Fate of the Jedi - only to grow colossaly more powerful from there.

Great idea for a thread series.

I'll just throw a tidbit out there to get things started.

This Sith Trooper throws out the figure of "millions", seeming to imply there are millions of Sith Troopers at Krayt's disposal, all willing to live and die by his will. This has a few implications, not only logistically but also because as we know, when Krayt died the final time, every Sith Trooper on Coruscant went insane on the spot and suicide bombed into the Jedi Temple and other buildings. There was clearly some kind of Force connection shared between Krayt and this army of fanatical Sith. It's been interpreted as an immense telepathic feat.

My thoughts are that there cannot, logistically, be millions of Sith Troopers. Reason being, and while there is no conclusive evidence of this, but there appears to be no more than 10,000-20,000 Sith in Krayt's empire before the Sith Troopers are unveiled. Ostrander said in an interview/Q&A which sadly can't be restored, that the Jedi had similar numbers to the PT Jedi at the start of Legacy and the Sith had even less than that, but they ambushed the Jedi at the right time to wipe them out. In addition, we know Krayt employs no more than one Sith Lord to rule over one star system each, and there are some systems that are so backwater they don't even warrant a Sith Lord to themselves, and in that case one Sith would manage an entire sector.

It begs the question, if Krayt has millions of Sith Troopers, how can he only have 10kish normal Sith? He could solve a whole lot of problems instantly if he unleashed his army. Moreover, he would spare more than one Sith per star system if he had those kinds of logistics.

As a TP feat, I don't think it's a kind of mental domination. I think Krayt raised these Troopers from infancy, established in them a fanatic devotion to his will, and formed something of a Force bond/connection to them. Similarly, characters that have run ins with Krayt like Cade and Darth Stryfe remark that they feel Krayt in their minds constantly, and his presence only leaves when he dies. So Krayt isn't exactly dominating their minds, they are indoctrinated servants, but he does have a presence in their minds and an impressive mental reach over the whole galaxy that is worthy of consideration.

Originally posted by Azronger
So in my opinion, from the arguments and counter-arguments I have heard, I position Krayt at roughly the same level as Grand Master Luke Skywalker circa Fate of the Jedi. I think the text in Apocalypse makes it clear he wouldn't get smacked aside like a gnat by Luke based on his performance against Abeloth, so that's an extremely impressive baseline for Krayt to scale off of for his more powerful Reborn state.

He also has other absurd feats like unbalancing the Force a la Plagueis and Sidious, dominating millions of Sith troopers telepathically, and having the accolade that even in his supremely weakened Vong state, his mastery of telekinesis and lightning would vastly outstrip any Sith of his era - and if we take that to mean the entirety of the Legacy era, it would include Darish Vol, a seeming rival to Luke in Fate of the Jedi - only to grow colossaly more powerful from there.

Cool stuff, Az. We can - and indeed should - dive in deeper into any particulars you want to discuss.

I'm not prepared to claim that Krayt is Luke's equal, but if we isolate the events of Apocalypse alone, I'm persuaded that they're portrayed comparably.

I'd probably also push back a bit on Darish Vol. Are we sure that Vol is of Krayt's era, when contextually that era seems to refer to the timeframe of the Legacy comics?

Before or after I respond to Gideon about Anakin tomorrow, I plan to write why I don't think Luke and Krayt show any parity.

Obviously, I expect rebuttals to that and maybe ILS/Gideon can convince me on that stance.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Great idea for a thread series.

I'll just throw a tidbit out there to get things started.

This Sith Trooper throws out the figure of "millions", seeming to imply there are millions of Sith Troopers at Krayt's disposal, all willing to live and die by his will. This has a few implications, not only logistically but also because as we know, when Krayt died the final time, every Sith Trooper on Coruscant went insane on the spot and suicide bombed into the Jedi Temple and other buildings. There was clearly some kind of Force connection shared between Krayt and this army of fanatical Sith. It's been interpreted as an immense telepathic feat.

