any time one writer (even morrison's original map wasn't perfect) tries to do something as all-encompassing as this (rewriting/redefining the entire multiverse) there is bound to be issues of consistency. but since the forum is all about 'current' versions, it does force us to look at things with new eyes, imo. not everything will make sense, but i think we need to try and make them make sense in light of what is currently taking place with morrison's foundation. /shrug
The scans I already posted couldn't have been clearer, imo, but I'll try to explain in greater detail since Albert evidently has a hard time with this stuff...
The 5th dimension = imagination, and at a literal/metafictional level, imagination comprises almost EVERYTHING in the comics we read. So in THAT respect, there is certainly 5D power within the multiverse(inc. the Bleed) -- Mxy said as much. However, the 5th dimension/Zrfff itself sits OUTSIDE the multiverse(I posted the scan), and the 6th dimension is a level/scale above even the 5th dimension(duh)... The 6th dimension PREDATES the multiverse, and while inside the 6th dimension, Perpetua was literally holding the entire multiversal superstructure in the palm of her hand:
...So I'm confused how people could think the 6th dimension(which is the realm Perpetua is standing in) actually resides inside the multiverse she is holding? That's like me picking up a basketball, then claiming that myself AND the entire universe now exist INSIDE that basketball.
I don't mind a good discussion, but it seems like some pretty cut-and-dry facts are being willfully ignore here, and I'm not sure why..? To try and lessen DC's established cosmology, and/or make it seem like Marvel's is actually superior?
I don't get it. 😕
Okay first of all first.
Abhilegend.
1. If the 6th dimension is beyond the Source Wall, then the Monitors wouldnt have been cut off from the Greater Omniverse.
2. GALAN, I don't think it's in the multiverse she's holding, but multiverse can mean anything.
The Sphere of the Gods is on the multiverse map, but sometimes just the Earths are called the multiverse, for instance, so even in DC people use the word differently.
The Source Wall surrounds the Dark Multiverse, the Anti-Matter Universe, and the normal Multiverse, and together those 2 multiverses+ a universe can also collectively be called a multiverse. Add in the Sphere of Gods, and you can still call it a multiverse. Add in the 5thD and the 6thD, and you can still call it a multiverse.
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
Okay first of all first.Abhilegend.
1. If the 6th dimension is beyond the Source Wall, then the Monitors wouldnt have been cut off from the Greater Omniverse.
2. GALAN, I don't think it's in the multiverse she's holding, but multiverse can mean anything.
The Sphere of the Gods is on the multiverse map, but sometimes just the Earths are called the multiverse, for instance, so even in DC people use the word differently.
The Source Wall surrounds the Dark Multiverse, the Anti-Matter Universe, and the normal Multiverse, and together those 2 multiverses+ a universe can also collectively be called a multiverse. Add in the Sphere of Gods, and you can still call it a multiverse. Add in the 5thD and the 6thD, and you can still call it a multiverse.
I'm confused as to why the mainstream multiverse being sealed off from the rest of the multiverses in the omniverse means the 6th dimension must be within the multiverse by proxy..?
Per JL#22:
-The 6th dimension PREDATES the multiverse... So if the 6th dimension was there first, how can it be inside the multiverse?
-While in the 6th dimension, Perpetua not only created the multiverse, but was literally holding the entire multiversal structure in the palm of her hand. No metaphors, it was the actual multiverse from the outside.
Why is this being ignored?
Originally posted by Galan007
The scans I already posted couldn't have been clearer, imo, but I'll try to explain in greater detail since Albert evidently has a hard time with this stuff...The 5th dimension = imagination, and at a literal/metafictional level, imagination comprises almost EVERYTHING in the comics we read. So in THAT respect, there is certainly 5D power within the multiverse(inc. the Bleed) -- Mxy said as much. However, the 5th dimension/Zrfff itself sits OUTSIDE the multiverse(I posted the scan), and the 6th dimension is a level/scale above even the 5th dimension(duh)... The 6th dimension PREDATES the multiverse, and while inside the 6th dimension, Perpetua was literally holding the entire multiversal superstructure in the palm of her hand:
...So I'm confused how people could think the 6th dimension(which is the realm Perpetua is standing in) actually resides inside the multiverse she is holding? That's like me picking up a basketball, then claiming that myself AND the entire universe now exist INSIDE that basketball.
