Captain America vs. Silver Surfer (with a twist)

Originally posted by darthgoober
As I said if someone believes that Batman is FTL and wants to make that case then that's up to them. I myself don't believe he is for reasons I've already explained though, so obviously I don't support the notion that blizing Batman= blitzing someone with FTL reflexes anymore than I would someone for blitzing Cap.

What you believe is irrelevant. Batman and Cap have similar speed feats as Surfer does, that's undeniable.

What you call having my cake and eating it too is how things work on KMC. We have simultaneous rules about things like PIS and SMvF along with stuff about full capacity and in character and it's up to us to decide when those kinds of things are in play. Of course since minimal examples are given to demonstrate exact limits of those concepts people frequently disagree on where the line ought be drawn(which is what's happening here).

I don't care? What's good for goose is also good for gander.

Depends on how one views things. If there were a rule barring the notion of dismissing some things that qualify as PIS I'd 100% be saying Cap cause I've seen him knock around virtually omnipotent guys like Korvac and Red Skull w/cosmic cube. But if I apply the rules of KMC to my way of thinking I'd probably have to go with Norrin.

Again, I don't care.

Originally posted by abhilegend
What you believe is irrelevant. Batman and Cap have similar speed feats as Surfer does, that's undeniable.

I don't care? What's good for goose is also good for gander.

Again, I don't care.

Also in that last bit I was addressing stilt, hence me quoting him. I can totally get that you don't care what I said to him but why do you feel compelled to point out that you don't care about something that wasn't even said to you?

seeing Abhi go through a meltdown like this just warms my heart 😂 😆 💃

Originally posted by darthgoober
Well you're obviously free to ignore the reality of the situation if you like, I know better than to try to change your mind once you dig your heels in. But the opinions I put forth factor in the forum rules as I interpret them. If you dislike the idea of a subjective concepts like PIS then you might save yourself a bit of grief by avoiding debates/discussions where the existence of the concepts are cemented into the rules that govern the topic in question. Or don't, Hell it's up to you if you want to approach every discussion with the attitude that you don't like that a no PIS rule was written so it didn't happen...

I don't have any problem with the rules, it's your interpretation which you put up as irrefutable fact which is the problem.

Fact is Surfer doesn't even has a hypersonic speed feat off his board.

Also in that last bit I was addressing stilt, hence me quoting him. I can totally get that you don't care what I said to him but why do you feel compelled to point out that you don't care about something that wasn't even said to you?

Oh right, I misquoted. That must be the only time someone has misquoted.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
seeing Abhi go through a meltdown like this just warms my heart 😂 😆 💃

Originally posted by abhilegend
I don't have any problem with the rules, it's your interpretation which you put up as irrefutable fact which is the problem.

Fact is Surfer doesn't even has a hypersonic speed feat off his board.

Oh right, I misquoted. That must be the only time someone has misquoted.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Sure they have. I mean are you denying that peakhuman/low superhuman have accomplished all those things? Of course they have. As for the example, no that's not what I'm trying to convey, but Hell it's not like it'd be technically inaccurate depending on how one judges things. Bat's has(to varying degrees of success) mounted offenses and/or defenses against the speed of guys like Impulse, Zoom, Wonder Woman, and Supes... So if one were inclined to totally disregard meta notions like PIS or SMvF then I'd say he definitely has the feats to back up the claim.

But as I mentioned, no that's not actually what I'm saying because I factor in things like PIS as a matter of logic and common sense. Batman's character concept doesn't support the notion that he possesses that level of speed IMO so I toss out a lot of his craziest feats when I size him up, just as I do for many others of a similar nature. I don't throw out all their crazy stuff by any stretch of the imagination, but I've seen the on panel narration specifically say that Cap was moving at the speed of light at least once(possibly twice) and I still refuse to credit him with that level of ability because it exceeds the maximum level to which I can suspend disbelief. Others are free to disagree of course, I'm just saying how I personally weigh things from my perspective as a reader/fan.

Of the two of us, you're the only one who's tried to put forth their opinion as the end all be all...

Originally posted by abhilegend
What you believe is irrelevant. Batman and Cap have similar speed feats as Surfer does, that's undeniable.

I don't care? What's good for goose is also good for gander.

Again, I don't care.

If this was anyone else fighting Cap in this thread, you'd be lecturing us on how Steve assrapes.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
If this was anyone else fighting Cap in this thread, you'd be lecturing us on how Steve assrapes.

