Originally posted by RealistRacismI'm not aware of when I said I had to be 100% sure of anything. You and others appear to be believe that it's pretty close to 100% true that Muur in the flesh > Vector!Morne, yet, evidence seems to suggest otherwise. You are welcome to make your case in favour of Karness Muur.
Stop making it out like we have to be 100% sure on this, otherwise it's invalid. Every accolade and showing Muur has, puts him well above Celeste.
Originally posted by BestDebaterEverTo add to this, Celeste was able to draw on the talisman to prolong her own life, in addition to drawing on additional power before Muur takes over.
Wait, so Valk tearing the Outlander's body apart isn't an important piece of evidence when considering how much more powerful he is, but his feats (which Mob rightly points out Muur is in dire need of sans amulet hopping) are the important bit? Interesting.Again, I at no point said Celeste Morne amped by Muur is definitely more powerful than Muur back in the day. I'm quite sure I went out of my way to qualify my posts that way. You are saying the same thing I have already said back to me, just in defence of Muur rather than Morne.
After reviewing the evidence and Mob's contribution, I'm more inclined to think Celemuur is more powerful, due to the fact she suffered no ill physical effects from channelling the unbridled power of his essence as well as her own.
I recall someone bringing up Ragnos earlier? Let's review the state his power left Tavion's body in:
Interesting. Tavion's power skyrocketed with Ragnos' intervention and then her body was reduced to ashes once he left, because it couldn't handle his power, even "briefly".
Again, we see nothing even slightly alluding to this with Celeste Morne. Are we to assume it's just too ambiguous whether or not Muur is "far more powerful" than her or not, or can we safely assume that their power combined in a (clearly) worthy vessel is in excess of Muur's own power?
It was all positives for her minus fighting to control Muur's influence. It took no toll on her body and even made her more powerful on her own.
I will be rereading the appearances though since it's been a while. I have a nagging feeling that I'm forgetting something important.
Originally posted by One Big MobI think what we can take from this is that Karness Muur in his prime was a sub-rookie suited Vader level opponent who's ability to summon rakghouls was disproportionately more powerful than any other combat abilities he had. And that even when combining his power with that of a willing, powerful host, he was at-best able to momentarily stalemate Krayt on his absolute worst day before being given a chance to cheapshot him.
To add to this, Celeste was able to draw on the talisman to prolong her own life, in addition to drawing on additional power before Muur takes over.
Plus you know, the fact that she turned to dust once the talisman was no longer amping her lifespan.It was all positives for her minus fighting to control Muur's influence. It took no toll on her body and even made her more powerful on her own.
I will be rereading the appearances though since it's been a while. I have a nagging feeling that I'm forgetting something important.
Originally posted by BestDebaterEverThe full power of Muur's spirit encapsulated into a Force sensitive amulet that aids in the focusing of power, is not as important as it's ability to spread and control the rakghoul virus.
xD RIP bois
Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
According to that logic, in fact, Morne would be such a worthy vessel that her power combined with Muur's still isn't enough to fully stretch out her limits, verifiably proving that Krayt was stalemating a Karness Muur+ character in the most horrendous condition any character (relatively speaking) has been in compared to their true power.Again, according to the logic given by that example.
Yeah, this has convinced me. Cele-Muur is more powerful than ancient Muur
Originally posted by HaschwalthNothing in the Sith Artifacts section of the Jedi Academy Training Manual nor the specific section on Muur's talisman makes any mention of the utility of said artifacts in the pursuit of galactic domination, but it does talk extensively about personal power and the amplification of abilities like telekinesis. The whole section serves as a reference guide for roleplayers seeking to build their own character.
Yeah, when you can dominate the galaxy via Rakghouls, it obviously becomes more important. In combat, not really.
So no, on a personal combat level, not a galactic one, Muur's ability to spread and control rakghouls is more important than the power he himself possesses and can afford to the wearer of the talisman. Even his full power.
Well, let's look at hosts here.