I don't mind a good discussion, but it seems like some pretty cut-and-dry facts are being willfully ignore here, and I'm not sure why..? To try and lessen DC's established cosmology, and/or make it seem like Marvel's is actually superior?
I don't get it. 😕
for my part, it looks like she's holding the orrery, or part of the multiverse, indicating what that part COULD/WOULD become in time. which makes sense given that she earlier showed them a DIFFERENT view of the multiverse when she was describing the tripartite form she was giving it. that image was much larger than the second one, again lending credence to the fact that she is showing them representations of the multiverse while they are in the 6th dimension. /shrug
but like i said, from mxy's description where he explicitly states that the 6th is the tip top of the multiverse, and based on the intent of the map and the wall, i'm not sure how it can be said either the 5th (where was that scan about the 5th being outside the multiverse from again?) or 6th dimensions are outside the multiverse AS IT IS NOW DEFINED. maybe you think i'm being, i dunno, bitter for some reason because we haven't exactly seen eye-to-eye with some of this stuff, but...hopefully you know me a little better than that. i mean do you really think mxy can...FREELY travel past the source wall into the source itself? or into the overvoid? scans to support that? i can get imagination in the metatext form existing--and i think it does as part of the blank canvas of the overvoid, the 'tool' used by the writers. the dimension itself seems firmly entrenched in the current multiverse. at least imo.
i do agree it appears to be pretty cut and dry but i'm not sure how any of that being true lessens dc's status.....? 😕 it can still be argued their multiverse is larger--if that matters somehow--so i dunno.
Originally posted by Galan007
I'm confused as to why the mainstream multiverse being sealed off from the rest of the multiverses in the omniverse means the 6th dimension must be within the multiverse by proxy..?Per JL#22:
-The 6th dimension PREDATES the multiverse... So if the 6th dimension was there first, how can it be inside the multiverse?
-While in the 6th dimension, Perpetua not only created the multiverse, but was literally holding the entire multiversal structure in the palm of her hand. No metaphors, it was the actual multiverse from the outside.Why is this being ignored?
i can get why you're saying this, and can't definitively say this is NOT the case. but mxy's text IS very explicit, so while you're saying we're ignoring an image (that i never really interpreted that way) i could just as easily say you're ignoring mxy's description, no?
i'd think the 6th was made in the multiverse was built around it. legit question: if the brothers die, they go to the 6th, yes? but how could they access the prime multiverse from the OUTSIDE if the source wall is between them and the 6th...?
Originally posted by Galan007
I'm confused as to why the mainstream multiverse being sealed off from the rest of the multiverses in the omniverse means the 6th dimension must be within the multiverse by proxy..?Per JL#22:
-The 6th dimension PREDATES the multiverse... So if the 6th dimension was there first, how can it be inside the multiverse?
-While in the 6th dimension, Perpetua not only created the multiverse, but was literally holding the entire multiversal structure in the palm of her hand. No metaphors, it was the actual multiverse from the outside.Why is this being ignored?
Are you serious?
Because multiverse can mean different things. She was holding the Earths, sure, but the Sphere of Gods and Dark Multiverse weren't in her hands but we know they were sealed by the Source Wall too.
Plus, it's not sealed if the Monitors could just kill themselves to leave the Source Wall, that's not really a good seal. We know that the normal Monitor respawned before the Source Wall broke, and he was still able to get back into the rest of the multiverse. Same with the AM.
the original creation of perpetua is bigger than orrery of worlds
orrery of worlds are the product after COIE, what perpetua holding was the creation before the crisis
world forger and monitor mentioned sphere of gods, anti matter universe during that issue
the 6th dimension has to be above the multiverse because this dimension is the factory where ALL MULTIVERSES create and destroy
Originally posted by leonidasI think you're mixing up what was actually shown/stated on the pages.
