Raven vs Dark Phoenix

Started by GalacticStorm18 pages

Originally posted by Juntai
The scans have already been posted through the thread.
Dr Fates tower was the last stand.
Unkindness taking the tower and overpowering the Wizard says this moment is the the end of all things.
When he lands in the past (In the scan Abhi just posted to for like the 5th time trying to get you to read it) he tells us the whole future is already gone.
We’re told that Raven devoured every thread of existence.
Why? because he saw the end. He was there, at the last stand of the multiverse. Which he says, “I was one of the last to stand against the Unkindness”, to further tell us this was indeed the final place.

Now let’s set up that scene, right before the scene at the tower they were on Khandaq and Raven was devouring the planet. A time traveler shows up with the scarab and says she just took Vanishing Point, the end of time. They use the scarab with the magic word and open a door, and boom, the whole multiverse and everything outside of it is already gone as they arrive at Fates tower. Magic is the only thing protecting these peoples from timeline erasure we’re told. Otherwise, it’s all gone.

We're debating over two entirely separate things here. Im not doubting that all reality was eventually destroyed, my point was that it wasnt done simultaneously, it was done a dimenson at a time thereby highlighting Unkindness' destructive capacity i.e universal. She hasnt displayed the ability to casually wipe out an entire dimension with the blink of an eye. Instead its a gradual process bolstered by her minions. She repeated this over and over again until she consumed all of DC. Thats great, but its no M'kraan crystal, no top Phoenix host, Ultimate Nullifier or Phoenix Force itself. These things blink out entire realities in an instant and more. Its no drawn out process. Some of these things have verified multiversal feats as well. The M'kraan crystal destroyed the 6th Cosmos all at once. Top Phoenix hosts wipe out realities literally in the blink of an eye and have warped reality on a multiversal scale and the true PF is the power that births the multiverse and simultaneously empowers hosts across the multiverse with individual ones capable of universal and multiversal feats. Thats insane. Going from reality to reality gradually destroying them with help, then repeating said process to over time consume the multiverse is a nice showing but it isnt top tier.

Then the question remains, what verified and quantifiable on panel feat have you got for Unkindness solo?

She literally has zero solo feats beyond killing the Wizard. 😬

So you believe she gradually one by one devoured the Omniverse in the span of going through a door?

🤦‍♂️

She started out place by place, but then everything at once.

She was attacking a single planet, then boom all realms and higher dimensions and the entire Omniverse gone.
Hence what I said earlier, she attacked all of time/space at once.
You’re just reading a linear book.

Also, Dark Phoenix didn’t have any comparable feats to destroying everything in existence.

Originally posted by Juntai
So you believe she gradually one by one devoured the Omniverse in the span of going through a door the scarab created?

🤦‍♂️

She started out place by place, but then everything at once.

Youre gonna have to present your argument in a more comprehensive way if its to be convincing. Why not share screenshots that you believe specifically demonstrate your point, alongside your analysis of whats going on?

Because im looking at what youre saying and im just not seeing how its explicitly depicted in the comic i have in front of me. Im not here as a fanboy, im here to learn more, i only started debating in this thread because things were being asserted that were not being backed up to any sufficient standard. Im open to being convinced, but the onus is on you to present your case better. So instead of getting frustrated, just present it better.

Post the scans and make your case scene by scene 👆

Originally posted by Juntai
Also, Dark Phoenix didn’t have any comparable feats to destroying everything in existence.

Dark Phoenix is just a state of mind. Its not like your Hulk analogy whereby if shes Dark Phoenix she has these abilities and if shes Green Phoenix she has these abilities.

The Op never stated it was Dark Phoenix specifically in Uncanny X-men issue x to y. He just said Jean Grey Dark Phoenix. Thst means any of her Phoenix feats can be referenced, however her propensity is different. Shes ruthless.

Jean as Phoenix is the most powerful of Phoenix hosts as stated by the PF itself, so she scales beyond all other hosts. She has contained the multiversal power of the M'kraan crystal, wiped out a reality literally within the blink of an eye and demonstrated total atomic control of a reality.