My thoughts are that there cannot, logistically, be millions of Sith Troopers. Reason being, and while there is no conclusive evidence of this, but there appears to be no more than 10,000-20,000 Sith in Krayt's empire before the Sith Troopers are unveiled. Ostrander said in an interview/Q&A which sadly can't be restored, that the Jedi had similar numbers to the PT Jedi at the start of Legacy and the Sith had even less than that, but they ambushed the Jedi at the right time to wipe them out. In addition, we know Krayt employs no more than one Sith Lord to rule over one star system each, and there are some systems that are so backwater they don't even warrant a Sith Lord to themselves, and in that case one Sith would manage an entire sector.

It begs the question, if Krayt has millions of Sith Troopers, how can he only have 10kish normal Sith? He could solve a whole lot of problems instantly if he unleashed his army. Moreover, he would spare more than one Sith per star system if he had those kinds of logistics.

I understand your skepticism for the logistics, but to be fair, Star Wars has shit out some truly ridiculous numbers for its context (on the big and small scale): 3 million clone troops, anybody?

Given the timeframe between Krayt's death at Wyyrlok's hands and his rebirth, didn't you tell me it was about a month? That would imply that these Sith Troopers, given their advanced training and numbers, were in development a long time prior to Wyyrlok's betrayal.

Could be analogous to what Sheev was doing with the so-called Dark Empire during the time of the Galactic Empire; working behind the scenes to prepare new assets, technologies, and pawns in private to replace the current paradigm.

If that's so, it's at least more plausible that their could be such tremendous numbers of Sith troopers.

ILS
As a TP feat, I don't think it's a kind of mental domination. I think Krayt raised these Troopers from infancy, established in them a fanatic devotion to his will, and formed something of a Force bond/connection to them. Similarly, characters that have run ins with Krayt like Cade and Darth Stryfe remark that they feel Krayt in their minds constantly, and his presence only leaves when he dies. So Krayt isn't exactly dominating their minds, they are indoctrinated servants, but he does have a presence in their minds and an impressive mental reach over the whole galaxy that is worthy of consideration.

This, however, is a fair point. Perhaps it's not like he's telepathically enslaving them, but the text does indicate that his will drives the troopers as linked by the dark side. So it's not necessarily full on possession or mindhaxx, but still a potent telepathic influence.

Thanks to the Essential Reader's Companion, the Legacy era spans from 37 ABY - 140 ABY. So yeah, the Krayt >> other Sith quote includes Vol and friends.

Originally posted by Vitiate
Thanks to the Essential Reader's Companion, the Legacy era spans from 37 ABY - 140 ABY. So yeah, the Krayt >> other Sith quote includes Vol and friends.

Many novels also have this timeline that has the Legacy era starting at 37 ABY.

Originally posted by Vitiate
Thanks to the Essential Reader's Companion, the Legacy era spans from 37 ABY - 140 ABY. So yeah, the Krayt >> other Sith quote includes Vol and friends.

I'm not surprised that the OOU "era" is denoted as such, I'm just not sure that's what the text is necessarily referring to in Insider.

I mean, to be fair, Krayt was alive during Sidious's lifetime. Wouldn't the PT or OT be part of his era as well?

To clarify: an era could simply be referring to an undetermined span of time.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I'm not surprised that the OOU "era" is denoted as such, I'm just not sure that's what the text is necessarily referring to in Insider.

I mean, to be fair, Krayt was alive during Sidious's lifetime. Wouldn't the PT or OT be part of his era as well?

To clarify: an era could simply be referring to an undetermined span of time.

Well, we have two explicit quotes confirming Sidious is more powerful than Krayt, so we'd have to throw the evidence from one side out completely. If we're interested in crafting as coherent of a ranking for Krayt as possible, we should go the route with the least discrepancies, and the interpretation where all the facts can fit in without coming to conflict with each other is the one where Sidious is not curtailed by Krayt's quote.

