Originally posted by Galan007
Perpetua was indeed holding the ACTUAL multiversal superstructure in her hand:There is no ambiguity here. I don't think dialogue can possibly be more explicit.
At no point in the story arc it is implied that the 5th and 6th dimensions are WITHIN the multiverse. You're taking Mxy saying that the 6th dimension sits on top of "EVERYTHING" to mean that the 6th dimension must therefore be housed within the multiverse that Perpetua created...Which is very obviously NOT the case. Again, not only does the 6th dimension PREDATE the multiverse, but the multiverse was originally designed/created from WITHIN the 6th dimension. Mxy told us this, and we saw Perpetua do this... So how can you possibly believe it is part of the multiverse? Makes absolutely no sense to me.
The "multiverse", as defined by Morrison and Snyder, contains the infinite 3D multiverse/Hypertime, the God Sphere, Limbo, the Monitor Sphere, the Dark Multiverse, and everything in between. The 5th and 6th dimensions themselves are OUTSIDE of Perpetua's multiverse. Nothing suggests otherwise, imo.
Yes, I do think that's what World Forger did, because that's what we were told he was doing multiple times. The Source Wall was broken, though, which is why WF started fashioning a new multiverse in the first place: he foresaw the calamity to come, and that seemed like the best alternative to ensure survival.
Do I think Mxy can bypass the Source Wall when he 'ports into the multiverse and whatnot? Absolutely. Do I think he can exist in the Overvoid? Absolutely. It's Mxy, ffs... Are we now trying to limit/contain him to a single strata of existence as well? C'mon now...
hmm, maybe i see the crux of the issue we're having--i'm defining the multiverse as "that area bounded by the source wall." my contention is that when the source wall was created, it encompassed the 6th (and obviously the 5th) dimensions along with the baser dimensions. if the multiverse was a basketball, the outermost layer of skin would be the 6th. Or maybe it’s like if I glued an action figure to the TOP of the ball. Still PART of the multiverse, but “above it”. The source wall would encompass it though, in either case.
not sure how you can say there is nothing to imply the sixth dimension is part of the multiverse though:
https://imgur.com/a/otFyXUY
perpetua includes the 6th in her assessment of the multiverse's state. the brothers TELL us ALL universes end at the source wall. you think they meant ALL and....didn't include their OWN dimension...?
imo, the sixth dimension came into being AS the multiverse was born. you seem to be saying the 6th dimension is the overvoid--jlx seems to have said the same thing. it's not, obviously. she ripped her multiverse, and the sixth dimension, OUT OF the overvoid. the 6th and the multiverse would have come into being simultaneously imo. How can the dimension predate the multiverse? I guess it may have been the first PART she created, but it’s still just a PART of the multiverse she made. Before the multiverse there was just overvoid through which perpetua traveled. (Not sure what jlx is thinking when he’s talking about multiverses….swimming… they “swim” through the overvoid--that much is clear--and I certainly don’t see my pov as meaningless…. quite the opposite--i see it as pretty obvious, like you guys see your own pov. That whole post was...well, it didn’t make sense to me. /shrug)
Anyway, to me it's very apparent that in these scans:
https://imgur.com/a/enIToQT
she is just showing them representations of the multiverse, (i mean we literally see 2 very different aspects of it--the tripartite whole, and the orrery) which, when it was FULLY formed (because it wasn't done yet) would simply have expanded around them, or...below them.
To be clear here: there is NO support--ZERO--that shows (a) the 6th exists BEYOND the wall. All your proofs are from a time BEFORE the wall was erected and the multiverse was bounded, and (b) that these beings are able to freely move beyond the source wall to where you think the 6th d is. Literally, zero proof. Not one instance of any of them--or mxy--moving beyond or through the wall.
The breaking of the wall was the entire premise behind like, 3 years of work in dc. the characters who have breached the wall are very few, but you think mxy and the brothers have been freely moving back and forth this whole time?? That seems….completely crazy to me. If something like THAT were happening, surely we’d have seen it at some point….
So again, ZERO proof the 6th lies beyond the wall. I did show a direct scan though where the brothers themselves admit the wall is the absolute end of ALL universes. And yes, i think they meant dimensions as well….
there is also this:
https://imgur.com/4Bi0bFL
again, clear indication that the wall is the END. i mean how can imagine exist with no thought?? Literally nothing existed beyond the wall until the very recent explorations.
i'd say they may only have accessed the 6th SINCE the break, and that would be a hugely convincing argument in your favor, but the brothers have died and are reformed there, so....that argument doesn't hold.
the "outside the multiverse" scan is old--countdown?? Really? That’s like...12 years old or something! C’mon… we saw what phil did with his macroverse argument. old info is irrelevant. That was WELL before the current view of dc cosmology had been instituted, and nothing since suggests the 5th is outside the source wall. In fact, using countdown, the multiverse was defined simply as:
https://imgur.com/a/kdmxigQ
“The parallel earths.” IE--the ORRERY! Nothing at all about it existing beyond the source wall…. Beyond the orrery? Of course. 👆 If we go by countdown, the collapse of the wall would ultimately cause the 52 universes to again collapse into one universe (ruled by monarch at the time, had he won….)
https://imgur.com/a/yBUUL2N
Clearly the breaking of the source wall means something way, WAY different today, so that entire scan should simply be tossed out, regardless. I’m surprised you’re even using it since it’s so far out of date as to be utterly meaningless.
phil--your analogy....doesn't work. you're trying to create an equivalency between solid, rl matter, and....metaphysical, comic book dimensions. my friend, that will never work. the 6th is the top--mxy wiped out everything below, and wf was gonna replace it and have his multiverse descend into its place. /shrug
it's rare when we all disagree this strongly, but it really boils down to something simple---i think the wall contains contains the 5th and 6th dimensions. to me that is the CRYSTAL clear implication in light of the entire 3 year arc. What was beyond the wall was the great unknown:
https://imgur.com/a/8u9XxV8
“THE SOURCE WALL, WHERE EVERYTHING ENDS”.
THAT is what snyder was trying to expand on. He’s repeated this sentiment SEVERAL times. In light of that fact, it makes absolutely no sense to me to suppose these characters have been traveling from one side of the wall to the other this whole time. It cheapens the story, lessens the mystery of the wall, flies in the face of morrison’s description of “beyond the wall” and really is a needless complication.
Anyway, i’m done with the topic. I don’t suppose i can change any of your minds, and in this, none of you are coming close to changing mine. Summer vacation has officially begun (YAY!!) and i no longer care enough to argue this. Perhaps one of these days some even more definitive proof will come to light that is inarguable. 👆