Unkindness has never shown the capacity to wipe out a single reality so casually. Her destruction of DC was gradual over an unspecified amount of time, with the aid of her minions. Universal power is all she demonstrated. She utilized this to target dimension after dimension before everything was destroyed.

Originally posted by Juntai
So you believe she gradually one by one devoured the Omniverse in the span of going through a door?

🤦‍♂️

She started out place by place, but then everything at once.

She was attacking a single planet, then boom all realms and higher dimensions and the entire Omniverse gone.
Hence what I said earlier, she attacked all of time/space at once.
You’re just reading a linear book.

All the Higher realms werent gone though. 😕

They were ransacked, but they still existed:

https://imgur.com/3qiGrmP

https://imgur.com/9nqXrt9

They were reduced to rubble, but said dimensions still existed and were able to be visited and walked through. They werent voids. This ties in with the comic stating that Unkindness' consumption was selective and she destroyed the most powerful parts of dimensions:

https://imgur.com/A8uA4qS

Originally posted by abhilegend
This is the only part of the inane babble that is worth replying. Read the scan again.

"Great and terrible Unkindness. A being of pure malevolence which ravaged the all of time and tide, insatiably consuming every thread of existence."

The comic and it's follow up explicitly state that it was unkindness alone which consumed entire existence but our resident village clown thinks otherwise.

When you can read it, get back to me.

I missed this before. if the destruction happened off panel and with the confirmed aid of others then whilst the destruction is confirmed:

1) her contribution to it vs her minions remains unquantifiable
2) How easy(or difficult) it was for her and how long she took to achieve the feat remains unquantifiable

As always, you completely miss the point but continue to talk 😆

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
All the Higher realms werent gone though. 😕

They were ransacked, but they still existed:

https://imgur.com/3qiGrmP

https://imgur.com/9nqXrt9

They were reduced to rubble, but said dimensions still existed and were able to be visited and walked through. They werent voids. This ties in with the comic stating that Unkindness' consumption was selective and she destroyed the most powerful parts of dimensions:

https://imgur.com/A8uA4qS

😆

These are not the realms themselves. These are pieces of places they took before Unkindness Raven absorbed every thread of existence.

https://imgur.com/gallery/9RtT20V

Now, Unkindness and her minions were definitely targeting perceived threats [ex; SMP1M] as she was gaining power, hitting specific targets, but at a certain point, she just absorbed the omniverse.

See, now I know you knew that, but you still chose to come lie about it.

Originally posted by Juntai
😆

These are not the realms themselves. These are pieces of places they took before Unkindness Raven absorbed every thread of existence.

https://imgur.com/gallery/9RtT20V

Now, Unkindness and her minions were definitely targeting perceived threats [ex; SMP1M] as she was gaining power, hitting specific targets, but at a certain point, she just absorbed the omniverse.

See, now I know you knew that, but you still chose to come lie about it.

You gotta make sure you have your facts straight before you start with the laughing emojis and accusations bro because you never know when a counter can make you look very silly. 😉

Me lying? Either youve misinterpreted (Nothing new there) or youre selectively cropping scans to present a false narrative.

Allow me to present the full scans and along with the context that rubbishes this post 🙂

Phantom Stranger took the heroes on a tour of numerous dimensions:

"You guys are ok following some strange dude through a bunch of dimensions?"

https://imgur.com/9nqXrt9

Whilst leading the heroes through the various ransacked but still very much existing dimensions the Phantom Stranger(PS) talks of how Unkindness recruited the Lords of Chaos because of their capacity for destruction.

PS then talks of how the Quintessence and Lords of Order were making a last stand within the Tower of Fate and that he would lead the heroes inside to meet them.

It is once inside said tower that we see salvaged segments of and beings from the various dimensions that the heroes had just been lead through protected within the tower:

https://imgur.com/fwFwrww

https://imgur.com/t76ssXZ

https://imgur.com/SoBFmPd

So you are conclusively wrong here. Either this was a monumental lack of understanding or an attempt at deceit. Im hoping its the former because the latter would be highly disappointing from an OG. We're not kids anymore bro. 🙁

So i reiterate, Unkindness did NOT destroy all of time and space at once as per your baseless assertions.

As stated numerous times in the comic.