As for the rest of your points, I think the Legacy era is the most straightforward interpretation, but I agree it is nebulous and not definitive. I'm open to agreeing to disagree if you wish.

Originally posted by Azronger
Well, we have two explicit quotes confirming Sidious is more powerful than Krayt, so we'd have to throw the evidence from one side out completely. If we're interested in crafting as coherent of a ranking for Krayt as possible, we should go the route with the least discrepancies, and the interpretation where all the facts can fit in without coming to conflict with each other is the one where Sidious is not curtailed by Krayt's quote.

Fair enough.

As for the rest of your points, I think the Legacy era is the most straightforward interpretation, but I agree it is nebulous and not definitive. I'm open to agreeing to disagree if you wish.

We can, but I'm open to persuasion on this. Looking at the text, I think "era" might be an informal designation - not reflective of the OOU time frames established by Del Rey publishing.

Additionally, you wisely say we should walk the route with the "least discrepancies." Consider this: if the Legacy "era" in this context truly includes Fate of the Jedi, that means Krayt's telekinetic and lightning skills "far outstrip" Vol's, who himself has "much the power of [Luke] Skywalker" in Abeloth's estimation.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
Fair enough.

We can, but I'm open to persuasion on this. Looking at the text, I think "era" might be an informal designation - not reflective of the OOU time frames established by Del Rey publishing.

Additionally, you wisely say we should walk the route with the "least discrepancies." Consider this: if the Legacy "era" in this context truly includes Fate of the Jedi, that means Krayt's telekinetic and lightning skills "far outstrip" Vol's, who himself has "much the power of [Luke] Skywalker" in Abeloth's estimation.

👆 Consider the "Legacy Era Sourcebook" features events after almost exclusively around the Legacy comics and doesn't include Caedus, Luke, etc.

Yeah, it's supremely likely that quote isn't including Caedus, Vol, etc.

After thinking about it: The novel Legacy "era" and the Comic Legacy "era" could be two different "eras". The description from the ERC doesn't mention the happenings from the comics.

Originally posted by Jaggarath
👆 Consider the "Legacy Era Sourcebook" features events after almost exclusively around the Legacy comics and doesn't include Caedus, Luke, etc.

Originally posted by Jaggarath

Yeah, it's supremely likely that quote isn't including Caedus, Vol, etc.

Originally posted by The_Tempest
I understand your skepticism for the logistics, but to be fair, Star Wars has shit out some truly ridiculous numbers for its context (on the big and small scale): 3 million clone troops, anybody?

Given the timeframe between Krayt's death at Wyyrlok's hands and his rebirth, didn't you tell me it was about a month? That would imply that these Sith Troopers, given their advanced training and numbers, were in development a long time prior to Wyyrlok's betrayal.

Could be analogous to what Sheev was doing with the so-called Dark Empire during the time of the Galactic Empire; working behind the scenes to prepare new assets, technologies, and pawns in private to replace the current paradigm.

If that's so, it's at least more plausible that their could be such tremendous numbers of Sith troopers.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4571578-krayt+sts.png
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4571579-krayt+sts2.png

It was decades in the making and you rightly point out that it's a contingency plan; Sith by their very nature seek power and are willing to backstab for it. He needed an unquestionably loyal army.

That said? Unless something else other than just the Sith Troopers word corroborates this, I find it too hard to believe his figure is plausible. There's too many holes. I.e he's handpicking them from birth based on their Force sensitivity, meaning that these are the exceptional beings he picked, and the averages were left out, so if he has 2 million chosen troopers, there's 4 million he reviewed and left out. He kept this a secret from even his closest confidante in Wyyrlok, so his resources for the project are entirely his own, he has no aid from his Sith Empire.

