Fireside Chat: Darth Krayt

Originally posted by The Ellimist
It's not the same as Muur just outright possessing a body because Celeste IIRC is still an active agent, so we have Muur + Celeste + Talisman, assuming Muur has his own power separate from said talisman.

The fact that Celeste has her own will makes Celeste-Muur weaker, not stronger. Since when has internal conflict ever made a Force user stronger?

As for your arithmetic there, if we were to apply the same logic to another fairly analogous scenario, we'd also have to conclude that Bilbo and Frodo were stronger than Sauron in his glory days, no?

Here’s the issue: we see through examples like Spirit Valkorion in KOTFE that even channeling one’s spiritual energies through a powerful host, or said host drawing on the power of the spirit, isn’t necessarily nearly as potent as the spirit channeling their power through their original host. The situation with Valkorion and Outlander seems extremely similar as with Muur and Celeste: Outlander knows he can’t defeat Arcann on his own, and so willingly allows Valk to take control. Despite KOTFE Arcann being able to hold off Valklander’s barrage for almost a minute, the Outlander was hospitalized for days and nearly died from channeling such power. So even though the Outlander actively allowed and consented for Valkorion to take full control of his body, Valkorion still could not unleash anything close to the power he wielded in his own physical body, and even that power almost killed the Outlander.

So ultimately, I guess it depends on whether Celeste’s body is capable of channeling the full power of Muur’s spirit.

Which is still doubtful.

This could honestly have some implications for Exar Kun as well. Should do a fireside chat about him.

The key things that hasn't been mentioned in combination yet are:

1. Celeste was able to freely draw power from Muur in addition to her own. The only "conflict" was that she chose not to do this earlier in the fight.

2. Muur did not "take over" at the end; they joined their powers in perfect unison, as is indicated by the merging dialogue.

https://i.imgur.com/2kDwXSK.jpg

This is made abundantly clear by the fact immediately after the fight, Morne is in perfect control of herself. She allowed Muur a degree of control so that they could increase their combined power.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/6JkcnYf1eSRQr3GwYaPRvzzQXoQEGC89NZDLusXPONNh3YC_J-QVqueO_3l4XlUO16s0ExjsvAg=s0

The ideas that:

1. Morne is hindered by Muur's presence, when she draw on his power freely.

and

2. Morne and Muur are capped at the "host's level", and did not combine their powers.

...is unsupported by the comic.

If someone wants to argue that:

Karness Muur body and spirit > Celeste Morne body and spirit + Muur's spirit.

You can go ahead and do that, but until you actually prove that as a rule, I am not inclined to agree that, as a rule, Muur was more powerful in ancient times than he was at the apex of the battle in Vector.

You copy pasted that whole thing from somewhere

No, I just typed it...

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
This could honestly have some implications for Exar Kun as well. Should do a fireside chat about him.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Here’s the issue: we see through examples like Spirit Valkorion in KOTFE that even channeling one’s spiritual energies through a powerful host, or said host drawing on the power of the spirit, isn’t necessarily nearly as potent as the spirit channeling their power through their original host. The situation with Valkorion and Outlander seems extremely similar as with Muur and Celeste: Outlander knows he can’t defeat Arcann on his own, and so willingly allows Valk to take control. Despite KOTFE Arcann being able to hold off Valklander’s barrage for almost a minute, the Outlander was hospitalized for days and nearly died from channeling such power. So even though the Outlander actively allowed and consented for Valkorion to take full control of his body, Valkorion still could not unleash anything close to the power he wielded in his own physical body, and even that power almost killed the Outlander.

So ultimately, I guess it depends on whether Celeste’s body is capable of channeling the full power of Muur’s spirit.

But BDE, that’s still no different from what Valkorion did with Outlander in KOTFE Chapter 8. Arcann utterly overpowers the Outlander, so Valk freezes time and says

My son is too strong. You need my power. only together can we strike him down!

In an almost exact replica of the Celeste situation, Outlander allows Valk to take over, Valk shoots his crazy lightning, and the Outlander re-asserts complete control after the fact.

Celeste “merging” her power with Muur =/= Muur’s full power in his original host (its unproven which is stronger or weaker either way).

Celeste “merging” her power with Muur =/= Muur’s full power in his original host (its unproven which is stronger or weaker either way).

You're correct that the situations are similar because it involves a spirit amping someone... other than that there is nothing but differences.

If one is planning on scaling Kun based on Muur, I would offer the advice to take care in considering:

-What actually happened in the fight
-The... less than stellar condition Krayt was in at the time
-The apparently ambiguous relationship between Celemuur and ancient!Muur

Morne's latent potential seems pretty high, considering her depiction anyway. I recall her kicking the shit out of rakghouls at the beginning of KOTOR and then fresh out of a 4 thousand year coma she was giving early Vader some shit. Muur tapping into her latent potential and additionally amping it with his own power is hardly something to scoff at.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
I'm pretty sure most Force users, as a standard practice, cannot normally channel so much Force power that their flesh begins to disintegrate or they injure themselves. So what you are indicating is that an additional spirit can enhance the capabilities of the host beyond what they are normally capable of. Your example is a bit extreme because the Outlander's actualised power is a drop in the ocean compared to Valkorion, but you would be hard pressed to prove the same is the case with Muur and Morne.

I’m not swinging for one side of the other: just that it’s entirely possible for Muur to be more powerful, even far more powerful in his original body than when merging with Celeste.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Precisely my point, it's not a given that Muur is better the same way it's a given Valk is superior to Valk+Outlander.

You're correct that the situations are similar because it involves a spirit amping someone... other than that there is nothing but differences.

