Fireside Chat: Darth Krayt

Originally posted by The Ellimist

1. Neither Bilbo nor Frodo could use the ring properly
2. The ring doesn't have Sauron's full power

Granted, these two points might also apply here, but it's a matter of degree. In the case of LotR it's probably something like:

Sauron (sans ring): 30
The One Ring: 70
Full Power Sauron: 100
The One Ring (that Frodo can harness): 7
Frodo: 1

I think we're on the same page for the most part, then. So, going off of the two points you brought up, the pertinent questions are, "can Frodo Celeste use the ring talisman as well as Muur" and "does the ring talisman have all of Sauron's Muur's power?"

Exactly how much power was vested in the talisman is for all intents and purposes unknowable, so I won't comment on it. I don't find it to be particularly relevant to the question of who is stronger between Celeste-Muur and Muur, besides (as both were in possession of the talisman). With regards to whether or not Celeste could make full use of the talisman's power, you're right to say that we can't really know that for sure either, since the talisman has never been in anyone else's possession on-screen for any significant amount of time. What we do know, however, is that (spirit) Muur cannot use the force by himself; he requires a living, force-sensitive host to do so. Furthermore, it stands to reason that the breadth of his powers will increase as his host becomes more powerful, which is one reason why he seeks superior partners like Krayt and Vader.

So, with that in mind, which do you think was the better vessel for the talisman's power? A, the body of Muur, the man himself, and one of the most prominent Sith Lords of his day? Or B, the body of Celeste, who was just one of the dozens of Jedi agents working under Lucien Draay, and who actively resisted the talisman's influence? I, myself, have my doubts about option B. That's not to say that it's impossible; on the contrary, it's fairly widely believed that Exar Kun was stronger when channeling his powers through Kyp than he was in life, but that's because Kyp himself was exceptionally powerful. I haven't seen anything that makes me think the same is true of Celeste.

Nothing you said addresses what was discussed on page 4 and 5, Newguy.

So, with that in mind, which do you think was the better vessel for the talisman's power? A, the body of Muur, the man himself, and one of the most prominent Sith Lords of his day? Or B, the body of Celeste, who was just one of the dozens of Jedi agents working under Lucien Draay, and who actively resisted the talisman's influence?

Muurne is Muur's Essence + Morne's Essence in her body. Clearly, then, their spirits combined would be channelling more power than just one essence alone through that body. We know from the evidence posted prior that if too much power is channelled through a weak host, the host body will be injured. Morne never had this problem.

Therefore meaning that she can handle both her own power and Muur's with some to spare before she suffers any physical side effects; that isn't her upper limit.

Your point may have been valid if we were just comparing Muur vs Morne... but we're not. We're comparing Muur by himself vs Muur combining his power with a new host. It seems fairly obvious the latter is more powerful than the former.

Furthermore, it stands to reason that the breadth of his powers will increase as his host becomes more powerful, which is one reason why he seeks superior partners like Krayt and Vader.

So, with that in mind, which do you think was the better vessel for the talisman's power? A, the body of Muur, the man himself, and one of the most prominent Sith Lords of his day? Or B, the body of Celeste, who was just one of the dozens of Jedi agents working under Lucien Draay, and who actively resisted the talisman's influence?

Also? We're not exactly talking about Morne when she's outright resisting Muur's power... we're talking about her when she fully accepted it, at the end of Vector. And it's not that the breadth of "his powers" become more powerful... it just means that he is attached to a more powerful host. A more powerful host can get more done in the long run.

Morne, clearly, is a "suitable vessel" who can channel his full power, and there is no evidence to suggest otherwise. Her latent potential could have been far higher than her initial reputation let on.

Like previously mentioned, Morne did give a little scuffle to Vader by herself before Vader stomped her. She was obviously a capable Jedi on her own.

Also Newguy seems to be under the impression that the talisman on its own was an additional amp for Muur, when the only uses for it in life were to pick up the user if he dropped, make Rakghouls, and help create and control leviathans (as we saw Dreypa do). It was not stated to be an amp for Muur. Only when Muur was in it did it become so.

So it's not a comparison of Muur with the amulet vs a force user with the amulet. It's not a simple host vs host with the amulet. It's a comparison of Muur's power while living to a force user empowered by Muur's entire essence in an amulet. It's quite a difference than what Newguy is saying.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Nothing in the Sith Artifacts section of the Jedi Academy Training Manual nor the specific section on Muur's talisman makes any mention of the utility of said artifacts in the pursuit of galactic domination, but it does talk extensively about personal power and the amplification of abilities like telekinesis. The whole section serves as a reference guide for roleplayers seeking to build their own character.

So no, on a personal combat level, not a galactic one, Muur's ability to spread and control rakghouls is more important than the power he himself possesses and can afford to the wearer of the talisman. Even his full power.

Also a very highly important post.

"More important than a user being controlled and empowered by an above Vader/Krayt being is the Rakghoul Plague."

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Nothing you said addresses what was discussed on page 4 and 5, Newguy.

That makes sense. I wasn't addressing anyone but Ellimist. A lot of the arguments being passed around in this thread seem to be based on certain assumptions that I wasn't interested in entangling with. But this one time I'll bite, just for you, if only to clarify what I'm getting at.

The power of Muur's essence would be approximate to how powerful he was in his body in ancient times.