Here:

https://imgur.com/L9IMuIz

and here

https://imgur.com/2wZhQFX

she went from dimension to dimension causing destruction with the support of her minions who its stated were recruited specifically for their destructive capacity:

https://imgur.com/1LyExan

So whilst the overall scale of damage caused by the end of her destruction spree was multiversal, her inferred (inferred because it all happened off panel) destructive capacity was very much universal. As she took down one dimension at a time.

Furthermore we have zero idea of what a solo Unkindness is capable of because all of her feats (bar offing the Wizard) were accomplished with the help and support of both the Lords of Chaos and the 7 Deadly Sins.

The attack on Superman Prime:

https://imgur.com/jJvrhMW

https://imgur.com/4Qs9aZG

https://imgur.com/c2bgHO4

the initial attack on the heroes:

https://imgur.com/JmwVr5U

the final attack on the heroes:

https://imgur.com/HPjsWkN

https://imgur.com/L65Ek5c

All a work of collaboration. As such her individual power whilst inferred to be great, is completely and utterly unquantifiable and mythological. Yay Raven! 😆

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
You gotta make sure you have your facts straight before you start with the laughing emojis and accusations bro because you never know when a counter can make you look very silly. 😉

Now ive heard all you have to say, its now safe for my emojis.

boxing 😆

Ooooo. Hes back. Is this gonna be a comeback? Are we finally gonna see some conclusive evidence and feats that actually take place on panel? 😖hifty:

I predict not. ❌

Its gonna be more "No! Youre wrong! Listen to me! 🤪 Forget that there are no feats. My head canon reigns supreme!" 😆

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Victimhood at its finest. Im sorry i hurt your feelings 2 years ago and youre still in recovery. 😕

😂

With regards to your points, ive explained my interpretation and its supported by the narrative and comic art. Agree or disagree its irrelevant. Neither interpretation makes the Wizard any more powerful than what he is, therefore your attempt to indirectly amp the Unkindness is a certified fail. 😬

I've disregarded your interpretation because those are stupid.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Jason Aarons run retconned the multiverse to be composed of 616 dimensions as a nod to the main reality being called 616.

Lolwut? Where did you get that?

Together Starbrand and Lady Phoenix who was exhausted after a long battle, then warped reality across the entire multiverse. All those realities simultaneously.

No, they reset timeline of 615 Earths. No universes.

Thats a verified feat far greater than the Unkindness going from single dimension to single dimension causing havoc:

https://imgur.com/L9IMuIz

Lady Phoenix is just one single host, that the true Phoenix Force empowers across the multiverse. Its a good thing this thread isnt Raven vs the true Phoenix. it'd be a wipeout 🙁

😂

You're delusional.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I missed this before. if the destruction happened off panel and with the confirmed aid of others then whilst the destruction is confirmed:

1) her contribution to it vs her minions remains unquantifiable
2) How easy(or difficult) it was for her and how long she took to achieve the feat remains unquantifiable

As always, you completely miss the point but continue to talk 😆


You're simply stupid at this point.

You might have got me on the pieces of realms part, I think. I’ll have to look again, As there is definitely pieces of heaven and hell and everything in the tower as well. I’ll give you that one.

You still have to reconcile who she was at the end of the story. She destroyed and absorbed the Omniverse. All of time and tide, all threads of existence. She was the end. So, yes, she went place to place at the beginning eventually she devoured all. She had the power of the Omniverse.

Also, to give the the LOC and 7 Sins credit for it, you’d have to prove their capabilities without her.
Because Teekl, Vandal Savage, Dove, and Child who are the LOC here would struggle to destroy a gas station without amps and/or Unkindness, let alone whole universes.
It also doesn’t say because of their capacity for destruction, but because destruction is in their nature.

And 7 deadly sins aren’t universe wipers either. Not even remotely close— we even saw one struggling to put down human Teth and one getting manhandled by Batman.

So who was doing the lifting here?

There’s only one character among them we know even before upgrades is capable of affecting the multiverse.

Sorry I’m at work typing from my phone now, so I can’t be as elaborate or upload much in the way of scans now and responses will be far between.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Lolwut? Where did you get that?