He literally calls Celeste a suitable host, which indicates her raw power was enough to be free. He did not know her will at the time:
https://i.imgur.com/evlM6Ql.jpg
He says another will come along STRONG in the force like Celeste:
https://i.imgur.com/y1mb3Tq.jpg
So that right there ruins the red herrings people presented. Let's delve deeper into all Muur needs of a host
Zayne Carrick:
https://i.imgur.com/GwEHlDF.jpg
Luke Skywalker would let him accomplish his goals, and later Leia would do the same as his vision, even though she's not as advanced as him:
https://i.imgur.com/XRyCix3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/T6NjxlV.jpg
Darth Vader, keep in mind he makes note of Vader's power, which would make no sense to be a benefit to him considering Zayne was a good enough host unless it adds to Muur's power:
https://i.imgur.com/kTvzUGv.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/K7byKLr.jpg
Shado Voa:
https://i.imgur.com/vJoYCA9.jpg
Azlyn Rae:
https://i.imgur.com/y5Ot4hq.jpg
Draco is not:
https://i.imgur.com/sqqDBIF.jpg
Simply being in Cade's possession he already declared himself free:
https://i.imgur.com/S3gZ4nI.jpg
"Use the power of an ancient Sith Lord..."
https://i.imgur.com/Eyxs7Xz.jpg
Vader sensing the power, and using the power thinks he might defeat Sheev. Again, unless people want to argue that Muur is above Sheev, this is clearly adding his power to Vader's is enough to let Vader think he can win.
https://i.imgur.com/xr692l1.jpg
The only reason Celeste was bad was because she was too strong willed for Muur. Which is common sense really. As we noticed. Her raw power was stated to be enough for Muur.
https://i.imgur.com/Kg3UI1P.jpg
Proclaims he has slain Lords more powerful than Krayt. Why would he say this if he were nowhere near his original power? I'm not going to post the large sith lightning storms however. But Muur himself went along with their plan and everytime his red bubbling spoke, that was him.
https://i.imgur.com/8IaBLgS.jpg
Cade doesn't want the POWER the talisman can give him:
https://i.imgur.com/uAjPRkr.jpg
Also this:
Do I need to dig deeper or something? Nobody has given any reason why he'd be weaker than normal. In fact, I couldn't find an implication that his power wanes at all. I already posted other scans as well saying his power is theirs, and theirs his. Or of Celeste drawing on his power in combat against Krayt (and getting outmatched but I don't feel I need to show that). Etc.
Muur pooled his power with Celeste. Celeste was only stopping him from gaining control, not hindering him while he had control. Even claiming he was weaker as a spirit has no proof. The implications are that he was at full power when in control.
Originally posted by One Big MobWow, if the hatchet was already buried in the chest you just put a hole through the back. Very good observations. I especially like the point that Muur+Vader combined being capable of defeating Sidious is a clear example of double think, unless the Muur crowd believe suited Vader has the latent power to surpass Sidious were it only unlocked by Muur... you know Muur who per the same crowd's logic scales nowhere near Sidious to begin with...
Vader sensing the power, and using the power thinks he might defeat Sheev. Again, unless people want to argue that Muur is above Sheev, this is clearly adding his power to Vader's is enough to let Vader think he can win.
https://i.imgur.com/xr692l1.jpgThe only reason Celeste was bad was because she was too strong willed for Muur. Which is common sense really. As we noticed. Her raw power was stated to be enough for Muur.
https://i.imgur.com/Kg3UI1P.jpgProclaims he has slain Lords more powerful than Krayt. Why would he say this if he were nowhere near his original power? I'm not going to post the large sith lightning storms however. But Muur himself went along with their plan and everytime his red bubbling spoke, that was him.
https://i.imgur.com/8IaBLgS.jpgCade doesn't want the POWER the talisman can give him:
https://i.imgur.com/uAjPRkr.jpgAlso this:
Do I need to dig deeper or something? Nobody has given any reason why he'd be weaker than normal. In fact, I couldn't find an implication that his power wanes at all. I already posted other scans as well saying his power is theirs, and theirs his. Or of Celeste drawing on his power in combat against Krayt (and getting outmatched but I don't feel I need to show that). Etc.
