Count Dooku vs Ahsoka

Originally posted by Lord Stark

Obi-Wan's feats against Anakin on Mustafar solidly place him above Maul imo. yes Anakin was overconfident but it doesn't seem like in canon Anakin was operating at a full tier below his max power like he was in Legends.

Are you talking about the force push?

Well we havent seen SOM Maul and Mustafa Anakin Force push each other, so theres still no definitive canon scaling there.

But Given Force powers are definitely influenced by focus and clarity, I think its a safe assumption Anakins force push was hindered.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
I think that's my point. If you showed me the Ahsoka vs. Maul duel I would not have inherently pointed to the moment after Maul gets kicked out of a window as displaying Ahsoka as tired but that's what its meant to be.

Scripts are canon because they give us a window of what the creators of the films were trying to convey. In any sort of visual medium, the screenwriter's/creator's intent is always most important in portrayals.

Scripts are ultimately just a rough guideline for the actors/director. They are not always strictly adhered to once the actual filming begins... And in this case, Dooku being tired is evidently not something that GL wanted Christopher Lee to convey at all... Because he didn't. That's why I, personally, don't believe that scripts are irrefutable -- the finished product is ultimately what matters. /shrug

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Are you talking about the force push?

Well we havent seen SOM Maul and Mustafa Anakin Force push each other, so theres still no definitive canon scaling there.

But Given Force powers are definitely influenced by focus and clarity, I think its a safe assumption Anakins force push was hindered.

There's nothing canon stating Anakin's focus and clarity was hindered in ROTS just that he was overconfident.

Well nothing more than common sense and a basic understanding of visual medium.

Originally posted by Galan007
My point is: the film itself never indicated that Dooku was "tired" by the time he faced Anakin, which would be an extremely important fact to convey if that was really the intent. Moreover, if such an important plot-point existed, then I would think that *some* piece of post-2014 canon would at least allude to it... But to my knowledge, nothing does.

Scripts are ultimately just a rough guideline for the actors/director. They are not always strictly adhered to once the actual filming begins... And in this case, Dooku being tired is evidently not something that GL wanted Christopher Lee to convey at all... Because he didn't.

Disagreed.

1. I think he does seem tired in those final moments by the time he gets to the Chancellor's chair
2. Dooku's head was digitally altered in several moments so its quite possible that the portrayal didn't quite come across as well

And I don't really think that's an "extremely" important fact to convey. The story group isn't sitting here thinking 'well this will be critical if a debate on Anakin vs. Dooku happens on the KMC Star Wars Versus Forum'. Like I said Dooku being weaker than Anakin isn't mutually exclusive with the fact that he was tired by the end of the battle.

We see Dooku sigh with exhaustion after defeating Anakin in AOTCs, logically why tf would he not be tired after facing a far more powerful version of Anakin. This is hit home by Dooku panting heavily facing the two of them on Oba Diah.

It's totally disjointed portrayal if Dooku is 100% fine by the end of a near two-minute duel with Skywalker and Kenobi in ROTS.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
Dooku was definately tired when he fought Yoda On Geonosis. The novel makes it clear that Dooku was tired when he fought Anakin on the Invisible Hand.

The novel also has Dooku draw upon the force to rejuvenate himself before battling Anakin so...

This is actually kind of hysterical.

First the argument was that Dooku was holding back against Anakin. Now it has shifted to Dooku being tired when he fought anakin...... Neither of which can be supported by anything in the film or supplementary material.

The mental gymnastics on display here. facepalm

Originally posted by ares834
The novel also has Dooku draw upon the force to rejuvenate himself before battling Anakin so...

Lmao the hypocrisy here is killing me. How are you gonna pull from the novel and say that overrides the screenplay? Scripts>Novelizations in canon.

Originally posted by Sheev
This is actually kind of hysterical.

First the argument was that Dooku was holding back against Anakin. Now it has shifted to Dooku being tired when he fought anakin...... Neither of which can be supported by anything in the film or supplementary material.

The mental gymnastics on display here. facepalm

Go back and read my posts. I have never argued that Dooku was holding back. Why would he be tired if he wasn't going all out?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Lmao the hypocrisy here is killing me. How are you gonna pull from the novel and say that overrides the screenplay? Scripts>Novelizations in canon.

Hypocrisy? I’m not using it as evidence at all. Juggernaut was. I merely pointed out that the novel itself refuted his own argument.

Originally posted by ares834
Hypocrisy? I’m not using it as evidence at all. Juggernaut was. I merely pointed out that the novel itself refuted his own argument.

Gotcha misread that context. My b.

Originally posted by Lord Stark

We see Dooku sigh with exhaustion after defeating Anakin in AOTCs, logically why tf would he not be tired after facing a far more powerful version of Anakin. This is hit home by Dooku panting heavily facing the two of them on Oba Diah.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Why would he be tired if he wasn't going all out?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Disagreed.

1. I think he does seem tired in those final moments by the time he gets to the Chancellor's chair

I thought you were saying that Dooku was tired before that..?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
And I don't really think that's an "extremely" important fact to convey.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
We see Dooku sigh with exhaustion after defeating Anakin in AOTCs,

As mentioned, scripts are ultimately just a rough guideline for the actors/director. They are not always strictly adhered to once the actual filming begins.

But again: if you're saying that Dooku was only tired after fighting Anakin one-on-one, then I agree with you.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
logically why tf would he not be tired after facing a far more powerful version of Anakin.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
This is hit home by Dooku panting heavily facing the two of them on Oba Diah.