Mephisto gathered his variants from every universe in the multiverse and there were 615 other Mephistos:

https://imgur.com/MBmYPEi

https://imgur.com/Dg1GusA

Mephisto tasked Doom with leading the Multiversal Masters of Evil in reshaping the timeline of every Earth in the multiversal and said to leave Earth 616 till last:

https://imgur.com/4o297cG

After every other Earth in the multiverse has been altered and as agreed Earth 616 is left as the last one to tackle, it is declared to be the 616th Earth to fall:

https://imgur.com/NREWnJ9

In Aarons 5yr Avengers run, the multiverse was retconned to have 616 universes.

How long this remains in place wo knows, however it is the current state of affairs.

Originally posted by abhilegend
No, they reset timeline of 615 Earths. No universes.

You cannot be this stupid? You did not just embarrass yourself like this? 😱

Everything within a reality is a part of that realities timeline. Any significant change to an event has a ripple effect that can result in an altered timeline.

Thats why time travellers are told to limit their interactions for fear of altering the timeline.

Legion killing Professor Xavier in 616 resulted in the Age of Apocalypse reality.

That Earth based event between one Earth based team of mutants spiralled out 1st effecting the history of the entire universe due to the X-mens intergalactic presence and interactions in the main reality and then nearly ended up destroying the entire multiverse as Jean never became Phoenix in that reality so never repaired the M'kraan crystal.

https://imgur.com/afBqAua

Cyclops deciding not to continue as an X-men resulted in the Here Comes Tomorrow reality

https://imgur.com/0cjeL0T

https://imgur.com/BbKbWnQ

A reality that was so damaged it had to be severed from the multiverse by Jean to protect the rest of reality:

https://imgur.com/5oovkFC

https://imgur.com/B3rPbU6

Alll of those universal ramifications stemming from Cyclops decision to abandon the X-men. An Earth based decision, resulting in a new reality.

So with such commonly known and documented huge universal changes, from simple Earth based decisions, you really thought that wiping out Earths 1st superheroes who protect the entire planet in its infancy would have no impact beyond Earth, with the intergalactic interactions and cosmic significance Earth has in a universe? Lunacy 🙄

You then have the What If series that documents explicitly how alterations to events on Earth can result in entirely new realities with new reality designations.

How did this not come to mind? This is Marvel basics. Why are you coming in here with an arrogant, dismissive attitude when you stumble on elementary stuff? 😕 Be humble. Read and learn. Ahead of that, leave it to those who demonstrably know what theyre talking about. 😬

Just to further cement my point, here are the Goddesses of Thunder travelling through the Superflow, the space between universes and noticing its in flux because entire realities are being rewritten by the Multiversal Masters of Evils attacks on each Earths Avengers of the past:

https://imgur.com/XSHZOfP

https://imgur.com/8jZDnH2

They further comment that the Multiversal Masters activities have universal ramifications:

https://imgur.com/4mWEM0k

Again, the writer confirms in a summary that the villains activities have impacted entire universes:

https://imgur.com/ABK8bM2

Again its revealed that the Multiversal Masters of Evils activities affected the entire universe those Earths belonged to and it was Mephistos plan all along to capitalize on these changes by absorbing the energies released:

https://imgur.com/wKNosTr

Originally posted by abhilegend
😂

You're delusional.

And youre a donut.

A bottom rung debater with an arrogance and pride unbefitting of your skill and knowledge. 😬

Originally posted by Juntai
You might have got me on the pieces of realms part, I think. I’ll have to look again, As there is definitely pieces of heaven and hell and everything in the tower as well. I’ll give you that one.

You still have to reconcile who she was at the end of the story. She destroyed and absorbed the Omniverse. All of time and tide, all threads of existence. She was the end. So, yes, she went place to place at the beginning eventually she devoured all. She had the power of the Omniverse.

Also, to give the the LOC and 7 Sins credit for it, you’d have to prove their capabilities without her.
Because Teekl, Vandal Savage, Dove, and Child who are the LOC here would struggle to destroy a gas station without amps and/or Unkindness, let alone whole universes.
It also doesn’t say because of their capacity for destruction, but because destruction is in their nature.

And 7 deadly sins aren’t universe wipers either. Not even remotely close— we even saw one struggling to put down human Teth and one getting manhandled by Batman.