I'm curious as to what you're basing this on, because that's about as far as you can get from what is typically true for Sith Spirits. To begin with, the basis for any individual's strength in the force is their biology; it's precisely because disembodied spirits lack midichlorians (and therefore a direct connection to the living force) that they always require some external source of force energy to survive and act.

For example, Exar Kun and Marka Ragnos both bound themselves to the latent dark side energies in their temples and shrines to maintain their will, and they channeled those energies through Kyp and Tavion respectively to perform feats of magic. The spirits themselves don't have inherent power; it's because that's their nature that cases like Sidious, who could persist for months independent of an anchor, are so abnormal and impressive. I propose that Karness Muur's case is most consistent with Exar's and Marka's; he bound himself to the latent dark side energies of his amulet to maintain his will, and he channels those energies through the amulet's bearer in order to perform feats of magic.

In other words, our disagreement here is on the fundamentals, which is why I didn't bother addressing it earlier. Your argument is predicated on the theory that the Muur Talisman is fueled by the power of Karness Muur's spirit, whereas my argument is predicated on the theory that Karness Muur's spirit is fueled by the power of the Muur Talisman. Under my line of reasoning--supposing that I haven't gotten it wrong somewhere--the power of the Muur Talisman itself would not have changed between when Muur used it and when Celeste used it, making a comparison between Muur and Celeste-Muur a direct comparison between Celeste's and Muur's respective Force sensitivities. As for whatever you were saying about channeling twin spirits or something, I have no answer to that; it isn't compatible with my conception of how the Force works whatsoever.

Her latent potential could have been far higher than her initial reputation let on.

As for this, I do believe I made a point of mentioning that Celeste's latent potential being greater than Muur's wasn't impossible. That being said, there's a difference between a claim being plausible and a claim being convincing. In any case, I'm not trying to say that Muur's strength in the Force is much greater than Celeste's on the basis of their respective reputations, but rather that I find the reverse to be unlikely.

this is the most words i've ever seen newguy post

Believe it or not, my tendency is to be fairly wordy when I'm talking about something I find even mildly interesting.

yeah keep mansplaining like everyone needs to stop and listen to your white male babble 🙄

Originally posted by One Big Mob
It doesn't make sense that the force empowered host would add power to Muur's full power when he takes over?

So if Muur took completely over, there wouldn't be a vast difference in power if he used Plo Koon as a host, compared to Darth Vader?

There was no indication that it would allow him to use more of his own power. In fact, everytime he took over it was pretty much stated that he was afforded all his own power.
He wanted Vader because of his power, and because Celeste was powerful enough on her own to hold him back for so long.

Muur Talisman make it possible for Muur's spirit to possess a host and use the host's body to manifest his powers afterwards. Celeste Morne, being a well-trained Jedi, is able to hold Muur's spirit at bay with her willpower but she allowed Muur to manifest his powers through her body in her fight with Darth Krayt. Not sure if this was the case of augmentation or temporary possession. I am assuming the latter but I am willing to see arguments to the contrary.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I'm curious as to what you're basing this on, because that's about as far as you can get from what is typically true for Sith Spirits. To begin with, the basis for any individual's strength in the force is their biology; it's precisely because disembodied spirits lack midichlorians (and therefore a direct connection to the living force) that they always require some external source of force energy to survive and act.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
it's because that's their nature that cases like Sidious, who could persist for months independent of an anchor, are so abnormal and impressive.

Originally posted by NewGuy01

The spirits themselves don't have inherent power;

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I propose that Karness Muur's case is most consistent with Exar's and Marka's; he bound himself to the latent dark side energies of his amulet to maintain his will, and he channels those energies through the amulet's bearer in order to perform feats of magic.

Originally posted by NewGuy01 In other words, our disagreement here is on the fundamentals, which is why I didn't bother addressing it earlier. Your argument is predicated on the theory that the Muur Talisman is fueled by the power of Karness Muur's spirit, whereas my argument is predicated on the theory that Karness Muur's spirit is fueled by the power of the Muur Talisman.[/B]

Originally posted by NewGuy01 Under my line of reasoning--supposing that I haven't gotten it wrong somewhere--the power of the Muur Talisman itself would not have changed between when Muur used it and when Celeste used it, making a comparison between Muur and Celeste-Muur a direct comparison between Celeste's and Muur's respective Force sensitivities. As for whatever you were saying about channeling twin spirits or something, I have no answer to that; it isn't compatible with my conception of how the Force works whatsoever.[/B]

Originally posted by NewGuy01 As for this, I do believe I made a point of mentioning that Celeste's latent potential being greater than Muur's wasn't impossible. That being said, there's a difference between a claim being plausible and a claim being convincing. In any case, I'm not trying to say that Muur's strength in the Force is much greater than Celeste's on the basis of their respective reputations, but rather that I find the reverse to be unlikely. [/B]

I wonder if NewGuy remembers when he and I discussed Anakin vs. Dooku 5 years ago in the chatbox on his own forum that he had made after being exiled from SWF he good times

'course I do. I wasn't exiled from SWF at that point, though.

The memories man

Originally posted by NewGuy01
'course I do. I wasn't exiled from SWF at that point, though.

Are we ever gonna play Borderlands again

Only if you ****ers do a BL2 playthrough

Preferably on Xbox one 🙂

Preferably on PC you mean

shouldn't these fireside chats have safe spaces for womyn and marginalized minorities?

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Preferably on PC you mean

PS4 crew where ya at

PS4 ftw