Originally posted by Scribble
Your knowledge of the terms we're using aren't entirely off the mark or untrue, but are still lacking in deeper understanding and are thus pretty narrow. Postmodernism as a 'practice' / loose school of thought is incredibly varied and isn't just one thing; there are many different ways of analysing something from a postmodern perspective, as it encompasses many unique concepts.You could write an essay about viewing transgenderism through the concept of artistic bricolage and it'd be a postmodern interpretation of gender, for example.
Postmodernism at its core is skepticism about modernism, or the notion that everything can be reduced to materialism and can therefore, be physically observed, qualified, and quantified.
Originally posted by StyleTime
Thanks for sharing your experience with us Scrib.So, your sex is male. Cool.
But what gender do you identify with? I think Adam is pointing out that rejecting "male" or "female" identities would put you somewhere in the non-binary area(which includes terms like Agender), which is totally cool. If we're reading your story correctly, you don't feel male but don't necessarily feel female either?
(Thread jumped fast than I expected. Haven't read everything)
Precisely.
Originally posted by Artol
I think that's the thinking behind puberty blockers. People think we take a smaller decision now to make it possible for the child to make a more full decision when they are an adult.
Only, puberty blockers aren't a small decision. it's a rather large and permanent decision
Originally posted by Scribble
No worries. The topic interests me, one of the reasons I decided to come out publicly was so I could discuss the topic more in-depth and try to figure it out fully."Identify with" is good wording: I certainly find 'with' more appropriate than 'as', in the case of gender. I mostly identify with femininity and womanhood and I really do wish I had been born a girl — I think it'd have suited me better and I think all-round I'd likely have been happier female. But masculinity is obviously what I know in terms of experience, so I don't disavow it, and I've learned to appreciate my masculine side, too. As such, a specific gender term doesn't do much for me, but I'm sure there are terms that'd fit me; it's just that I don't find any practical use to them. I mostly come at gender from a Jungian perspective — I'm deeply fascinated by the concepts of the anima and animus — but that's perhaps a bit long-winded to go into here, haha.
In terms of the good old pronoun question, I just go by / prefer whatever I present as, as I think pronouns are only really useful as identification markers. I would present female all the time, but passing is very important to me, so I choose to present male for my job, and live feminine as much as possible otherwise.
Stop playing chess against your own brain. You are just being pedantic. There are terms that describe what you are describing. That you do not find them particularly gratifying does not mean they are not useful. That is why language exists, so we can have a shared mode of transmitting and decoding abstract thought.
Originally posted by Scribble
No worries. The topic interests me, one of the reasons I decided to come out publicly was so I could discuss the topic more in-depth and try to figure it out fully."Identify with" is good wording: I certainly find 'with' more appropriate than 'as', in the case of gender. I mostly identify with femininity and womanhood and I really do wish I had been born a girl — I think it'd have suited me better and I think all-round I'd likely have been happier female. But masculinity is obviously what I know in terms of experience, so I don't disavow it, and I've learned to appreciate my masculine side, too. As such, a specific gender term doesn't do much for me, but I'm sure there are terms that'd fit me; it's just that I don't find any practical use to them. I mostly come at gender from a Jungian perspective — I'm deeply fascinated by the concepts of the anima and animus — but that's perhaps a bit long-winded to go into here, haha.
In terms of the good old pronoun question, I just go by / prefer whatever I present as, as I think pronouns are only really useful as identification markers. I would present female all the time, but passing is very important to me, so I choose to present male for my job, and live feminine as much as possible otherwise.
Anyway, you're certainly entitled to your experiences and I wouldn't force a label onto anyone. I'm trying to better understand you though, so forgive me if I'm off on any of this.
If I understand correctly, you actually would prefer to live as a woman, but often feel pressured by the world around you to do otherwise, like with your job?
Originally posted by Adam_PoEI already went over this: much of the trans community would state that I am a transwoman in denial (an 'egg', using modern trans terminology). Hence 'technically', as that technicality could put me in that box, despite me disagreeing. I agree with you that I am not, but many would disagree with us. Others would agree, but that's because, again, the rhetoric in the TRA community changes frequently and thus a consensus on actual, 'true' definitions is hard to ascertain (which, again, is clearly symptomatic of postmodern thought).