So who was doing the lifting here?

There’s only one character among them we know even before upgrades is capable of affecting the multiverse.

Sorry I’m at work typing from my phone now, so I can’t be as elaborate or upload much in the way of scans now and responses will be far between.

Youve got to remember that this is an alternate future. Its 800+ years after the present so the characters have clearly gone through development. You cant simply look at who they are in the present and apply those parameters to their future, unknown and unquantified selves:

https://imgur.com/jJvrhMW

Teekl is no longer just Klarions cat looking familiar he now looks like a full on tiger lol, he devoured Klarion and replaced him as a Lord of Chaos.

Dove is now not simply an agent of the Lords of Order she has ascended to being an actual Lord of Chaos and with that you'd expect their to be a power upgrade.

Vandal has now ascended to becoming a Lord of Chaos getting the requisite power upgrades that come with that station.

So whilst we dont know how powerful this version of the Lords of Chaos is, the inference is that like their main reality counterparts, they are each as individuals, a significant cosmic power.

As for the 7 Deadly Sins, theyre no doubt the bottom rung minions who just attack the resistance whilst its Unkindness and the LOC doing the actual reality destruction which ties into Phantom Strangers comments only highlighting the LOCs involvement in that respect with no mention of the 7DS.

In terms of reconciliation, you can only do that with quantifiable feats. We dont know what she wouldve been capable of in the end. Neither does Black Adam. He was transported through time so is unaware of events past a certain point. He used present tense when describing the Unkindness' destruction of reality denoting that up until the point he was transported, it was a work in progress and thats what we saw in the final battle as well. Multiple dimensions were still left ravaged but intact outside the Tower and inside the tower salvaged parts and beings were being attacked but it hadnt actually reached a conclusion by the time he was sent back to the past.

However he clearly thinks theres no hope for his time as he refers to his future as dead and Unkindness as "The End"

Regardless, we just cant quantify or debate with a state that was never shown in the comics (her after having destroyed everything) a state that has zero feats in the comic. So thats pretty much that.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Mephisto gathered his variants from every universe in the multiverse and there were 615 other Mephistos:

https://imgur.com/MBmYPEi

https://imgur.com/Dg1GusA

Mephisto tasked Doom with leading the Multiversal Masters of Evil in reshaping the timeline of every Earth in the multiversal and said to leave Earth 616 till last:

https://imgur.com/4o297cG

After every other Earth in the multiverse has been altered and as agreed Earth 616 is left as the last one to tackle, it is declared to be the 616th Earth to fall:

https://imgur.com/NREWnJ9

In Aarons 5yr Avengers run, the multiverse was retconned to have 616 universes.

How long this remains in place wo knows, however it is the current state of affairs.

This is both hilarious and nonsensical. Aaron has referenced infinite multiverse several times

You cannot be this stupid? You did not just embarrass yourself like this? 😱

Read the scans, you absolute goon.

Everything within a reality is a part of that realities timeline. Any significant change to an event has a ripple effect that can result in an altered timeline.

Thats why time travellers are told to limit their interactions for fear of altering the timeline.

Legion killing Professor Xavier in 616 resulted in the Age of Apocalypse reality.

That Earth based event between one Earth based team of mutants spiralled out 1st effecting the history of the entire universe due to the X-mens intergalactic presence and interactions in the main reality and then nearly ended up destroying the entire multiverse as Jean never became Phoenix in that reality so never repaired the M'kraan crystal.

https://imgur.com/afBqAua

Cyclops deciding not to continue as an X-men resulted in the Here Comes Tomorrow reality

https://imgur.com/0cjeL0T

https://imgur.com/BbKbWnQ

A reality that was so damaged it had to be severed from the multiverse by Jean to protect the rest of reality:

https://imgur.com/5oovkFC

https://imgur.com/B3rPbU6

Alll of those universal ramifications stemming from Cyclops decision to abandon the X-men. An Earth based decision, resulting in a new reality.

So with such commonly known and documented huge universal changes, from simple Earth based decisions, you really thought that wiping out Earths 1st superheroes who protect the entire planet in its infancy would have no impact beyond Earth, with the intergalactic interactions and cosmic significance Earth has in a universe? Lunacy 🙄

You then have the What If series that documents explicitly how alterations to events on Earth can result in entirely new realities with new reality designations.