Yes, you would kiss

Originally posted by darthgoober
I don't put forth my interpretation as irrefutable fact, I try to make a point of specifically stating that things are open to interpretation. I mean I frequently assume people know going in that I consider most things open to some degree of interpretation so I might not flat out explain it in my opening, but I'm quick to clarify if anyone seems to takes issue. For instance in this very thread, in my very first response to you specifically I pointed out that such things were open to personal interpretation...

You literally always do that, it's pointless to deny it. Like here you said Surfer has FTL speed and we are all supposed to bow down and accept it.

Why don't you show a single hypersonic speed feat for Surfer without his board?

Of the two of us, you're the only one who's tried to put forth their opinion as the end all be all...

That's not my opinion, it's a fact in comics that Batman and Cap have similar speed feats as Surfer does. We can compare feats if you want.

We know that the board doesn't give Surfer his super reactions and arm movement speed.

With that said, Surfer used nanosecond reactions and hand movement speed to grab Nova while outracing a signal. The time for Surfer to react was several nanoseconds (and he moved his hand in those nanoseconds) if we go by the distance and speed.

Also we have Surfer busting out of shackles within a fraction of a nanosecond.

Originally posted by abhilegend
You literally always do that, it's pointless to deny it. Like here you said Surfer has FTL speed and we are all supposed to bow down and accept it.

Why don't you show a single hypersonic speed feat for Surfer without his board?

You know, I actually remember this kind of thing coming up before in a discussion specifically about combat speed/reflexes Pr addressing it. See there was this guy named The Great Galen who would say things like...

Originally posted by The Great Galen
Why is it so hard to understand, I said specfically that with the aid of SS's board he can travel fast. I'm not referring to SS's speed with the board, I'm addressing his bodily movement...as in his fast he can move his body. I already said that SS can use his board's speed ofensivly or defensily in combat, I was simply remarking over the speed in which SS can move his own body...I was talking about movement speed not the speed of his board.

To which Pr replied...

Originally posted by Raoul
the board is part of him. the board dodging and weaving is = the surfer dodging and weaving.

and yet, you still love him.

So Galen came back with...

Originally posted by The Great Galen
So if Tony flies at FTL speed and can use the speed of his jet offensivly does that constitute bodily movement speed.

And Pr responded...

Originally posted by Raoul
you just missed the point ENTIRELY.

So Galen said...

Originally posted by The Great Galen
No, I get what you're saying.

And Pr expanded by saying...

Originally posted by Raoul
you don't. your answer proved that.

the board isn't a mode of transportation. it's like an extra limb.

So Galen tried to draw a parralel between Surfer's board and Thor's hammer...

Originally posted by The Great Galen
So would you consider the speed Thor's hamer travels at when thrown as a speed feat for thor...especially as movement speed?

Which seemed to be unreasonable by Pr's standards...

Originally posted by Raoul
pr1983

i literally can't find the words to describe how reading your post made me feel...

There was a bit more back and forth but here's another highlight just to make sure Pr's opinion ws fully understood. Galen was dismissing Surfer's speed and reflex feats because of his board by saying...

Originally posted by The Great Galen
I didn't, they just are not what I would quantify as movement speed since he has the aid of his board.

Which Pr countered by saying...

Originally posted by Raoul
my what?

that's like me running with the aid of my legs.

what, my running speed only counts without them?

Now just to be clear, I'm in no way suggesting that Pr was making an official ruling in regards to Surfer having FTL combat abilities or anything like that, I'm simply pointing out that a Mod has already seemed to recognize that there's nothing wrong with crediting Surfer with his feats even if he's on his board. You can of course disagree with him about whether or not such things are logical, but the notion that people are under some specific obligation to find feats without his board is obviously false.

To be fair to your side of the argument though, since the time of that interaction Surfer's board was portrayed as something more along the lines of a pet or travel companion by Dan Slott for an extended period of time... but that's one writer's portrayal that runs counter what was established before it and hasn't been kept up by anyone since(at least to my immediate recollection) so I don't personally put a whole lot of stock in it.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That's not my opinion, it's a fact in comics that Batman and Cap have similar speed feats as Surfer does. We can compare feats if you want.

Since we're digging up what Pr says, we also have him saying Thor isn't that far past elite streets in speed - certainly not Superman, and NOT EVEN Surfer.

