Fireside Chat: Darth Krayt

Something interesting occurred to me while thinking about Dark Transfer. So if I remember correctly, Dark Transfer is simply pouring Force energy into the cracks one sees in shatterpoints, as in the ability requires shatterpoint as a prerequisite. Correct?

So, if we observe the most prominent user of the shatterpoint ability in the mythos, Mace Windu, his use of the ability transcends the physical to the point where he is able to perceive metaphysical spiritual fault lines in the fabric of the Force. This has been noted many times from Shatterpoint to the Revenge of the Sith novel and he has feats doing it. So there is precedent for the idea is that Krayt could pour Force energy into not just physical, but metaphysical cracks in the fabric of reality.

See what he's doing? He kills Cade using Dark Transfer, then resurrects him using the same power. And we know he's doing more than just repairing his organs; he's making him see the same vision he saw while traversing the netherworld that made him learn Dark Transfer and "see the truth of things." So we know that Cade's spirit is at the very least in some limbo, and not fully in the physical realm. Yet Krayt is able to revive him using Dark Transfer. How would he be able to do that if his power were confined to the physical? To me, it's clear that, like Mace Windu, he's acquired the ability to perceive metaphysical and spiritual shatterpoints, and he's able to pour Force energy into these fault lines, either to destroy or heal.

So my proposition is this: could Krayt also theoretically perceive the weaknesses in his own spirit like he did with Cade's and pour Force energy into those cracks to essentially make himself more powerful by willing it so?

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Valid points on the whole. Just because something seems implausible in how it came to be, it doesn't necessarily change that it is the case.

I don't think the Trooper is lying. For exaggerating, I have a theory. Imagine from birth your entire life revolved around the fanatic devotion and worship of one man. A man who chose you by hand, is in your mind constantly, who you are an extension of the will of. The "One Sith" is one cohesive unit which is at the behest, under the uncontested rule of one supreme leader.

If that was all I knew about the world, I might assume that that is the same for everyone else who lives under Krayt's empire, and so he may genuinely believe millions of people, Sith and Imperials alike, all share a will with Krayt. In a sense he might be correct, that Krayt's will marshals his proxy armies of Imperials, soldiers, spies, politicians and Sith, in both direct and indirect senses.

Well, I certainly understand why an individual devoted to their Master might describe the latter in flowery, grandiose language. Your point is well taken there. That said, I don't see any reason to believe the "millions" comment is inaccurate.

Additionally, I think if it doesn't refer to strictly Sith troopers, you create the same problem in a different direction. Krayt's empire most certainly is comprised of far more than mere "millions" of pawns.

One of the other interesting notions to me is Krayt’s position relative to his Sith predecessors of both the Banite and ancient Sith persuasions. After discussing things with ILS, I’m not convinced that Karness Muur is necessarily more powerful than Vong Krayt.

The topic of how the various Orders/Iterations of the Sith stack up as a whole is interesting. I'd offer that Reborn!Krayt is probably most closely aligned with the extreme ends of the ancient Sith and Banite orders (Vitiate, Plagueis, PT Sidious territory) and no lower.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
The topic of how the various Orders/Iterations of the Sith stack up as a whole is interesting. I'd offer that Reborn!Krayt is probably most closely aligned with the extreme ends of the ancient Sith and Banite orders (Vitiate, Plagueis, PT Sidious territory) and no lower.

In terms of the former I'd argue the One Sith don't rate very high at all. Save for Krayt himself, there are no top tier Sith in his empire. Wyyrlok III is quite impressive(and his daughter's potential was scary) but he is like Dooku or Maul. One level below the truly exceptional Sith. In that regard Krayt created more of a flash in the pan empire, similar to Exar Kun. One or two powerful individual and an army of random mooks.

Originally posted by Unbowed
Well there are really only two metrics by which you can rate a Sith Order. The strength of the Lords it produced, and how quickly/totally it achieved dominance of the Galaxy. It terms of the latter Krayt's order is definitely in the top two, next to the Banites, but it could be argued that it's in fact the most successful Order of all time, if you consider the fact that it took no more than a century for it to grow from inception to near total domination of the Galaxy and almost wiping out the Jedi. Palpatine did a little better on both counts, and that's against a stronger Jedi Order and a stronger Republic, but it took 10x the time and a Chosen One for it to happen.

In terms of the former I'd argue the One Sith don't rate very high at all. Save for Krayt himself, there are no top tier Sith in his empire. Wyyrlok III is quite impressive(and his daughter's potential was scary) but he is like Dooku or Maul. One level below the truly exceptional Sith. In that regard Krayt created more of a flash in the pan empire, similar to Exar Kun. One or two powerful individual and an army of random mooks.

And yes, I'd say that's a nice way of putting it. Krayt didn't want much contention over his supreme rule and vision for the Order. In many ways the Order is a natural extension of Krayt's own will and motivations, and his Sith are just proxy agents. The only competition was between Sith vying for Krayt's approval so that they can serve him to a greater degree. It is noted that Krayt in an unprecedented way curbed the natural desire to overthrow and backstab in a Sith Order, and that's without talking about his unquestioning army of Sith Troopers.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
[B]Krayt built and inherited his empire on the back of Sidious' work, per the Legacy Era sourcebook. Sidious laid the foundations. Krayt did build his Sith Order from the ground up, but not the Galactic Empire. That's key. He also benefited from the galaxy being ravaged by the Vong and Abeloth, and struck the Jedi by exploiting a weakness in that aftermath.