You initially stated that you are "technically a transwoman." I asked you to clarify, and you confirmed that you do not identify as a woman, trans or otherwise. Rather, you are operating with your own definition of transwoman that is not a transwoman as anyone else understands the term. You could technically be a giant too if you are operating with a personal definition of giant that no one else recognizes or shares.
Also note that I have my own specific definition of 'trans-gender', not transwoman; I believe my word usage makes this clear, but apologies if it wasn't clear enough for you. I invite you to reread our discussion from the start so as to help you understand.
Originally posted by Adam_PoEThe whole point of this gender identity stuff is that you're meant to find something that is gratifying to you, though, so why should I conform to something that I think is unhelpful? Your perspective on this is weird, and strangely hostile. I'm going to stop engaging with you now, no offense but I don't really see myself gaining any leeway with you; you'll refute anything I say.
Stop playing chess against your own brain. You are just being pedantic. There are terms that describe what you are describing. That you do not find them particularly gratifying does not mean they are not useful. That is why language exists, so we can have a shared mode of transmitting and decoding abstract thought.
Originally posted by StyleTimeYeah, the whole thing of passing is complicated. For me, it's heavily more just that I'm a person who's never liked getting social attention in any form — I tend to dress and present as ordinary as possible, so to avoid such attention. My desire to fully pass is more born of that than anything: if I appeared more gender non-conforming, then people would look at me and possibly scrutinise me. It's the same reason I don't dye my hair. Hence, when I'm presenting female, I try to look as much like an 'ordinary' woman as possible, and avoid talking to people whenever I can (my 'femme voice' is not convincing).
I see. I had a trans-man friend who experienced similar fear of "not passing." I think some trans people feel pressure to be unwavering bastions of masculinity/femininity so they can be accepted. I always wondered why he felt the need to appear hyper "dude-like" constantly. I didn't quite grasp my CIS privilege at that time: I'm comfortable showing feminine interests because I was born male, so I don't have to worry about having my maleness questioned, outside of jokes. I hope trans people become more comfortable displaying their full range of masculine/feminine expression, but society would have to change a bit before that.Anyway, you're certainly entitled to your experiences and I wouldn't force a label onto anyone. I'm trying to better understand you though, so forgive me if I'm off on any of this.
If I understand correctly, you actually would prefer to live as a woman, but often feel pressured by the world around you to do otherwise, like with your job?
Don't worry about it, usually most of this is internalised so it's interesting typing it out.
It's more that I'd just prefer to have been born a woman, than anything. As I said, I've come to terms with my masculine side and enjoy expressing that side of me too, through wearing 'typical' male clothing such as suit and tie combos, and I just think that fits my job role best. I don't feel that much pressure from the world, really. I'm incredibly lucky to live in a liberal area, have accepting parents and friends, etc., so that has naturally influenced the way I approach it — I think if one receives more active kickback, that might necessitate a decision to be more brazen and open about it, as a social and personal statement. As it is for me, I'm able approach it fairly lackadaisically.
Environment is obviously highly important when it comes to this issue — for some people, passing can be the matter of life or death, and some people don't have the luxury of being able to pass at all. I believe that as a trans person I am incredibly privileged, and that that privilege has influenced my approach deeply: another clear example of that is that I don't have to pick a name for my identity because I'm not being dehumanised.
Anyway, I'm kind of going on a bit here, I'll leave it there for now. I don't mind your questioning so please do ask anything you want clarified or expounded upon.
Originally posted by Scribble
I already went over this: much of the trans community would state that I am a transwoman in denial (an 'egg', using modern trans terminology). Hence 'technically', as that technicality could put me in that box, despite me disagreeing. I agree with you that I am not, but many would disagree with us.
They are wrong though.
Originally posted by Scribble
The whole point of this gender identity stuff is that you're meant to find something that is gratifying to you, though, so why should I conform to something that I think is unhelpful? Your perspective on this is weird, and strangely hostile. I'm going to stop engaging with you now, no offense but I don't really see myself gaining any leeway with you; you'll refute anything I say.
Labels are communication shortcuts. My only point is there are lots of labels that could accurately be applied to someone that they would not particularly find gratifying, but would still apply to them nonetheless. If there is a label that describes something, it describes something.