How did this not come to mind? This is Marvel basics. Why are you coming in here with an arrogant, dismissive attitude when you stumble on elementary stuff? 😕 Be humble. Read and learn. Ahead of that, leave it to those who demonstrably know what theyre talking about. 😬

Just to further cement my point, here are the Goddesses of Thunder travelling through the Superflow, the space between universes and noticing its in flux because entire realities are being rewritten by the Multiversal Masters of Evils attacks on each Earths Avengers of the past:

https://imgur.com/XSHZOfP

https://imgur.com/8jZDnH2

They further comment that the Multiversal Masters activities have universal ramifications:

https://imgur.com/4mWEM0k

Again, the writer confirms in a summary that the villains activities have impacted entire universes:

https://imgur.com/ABK8bM2

Again its revealed that the Multiversal Masters of Evils activities affected the entire universe those Earths belonged to and it was Mephistos plan all along to capitalize on these changes by absorbing the energies released:

https://imgur.com/wKNosTr

The scan flat out says 615 Earth's historians need to be changed, not universes. This is why I say you're delusional.

Its simply reversing the Domino effect masters of evil started, nothing more.

And youre a donut.

A bottom rung debater with an arrogance and pride unbefitting of your skill and knowledge. 😬

😂

Again, childish tantrums galore.

This is your retort? You are so rubbish 😆

Originally posted by abhilegend
This is both hilarious and nonsensical. Aaron has referenced infinite multiverse several times

And yet multiple times in his latest Marvel work he has defined the multiverse as being composed of 616 universes. A retcon supercedes whats come before. Engage that brain before you speak. ✅

Originally posted by abhilegend
he scan flat out says 615 Earth's historians need to be changed, not universes. This is why I say you're delusional.

The Earths timeline is a part of the universes timeline. Are you seriously telling me you believe everything in Marvel has its own individual, isolated timeline? Do you really believe that? 😱 😂

Are you really saying that if you travelled back in time to Earths ancient past that the rest of the universe wouldnt also be at that same ancient point in time? 😱 According to your wackiness Earth is somehow a part of the 616 universe yet also on its own isolated timeline? Is that actually what youre gonna publicly say? 😆

If that was the case then explain What Ifs. Why does a change in an Earth based decision result in an entirely new divergent universe? This is a well documented phenomena in Marvel. You cant make a large change to history without effecting the universe, hence why the Multiversal Masters activities were stated multiple times to have had universal ramifications and to have resulted in the relevant universes being rewritten:

https://imgur.com/XSHZOfP

https://imgur.com/8jZDnH2

https://imgur.com/4mWEM0k

The Earths were where the altered events took place. Thats why the reference is to the Earths needing to be changed. However as clearly shown within said comic, the activities of the multiversal masters of Evils rewrote the entire universe of said Earths, which is understandable given Earth and its heroes are a significant cosmic player. Take them off the board and then of course its going to create wholesale change in a reality.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Its simply reversing the Domino effect masters of evil started, nothing more.

What you seem to be unable to process is that simply altering history and undoing the deaths of the ancient Avengers in every universe whilst that would've returned those realities to how they were originally meant to be, it also would've erased the assembled multiversal Avengers who were the result of those altered histories:

https://imgur.com/UN725FX

https://imgur.com/uSy1N2l

So Phoenix and Starbrand had to not only undo the killing of each universes ancient avengers, but somehow manage and alter the resultant changes those adjustments would've created throughout the timeline, to somehow keep the multiversal Avengers in existence despite the events that created them in the 1st place no longer existing within the timeline. A monumental feat of simultaneous time and reality manipulation. 🙂

Youve conveniently neglected to quote and respond to all the individual points and evidence that you cant counter or explain away and have just posted some throwaway nonsense thats easily rubbished. Youre a joke of a debater.

Abhi just hush. Youre a traumatised opponent who engages me in debate out of a misguided vendetta youre pursuing by your lonesome 🙁 Out here putting up nonsense, incoherent, indefensible opposition because you remain mad that I absolutely ate you up 2 years ago 😆