There's the fact that if his secret army is in the millions, his conventional, weaker army must also be in the millions, meaning Krayt built an empire of millions of Sith in about 100 years in secret on Korriban from nothing. Also in the sequel Legacy comic series, the remnants of the Sith Empire seemed to congregate on one planet in the numbers of hundreds, which is far too small if previously we were discussing millions.

Originally posted by Jaggarath

Yeah, it's supremely likely that quote isn't including Caedus, Vol, etc.

Nice. 👆

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Both very astute points. I didn't actually clock until now that the Legacy "Era" sourcebook has a separate definition for that era from the conventional eras described in cover flaps of comics and novels. Although it's what is says on the tin lol.

👆

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Krayt was working on this for a very long time.

https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4571578-krayt+sts.png
https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111114474/4571579-krayt+sts2.png

It was decades in the making and you rightly point out that it's a contingency plan; Sith by their very nature seek power and are willing to backstab for it. He needed an unquestionably loyal army.

That said? Unless something else other than just the Sith Troopers word corroborates this, I find it too hard to believe his figure is plausible. There's too many holes. I.e he's handpicking them from birth based on their Force sensitivity, meaning that these are the exceptional beings he picked, and the averages were left out, so if he has 2 million chosen troopers, there's 4 million he reviewed and left out. He kept this a secret from even his closest confidante in Wyyrlok, so his resources for the project are entirely his own, he has no aid from his Sith Empire.

There's the fact that if his secret army is in the millions, his conventional, weaker army must also be in the millions, meaning Krayt built an empire of millions of Sith in about 100 years in secret on Korriban from nothing. Also in the sequel Legacy comic series, the remnants of the Sith Empire seemed to congregate on one planet in the numbers of hundreds, which is far too small if previously we were discussing millions.

Eh, I'm not so sure.

The fact that Krayt kept this secret from Wyyrlok doesn't mean that this project was done without extant Imperial/Sith resources. Considering the scope of Krayt's machinations and the scope of his empire, it's entirely possible to divert tremendous resources to clandestine projects. Sheev did it all the time throughout the Republic and the Empire.

Additionally, it's important to reaffirm that the logistical silliness of millions of Sith troopers isn't an unprecedented aspect of Star Wars lore, which often throws around absurdly low infantry numbers, etc.

If Krayt began this program decades ago, culling strong Force-sensitives shortly after birth with a galaxy at his disposal, this isn't out of the question even if it seems exceptionally unlikely.

Out of curiosity, do you think the Sith trooper is lying or exaggerating?

Originally posted by The_Tempest
👆

Eh, I'm not so sure.

The fact that Krayt kept this secret from Wyyrlok doesn't mean that this project was done without extant Imperial/Sith resources. Considering the scope of Krayt's machinations and the scope of his empire, it's entirely possible to divert tremendous resources to clandestine projects. Sheev did it all the time throughout the Republic and the Empire.

Additionally, it's important to reaffirm that the logistical silliness of millions of Sith troopers isn't an unprecedented aspect of Star Wars lore, which often throws around absurdly low infantry numbers, etc.

If Krayt began this program decades ago, culling strong Force-sensitives shortly after birth with a galaxy at his disposal, this isn't out of the question even if it seems exceptionally unlikely.

Out of curiosity, do you think the Sith trooper is lying or exaggerating?

I don't think the Trooper is lying. For exaggerating, I have a theory. Imagine from birth your entire life revolved around the fanatic devotion and worship of one man. A man who chose you by hand, is in your mind constantly, who you are an extension of the will of. The "One Sith" is one cohesive unit which is at the behest, under the uncontested rule of one supreme leader.

If that was all I knew about the world, I might assume that that is the same for everyone else who lives under Krayt's empire, and so he may genuinely believe millions of people, Sith and Imperials alike, all share a will with Krayt. In a sense he might be correct, that Krayt's will marshals his proxy armies of Imperials, soldiers, spies, politicians and Sith, in both direct and indirect senses.