If so, "panting heavily" is a pretty big exaggeration.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
It's totally disjointed portrayal if Dooku is 100% fine by the end of a near two-minute duel with Skywalker and Kenobi in ROTS.

As ares said, even the RotS novelization states that Dooku replenished himself before fighting Anakin one-on-one:

Drawing once more upon the certain knowledge of his personal invincibility to open a channel to the Force. Power flowed into him, and the weight of his years dropped away. He lifted his blade, and beckoned.

And the RotS junior novel also goes out of its way to note that Dooku was not depleted at all by the time it was just he and Anakin:

Only Anakin and Dooku were left. Down the long length of the room they fought, neither one able to gain an advantage. "He's old", Anakin thought. "Maybe I can just outlast him." But the power of the dark side flowed around him, denying that possibility. The dark side would keep Dooku going as long as he needed.

Suffice to say: that line from the script really doesn't hold up on any level. IF it had been hinted at in the film or in any other sources, I would see your point... But clinging to it as the gospel "cuz script" doesn't make sense to me. Unseen/unstated moments of the script are hardly irrefutable -- especially in the face of contradictory evidence.

Originally posted by Galan007
You mean after he had already engaged(and been beaten by) Anakin one-on-one? If so, then I agree.

I thought you were saying that Dooku was tired before that..?

By 2:29 he is visibly exhausted, but that doesn't mean he's not tired earlier than that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYT3ctPuVRw&t=154s

This debate is pointless though. The script>either of our opinions. And the script being canon or at the least canon adjacent overrides either of our opinions.

An opponent being "tired" IS an extremely important fact to convey to the audience, though. It's not just important in battleboard scenarios -- it's important to the plot of the film itself.

It really isn't. The plot isn't impacted at all if Anakin outlasts Dooku or if he overpowers him. Either way Anakin>Dooku. + I think Kenobi looks more tired when he recovers from Dooku's force push.

Right. It was specifically shown in AotC, but not in RotS. That's my point: the film itself didn't allude to it at all.

As mentioned, scripts are ultimately just a rough guideline for the actors/director. They are not always strictly adhered to once the actual filming begins.

But again: if you're saying that Dooku was only tired after fighting Anakin one-on-one, then I agree with you.

Because Dooku's power had also grown noticeably during the Clone Wars:
https://i.imgur.com/lNdHJPw.jpg

"Panting heavily"..?

That's quite an exaggeration, to say the least.

Really? Panting with your mouth open and taking deep breaths from your chest isn't panting heavily? Come on now. And that doesn't really matter considering Anakin and Kenobi have also grown substantially over the Clone Wars.

That's your opinion. But again: when was Dooku shown to be "tired" in the film, and where is it implied in any canon sources?

As ares said, even the RotS novelization states that Dooku replenished himself before fighting Anakin one-on-one:

And the RotS junior novel also goes out of its way to note that Dooku was not depleted at all by the time it was just he and Anakin:

Suffice to say: that line from the script really doesn't hold up on any level. IF it had been hinted at in the film or in any other sources, I would see your point... But clinging to it as the gospel "cuz script" doesn't make sense to me. Unseen/unstated moments of the script are hardly irrefutable -- especially in the face of contradictory evidence.

The script is>either of those in terms of canon. Your interpretation of Christopher Lee's performance is just that of an interpretation. It doesn't supersede the literal thing written by man who directed and wrote the movie to create the film.

If a canon source in the future wants to canonize that "Dooku replenished himself" then I'm happy to concede. But until then I'm gonna stick with the script. Thanks, let's move on. I doubt either of us are gonna change our minds on this at this point.

Originally posted by Galan007

As ares said, even the RotS novelization states that Dooku replenished himself before fighting Anakin one-on-one:

Originally posted by Lord Stark
By 2:29 he is visibly exhausted, but that doesn't mean he's not tired earlier than that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYT3ctPuVRw&t=154s

Trying to use that as evidence of Dooku being tired/fatigued prior to engaging Anakin is just silly, though.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
Really? Panting with your mouth open and taking deep breaths from your chest isn't panting heavily?

No, Dooku is not "panting heavily" there... At all.

Originally posted by Lord Stark
The script is>either of those in terms of canon. Your interpretation of Christopher Lee's performance is just that of an interpretation. It doesn't supersede the literal thing written by man who directed and wrote the movie to create the film.

Aside from that, there are actually quite a bit of scenes/dialogue from the script that were never shown(or were drastically altered) in the film... Do they also default to irrefutable canon, iyo? Just how far are you willing to take this rationale?

Originally posted by Lord Stark
If a canon source in the future wants to canonize that "Dooku replenished himself" then I'm happy to concede. But until then I'm gonna stick with the script. Thanks, let's move on. I doubt either of us are gonna change our minds on this at this point.

But either way, I'm fine with not continuing beyond this. Obviously we aren't going to agree, and I'm not a fan of talking in circles. 👆

I still believe that had Sidious not been there to goad Anakin into using pure rage he probably wouldn't have won the fight. I wonder if had Dooku been using rage, hatred, etc. how much more powerful he would have become.

That was the whole point of the scene was for Anakin to tap into his hatred.

Originally posted by juggernaut74
I wonder if had Dooku been using rage, hatred, etc. how much more powerful he would have become.

Yeah, wouldn't it be rad if Dooku became a Sith Lord or something?

Do they use rage, hatred, etc. all the time?

yeah