If one is planning on scaling Kun based on Muur, I would offer the advice to take care in considering:

-What actually happened in the fight
-The... less than stellar condition Krayt was in at the time
-The apparently ambiguous relationship between Celemuur and ancient!Muur

I was more referring to Kun’s spirit shenanigans in JA.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I’m not swinging for one side of the other: just that it’s entirely possible for Muur to be more powerful, even far more powerful in his original body than when merging with Celeste.

We can observe that Morne has never at any point suffered any negative ramifications from drawing on Muur, even at the end of Legacy. So even with the power of two potent spirits channelling their full power through her body, she still had room to spare before her body would begin to suffer for it.

My question to you is, does this in any way suggest Muur's worlds apart from Morne in a midichlorian-midichlorian comparison, let alone her state in Vector?

According to that logic, in fact, Morne would be such a worthy vessel that her power combined with Muur's still isn't enough to fully stretch out her limits, verifiably proving that Krayt was stalemating a Karness Muur+ character in the most horrendous condition any character (relatively speaking) has been in compared to their true power.

Again, according to the logic given by that example.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
The fact that Celeste has her own will makes Celeste-Muur weaker, not stronger. Since when has internal conflict ever made a Force user stronger?

Where's the evidence they were fighting each other during the relevant feats (IDK enough myself)?

It's certainly not unprecedented for two users together to be more powerful than just one.

As for your arithmetic there, if we were to apply the same logic to another fairly analogous scenario, we'd also have to conclude that Bilbo and Frodo were stronger than Sauron in his glory days, no?

No, because:

1. Neither Bilbo nor Frodo could use the ring properly
2. The ring doesn't have Sauron's full power

Granted, these two points might also apply here, but it's a matter of degree. In the case of LotR it's probably something like:

Sauron (sans ring): 30
The One Ring: 70
Full Power Sauron: 100
The One Ring (that Frodo can harness): 7
Frodo: 1

But we don't know what the scale is for Muur, or at least I haven't read it carefully enough.

Is anyone actually going to tackle the actual facts that surround Muur or him never even alluding to himself having less power, or telling people that he's going to use their power as his own (and his power is theres)?

All I see is diversion tactics used in different situations under different contexts. "Ragnos, Valk, Exar, and Bilbo and Frodo > Sauron?"

A stark difference is those beings have feats on their own outside the possession. Muur transferred his entire essence into a trinket that the entire purpose is to take over someone's body who is strong in the force so he can also use their powers.
Celeste was only a faulty host because she refused to let Muur take over, not because she weakened his ability to use his power (when he did). Her power wasn't in question. Not to mention all Muur's best feats come from her being the host which is what people use to say Muur on his own is above Vader and Krayt. 😂

That's a good little no limits fallacy on its own right there. Celeste is holding back Muur tremendously, but all of Muur's best feats come from her and the only indication that the duo is weaker than Muur on his own is Valkorion. Naturally Muur scales impossibly above that level (cue Ajunta Pall nonesense).

I wonder what the reasoning for people taking Vader's vision as absolute fact is? Vader's body allows Muur the full range of his abilities and his full power is above Sheev? 😂

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Well let's examine the example you used: Valkorion channelled so much power through the host body that the Outlander was hospitalised afterwards, proving Valk in his own body is "far more powerful".

We can observe that Morne has never at any point suffered any negative ramifications from drawing on Muur, even at the end of Legacy. So even with the power of two potent spirits channelling their full power through her body, she still had room to spare before her body would begin to suffer for it.

My question to you is, does this in any way suggest Muur's worlds apart from Morne in a midichlorian-midichlorian comparison, let alone her state in Vector?

I think you may have missed my point, here. The proof that Valk in his own body is vastly more powerful isn’t through the fact that the Outlander was hospitalized. It’s through his actual feats and showings against a more powerful Arcann and people way more powerful than him.

My point in bringing up Outlander is that even when a spirit merges with the host body to the extent that the host body will be torn apart from the energy, it still doesn’t necessarily mean that said host w/the spirit is as or more powerful than the spirit in its original host body. We do not know whether or not that is the case with Muur and Celeste.

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
I think you may have missed my point, here. The proof that Valk in his own body is vastly more powerful isn’t through the fact that the Outlander was hospitalized. It’s through his actual feats and showings against a more powerful Arcann and people way more powerful than him.

My point in bringing up Outlander is that even when a spirit merges with the host body to the extent that the host body will be torn apart from the energy, it still doesn’t necessarily mean that said host w/the spirit is as or more powerful than the spirit in its original host body. We do not know whether or not that is the case with Muur and Celeste.

Again, I at no point said Celeste Morne amped by Muur is definitely more powerful than Muur back in the day. I'm quite sure I went out of my way to qualify my posts that way. You are saying the same thing I have already said back to me, just in defence of Muur rather than Morne.

After reviewing the evidence and Mob's contribution, I'm more inclined to think Celemuur is more powerful, due to the fact she suffered no ill physical effects from channelling the unbridled power of his essence as well as her own.

I recall someone bringing up Ragnos earlier? Let's review the state his power left Tavion's body in:

Jedi student Jaden Korr confronted Axmis on Korriban, where she had used an ancient Sith artifact to reawaken the spirit of Marka Ragnos. Briefly possessed by Ragnos, Axmis wielded incredible power, yet she was still defeated by Korr.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

“Dead. Ragnos had possessed her. Her body couldn’t withstand the corruption. When I destroyed the scepter and Ragnos left her body, there was nothing left.”

Source: Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy

Again, we see nothing even slightly alluding to this with Celeste Morne. Are we to assume it's just too ambiguous whether or not Muur is "far more powerful" than her or not, or can we safely assume that their power combined in a (clearly) worthy vessel is in excess of Muur's own power?