Originally posted by Scribble
@Adam_PoE: If you really want to label me with a useful term that decodes this abstract line of thought, then I suppose you could just use 'gender non-conforming'; it's fairly broad but also an accurate descriptive term, and it sidesteps a lot of the more murky BS. Does that satiate you?
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Originally posted by Adam_PoEYeah, we agree there.
They are wrong though.
Originally posted by Adam_PoEWe also agree here mostly, I just don't find any of the established labels to be effective for me or describe me specifically all that well. Most of them are tied up in ideology and have too many connotations. I'm just happy to be a male-bodied human being person, but you could probably apply 'gender non-conforming', or 'gender fluid' to me, as well as 'non-binary', etc., but idk man, I wouldn't call myself those things, nor would I be offended if you chose to refer to me as them. srug
Labels are communication shortcuts. My only point is there are lots of labels that could accurately be applied to someone that they would not particularly find gratifying, but would still apply to them nonetheless. If there is a label that describes something, it describes something.
Like I said, I'm pretty easy with it, call me whatever you like as long as it's not something intentionally derogatory.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
👆
Originally posted by Scribble
We also agree here mostly, I just don't find any of the established labels to be effective for me or describe me specifically all that well. Most of them are tied up in ideology and have too many connotations. I'm just happy to be a male-bodied human being person, but you could probably apply 'gender non-conforming', or 'gender fluid' to me, as well as 'non-binary', etc., but idk man, I wouldn't call myself those things, nor would I be offended if you chose to refer to me as them. srug
Then you should come up with one.
Originally posted by Scribble
Yeah, the whole thing of passing is complicated. For me, it's heavily more just that I'm a person who's never liked getting social attention in any form — I tend to dress and present as ordinary as possible, so to avoid such attention. My desire to fully pass is more born of that than anything: if I appeared more gender non-conforming, then people would look at me and possibly scrutinise me. It's the same reason I don't dye my hair. Hence, when I'm presenting female, I try to look as much like an 'ordinary' woman as possible, and avoid talking to people whenever I can (my 'femme voice' is not convincing).Don't worry about it, usually most of this is internalised so it's interesting typing it out.
It's more that I'd just prefer to have been born a woman, than anything. As I said, I've come to terms with my masculine side and enjoy expressing that side of me too, through wearing 'typical' male clothing such as suit and tie combos, and I just think that fits my job role best. I don't feel that much pressure from the world, really. I'm incredibly lucky to live in a liberal area, have accepting parents and friends, etc., so that has naturally influenced the way I approach it — I think if one receives more active kickback, that might necessitate a decision to be more brazen and open about it, as a social and personal statement. As it is for me, I'm able approach it fairly lackadaisically.
Environment is obviously highly important when it comes to this issue — for some people, passing can be the matter of life or death, and some people don't have the luxury of being able to pass at all. I believe that as a trans person I am incredibly privileged, and that that privilege has influenced my approach deeply: another clear example of that is that I don't have to pick a name for my identity because I'm not being dehumanised.
Anyway, I'm kind of going on a bit here, I'll leave it there for now. I don't mind your questioning so please do ask anything you want clarified or expounded upon.
Where I get confused is that you've stated you'd prefer to have been born female, or at least present female fulltime. It sounds like you've resigned yourself to sometimes presenting male out of necessity(like performing your job without drawing attention), rather than any desire to be a man. Have you ever felt like you are a transwoman, but need to rationalize your identity away up over fears of not always passing?
Originally posted by Scribble
Yeah, we agree there.
We also agree here mostly, I just don't find any of the established labels to be effective for me or describe me specifically all that well. Most of them are tied up in ideology and have too many connotations. I'm just happy to be a male-bodied human being person, but you could probably apply 'gender non-conforming', or 'gender fluid' to me, as well as 'non-binary', etc., but idk man, I wouldn't call myself those things, nor would I be offended if you chose to refer to me as them. srugLike I said, I'm pretty easy with it, call me whatever you like as long as it's not something intentionally derogatory.
It doesn't make the terms any less applicable though.
I’m passable when I am in femme attire, but someone will notice at some point or another that I have certain androgynous traits not typically aligned with being female, i.e my height (I’m 6’1), body structure, etc. I do not have a prominent Adam’s apple and my body type is naturally slender. Honestly though, I couldn’t give two shits about being passable. I’m just here to have a good time and look cute while doing it.