for my part, it looks like she's holding the orrery, or part of the multiverse, indicating what that part COULD/WOULD become in time. which makes sense given that she earlier showed them a DIFFERENT view of the multiverse when she was describing the tripartite form she was giving it. that image was much larger than the second one, again lending credence to the fact that she is showing them representations of the multiverse while they are in the 6th dimension. /shrugbut like i said, from mxy's description where he explicitly states that the 6th is the tip top of the multiverse, and based on the intent of the map and the wall, i'm not sure how it can be said either the 5th (where was that scan about the 5th being outside the multiverse from again?) or 6th dimensions are outside the multiverse AS IT IS NOW DEFINED. maybe you think i'm being, i dunno, bitter for some reason because we haven't exactly seen eye-to-eye with some of this stuff, but...hopefully you know me a little better than that. i mean do you really think mxy can...FREELY travel past the source wall into the source itself? or into the overvoid? scans to support that? i can get imagination in the metatext form existing--and i think it does as part of the blank canvas of the overvoid, the 'tool' used by the writers. the dimension itself seems firmly entrenched in the current multiverse. at least imo.
i do agree it appears to be pretty cut and dry but i'm not sure how any of that being true lessens dc's status.....? 😕 it can still be argued their multiverse is larger--if that matters somehow--so i dunno.
In JL#22 Perpetua was creating the literal multiverse, just as she literally created her children to tend to it on those same pages. She was actually holding the ENTIRE multiversal structure(marveling at its beauty) and explaining what her childrens' roles would be within it. Those scans were already posted by abhi, but it really couldn't be clearer what's happening there.
In JL#19 Mxy is explaining the 6th dimension. He explains that it sits at the top of EVERYTHING, and explains that it is also where the multiverse was designed/created. So again, if it was there BEFORE the multiverse, it cannot be WITHIN the multiverse.
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvilI'm using the term 'multiverse' as it is used/defined in DC comics on Morrison's Map(which is what Snyder was also basing his story from.) The 5th and 6th dimensions are beyond it. Your baseless opinions aside, nothing disproves this. Sorry.
Are you serious?Because multiverse can mean different things. She was holding the Earths, sure, but the Sphere of Gods and Dark Multiverse weren't in her hands but we know they were sealed by the Source Wall too.
Plus, it's not sealed if the Monitors could just kill themselves to leave the Source Wall, that's not really a good seal. We know that the normal Monitor respawned before the Source Wall broke, and he was still able to get back into the rest of the multiverse. Same with the AM.
So your contention is that the multiverse contains a dimension that PREDATES it? Lol, have fun with that. 👆
Originally posted by leonidas
for my part, it looks like she's holding the orrery, or part of the multiverse, indicating what that part COULD/WOULD become in time. which makes sense given that she earlier showed them a DIFFERENT view of the multiverse when she was describing the tripartite form she was giving it. that image was much larger than the second one, again lending credence to the fact that she is showing them representations of the multiverse while they are in the 6th dimension. /shrugbut like i said, from mxy's description where he explicitly states that the 6th is the tip top of the multiverse, and based on the intent of the map and the wall, i'm not sure how it can be said either the 5th (where was that scan about the 5th being outside the multiverse from again?) or 6th dimensions are outside the multiverse AS IT IS NOW DEFINED. maybe you think i'm being, i dunno, bitter for some reason because we haven't exactly seen eye-to-eye with some of this stuff, but...hopefully you know me a little better than that. i mean do you really think mxy can...FREELY travel past the source wall into the source itself? or into the overvoid? scans to support that? i can get imagination in the metatext form existing--and i think it does as part of the blank canvas of the overvoid, the 'tool' used by the writers. the dimension itself seems firmly entrenched in the current multiverse. at least imo.
i do agree it appears to be pretty cut and dry but i'm not sure how any of that being true lessens dc's status.....? 😕 it can still be argued their multiverse is larger--if that matters somehow--so i dunno.
Not to mention that the location of the Source Wall is straight up said to be promethean galaxy.
Full sequence.
That was where GLC was trying to stop the fissure in the Source Wall.
I look forward to how you misinterpret this.