Not an official ruling or anything, am just pointing out that a Mod has already recognised that elite streets are slightly below Thor in combat speed, then Surfer, then Superman. And the notion that we need to prove Superman being faster than Thor and Surfer in combat is false.

Would you also agree on this?

Originally posted by darthgoober
You know, I actually remember this kind of thing coming up before in a discussion specifically about combat speed/reflexes Pr addressing it. See there was this guy named The Great Galen who would say things like...

To which Pr replied...

So Galen came back with...

And Pr responded...

So Galen said...

And Pr expanded by saying...

So Galen tried to draw a parralel between Surfer's board and Thor's hammer...

Which seemed to be unreasonable by Pr's standards...

There was a bit more back and forth but here's another highlight just to make sure Pr's opinion ws fully understood. Galen was dismissing Surfer's speed and reflex feats because of his board by saying...

Which Pr countered by saying...

That was then, this is now. At that time Surfer's board wasn't revealed to be sentient and could act autonomously.

Now just to be clear, I'm in no way suggesting that Pr was making an official ruling in regards to Surfer having FTL combat abilities or anything like that, I'm simply pointing out that a Mod has already seemed to recognize that there's nothing wrong with crediting Surfer with his feats even if he's on his board. You can of course disagree with him about whether or not such things are logical, but the notion that people are under some specific obligation to find feats without his board is obviously false.

Times have changed. You'd do well to keep up.

To be fair to your side of the argument though, since the time of that interaction Surfer's board was portrayed as something more along the lines of a pet or travel companion by Dan Slott for an extended period of time... but that's one writer's portrayal that runs counter what was established before it and hasn't been kept up by anyone since(at least to my immediate recollection) so I don't personally put a whole lot of stock in it.

Its the standard portrayal now. Surfer's board is considered sentient now, that's why Surfer is verbally asking for a blade from his board in Silver Surfer black.

I'd love to hear what feats Cap and Bat's have that are similar to rapidly searching the entire surface of the planet Earth. They don't have to be on foot of course since Surfer was on his board, if they've done it in some kind of high speed jet or something like that it would be totally cool.

I was talking about Surfer without the board has similar feats as Batman or Cap.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Since we're digging up what Pr says, we also have him saying Thor isn't that far past elite streets in speed - certainly not Superman, and NOT EVEN Surfer.

Not an official ruling or anything, am just pointing out that a Mod has already recognised that elite streets are slightly below Thor in combat speed, then Surfer, then Superman. And the notion that we need to prove Superman being faster than Thor and Surfer in combat is false.

Would you also agree on this?

Originally posted by abhilegend
That was then, this is now. At that time Surfer's board wasn't revealed to be sentient and could act autonomously.

Times have changed. You'd do well to keep up.

Its the standard portrayal now. Surfer's board is considered sentient now, that's why Surfer is verbally asking for a blade from his board in Silver Surfer black.

I was talking about Surfer without the board has similar feats as Batman or Cap.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Since we're digging up what Pr says, we also have him saying Thor isn't that far past elite streets in speed - certainly not Superman, and NOT EVEN Surfer.

Not an official ruling or anything, am just pointing out that a Mod has already recognised that elite streets are slightly below Thor in combat speed, then Surfer, then Superman. And the notion that we need to prove Superman being faster than Thor and Surfer in combat is false.

Would you also agree on this?

He really wouldn't.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Surfer's got combat speed and reflex on par with anyone on DC.

Which team are we talking about?

Originally posted by Prep-Man
DCU:
Dr. Fate (Kent)
Orion
Silver Age Hal Jordan
Superman
Martian Manhunter
Flash (Wally West)

MU:
Dr. Strange
Thor
Beta Ray Bill
Quasar
Silver Surfer
Hyperion

And I'm supposed to take this guy seriously?

Originally posted by darthgoober
Hey you're entitled to your opinions. I myself believe such things to be open to interpretation, but you're free to believe your interpretation as irrefutable fact if you so choose.

My opinion backed by proof from comics IS irrefutable. That's how debating works dude.

Originally posted by darthgoober
Specifically being faster than another character is a positive assertation, that's typically the kind of thing that needs to be demonstrated. But if he actually was saying that he believed those things and said he didn't feel it was necessary for anyone to support the claim that Supes is definitely faster than both of them then I suppose at the very least it could be said that taking a stance that was in agreement with him would fall within KMC's accepted standard.