Muur pooled his power with Celeste. Celeste was only stopping him from gaining control, not hindering him while he had control. Even claiming he was weaker as a spirit has no proof. The implications are that he was at full power when in control.
...and were that the case anyway it would mean Krayt on his worst day in over 110 years still stalemated a century-more experienced Karness Muur/Morne combo.
Fun thought experiment, but no, Muur's full power is basically just a sentient trinket that comes attached with some haxx powers.
Yeah, I think when you've been eaten alive to the muscle and bone for 113 years by an organism that 1. is used in the building for the hulls of organic spaceships 2. can turn a normal person into a semi-sentient vong-zombie in moments and 3. burrow themselves into the deepest parts of their victims body, constantly expanding their domain, analogous to Bane's orbalisks (without any of the benefits and worse side effects)... and you have expended large amounts of energy (where lesser exertions of energy drove you to exhaustion prior)... then yeah I think stalemating a being whose power is in excess of the Dark Jedi Exiles before surviving a lightning blast and 100 foot plummet... is pretty high up on the badass Sith totem pole.
👆
Krayt is pretty powerful, even in his "low feats".
Originally posted by BestDebaterEverA lot of hyperbole tbh. Same with him slaying lords more powerful than Krayt... like who?
Wow, if the hatchet was already buried in the chest you just put a hole through the back. Very good observations. I especially like the point that Muur+Vader combined being capable of defeating Sidious is a clear example of double think, unless the Muur crowd believe suited Vader has the latent power to surpass Sidious were it only unlocked by Muur... you know Muur who per the same crowd's logic scales nowhere near Sidious to begin with......and were that the case anyway it would mean Krayt on his worst day in over 110 years still stalemated a century-more experienced Karness Muur/Morne combo.
Fun thought experiment, but no, Muur's full power is basically just a sentient trinket that comes attached with some haxx powers.
But yeah, I think it's fair to say Muur + Morne > OG Muur. How much is the real question.
Enough that where previously a suitably powerful essence would injure (at times severely) the host with excessive power use, looking at Marka and Valkorion, in this case, Muur and Morne's full unbridled power didn't appear to knock on the door of any limits. So you can safely argue there was no capping of Muur's power, no corrosive effect to using it and so on, so that is effectively a power stack.
Now, something I thought about is the fact that Muur's essence could have been slowly but surely siphoned of strength over the years, in order to extend Morne's lifespan. That would imply that exertion of energy, injury and the passage of time can cause the spirit to corrode in much the same way a body might. You might also argue that the more powerful the spirit in question, the more energy that can be siphoned. Consuming or forfeiting the life energy of others in order to bolster your own is common practice among the ancient Sith, e.g Exar Kun, Darth Nox, Vitiate.
I wonder who agrees with that basic premise about spirits?
Good point. 👆
Originally posted by BestDebaterEverThe only things I've seen on that about Muur, was that he couldn't keep Celeste alive for another 40 centuries.
Now, something I thought about is the fact that Muur's essence could have been slowly but surely siphoned of strength over the years, in order to extend Morne's lifespan. That would imply that exertion of energy, injury and the passage of time can cause the spirit to corrode in much the same way a body might. You might also argue that the more powerful the spirit in question, the more energy that can be siphoned. Consuming or forfeiting the life energy of others in order to bolster your own is common practice among the ancient Sith, e.g Exar Kun, Darth Nox, Vitiate.I wonder who agrees with that basic premise about spirits?
There's also this which seems to hint at two possible extensions to his power:
https://i.imgur.com/HnJsJpM.jpg
The first is being sustained by Celeste. Celeste draws on the dark side to prolong her life while Muur is sustained by her. Some sort of loop effect could be possible.
The second is him and Dreypa battling unceasingly. Which implies the talisman has figured out spirit erosion.
I think his power was just attributed to her living for 150 plus years and not the 4000 years in the Dreypa oubliette (since it was claimed he Zayne could stay there until the stars went out). Which isn't too bad to keep someone alive in Star Wars.