So yes, technically Palpatine was a little more successful, but he stood on the shoulders of giants. When Krayt first had his vision for the Sith he was just some random guy with a holocron.

Those are fair points, and I'm not immediately sure I can contradict your logic here so I won't argue. And technically, Krayt was some random guy who didn't even have a holocron when he had his vision, he was some near-dead political prisoner of an extra-galactic alien invasion force.

Let's not derail the thread, but for the record...

The lion's share of the work was done by Sheev.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
The topic of how the various Orders/Iterations of the Sith stack up as a whole is interesting. I'd offer that Reborn!Krayt is probably most closely aligned with the extreme ends of the ancient Sith and Banite orders (Vitiate, Plagueis, PT Sidious territory) and no lower.

After our conversations, I can see peak!Krayt rivaling any Sith barring the reborn Emperor.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Krayt built and inherited his empire on the back of Sidious' work, per the Legacy Era sourcebook. Sidious laid the foundations. Krayt did build his Sith Order from the ground up, but not the Galactic Empire. That's key. He also benefited from the galaxy being ravaged by the Vong and Abeloth, and struck the Jedi by exploiting a weakness in that aftermath.

And yes, I'd say that's a nice way of putting it. Krayt didn't want much contention over his supreme rule and vision for the Order. In many ways the Order is a natural extension of Krayt's own will and motivations, and his Sith are just proxy agents. The only competition was between Sith vying for Krayt's approval so that they can serve him to a greater degree. It is noted that Krayt in an unprecedented way curbed the natural desire to overthrow and backstab in a Sith Order, and that's without talking about his unquestioning army of Sith Troopers.

It's not really the political thing that's relevant to Unbowed's point - there's a distinction between the mundane Empire that Krayt inherited by piggybacking off of others' work and the mystic Sith Order that he built himself from scratch. It's kind of remarkable how the likes of Bane, Tenebrous and Plagueis all considered it an impossibility to exterminate the Jedi through brute force, yet Krayt did it anyway. He accomplished in a little over a century what the Sith had been continually failing at for the past seven millennia.

Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
The topic of how the various Orders/Iterations of the Sith stack up as a whole is interesting. I'd offer that Reborn!Krayt is probably most closely aligned with the extreme ends of the ancient Sith and Banite orders (Vitiate, Plagueis, PT Sidious territory) and no lower.

Agreed completely. Krayt's cosmic powers are far too puissant to rank him merely on the level of someone like Exar Kun, Darth Bane and such. Only the upper echelons of the Sith have such descriptions of their abilities like having "a recorder on the eye of fate," and being depicted as prophetic figures like Krayt appearing in visions as an enigmatic dark man to Luke and Jacen, sitting on the Throne of Balance. And we even discussed in our calls how Reborn Krayt might be a 4D reality warper, which would put the nail in that coffin.

In short, he's far too cosmologically significant to be anything but a first-rate Sith Lord, in my opinion

Originally posted by Azronger
It's not really the political thing that's relevant to Unbowed's point - there's a distinction between the mundane Empire that Krayt inherited by piggybacking off of others' work and the mystic Sith Order that he built himself from scratch. It's kind of remarkable how the likes of Bane, Tenebrous and Plagueis all considered it an impossibility to exterminate the Jedi through brute force, yet Krayt did it anyway. He accomplished in a little over a century what the Sith had been continually failing at for the past seven millennia.

I am sure there are quotes that support Krayt being the main mover and shaker in this, and like you later say, it was Krayt showing up in people's nightmares, on the Throne of Balance and so on, likely for good reason.

Bump. Unless anyone has any discussion points they'd like to raise in the near future, I think it could be worthwhile to decide who the next Fireside thread will be on. I'll list the following as candidates:

-Knightfall Darth Vader
-Exar Kun
-Darth Bane
-Revan/Darth Malak
-Galen Marek/Starkiller

Originally posted by The_Tempest
thoroughly

thread
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Originally posted by BestDebaterEver
Bump. Unless anyone has any discussion points they'd like to raise in the near future, I think it could be worthwhile to decide who the next Fireside thread will be on. I'll list the following as candidates:

-Knightfall Darth Vader
-Exar Kun
-Darth Bane
-Revan/Darth Malak
-Galen Marek/Starkiller

A thread on Revan should be done after my debate with Ant has concluded, not before. Same goes for suit Vader.

Knightfall Vader would be a good option, though, but I believe this thread still has lots of discussion value.

Exar Kun should be done tbh.

Valkorion. 🙂

Originally posted by XSUPREMEXSKILLZ
Valkorion. 🙂

Didn't Azronger know that Krayt could perceive Shatterpoints like Windu? 😬

I think Darth Bane is the best option for a fireside chat thread.