Orion (grounded) vs. Aquaman

Originally posted by -Pr-
What I'm saying is that Arthur doesn't need to be compared to Maxima or Diana. His feats stand up on their own. As do Orion's.

Anyone who uses fights with Superman as ABC logic to prove how great Orion is, is just as bad as anyone trying to downplay Aquaman.

I don't mind people using fights to help their argument, but this thread is turning in to "Is Arthur Diana's equal", which is not what it's supposed to be.

And yes, the weird lowballing has to stop too. Of both character on the board.

Appreciate the explanation. I think to some extent fights help determine where a character stands in the universe and I’d agree with anyone who said Orion is a peer to Superman. I don’t think their on par physically but I think there peers while I think by consistency at this point Aquaman and Diana are peers.

Scaling gets wacky as hell though and Abhilegend had a point on the Batman thing on the fact that based off fights Batman has been in we could legitimately argue Batman as a teambuster who can take on teams consisting of high tiers. My issue though is that’s not the intent for Batman who is consistently treated as a street level character whereas Aquaman has been stated and shown multiple times over to be peers with Diana and regarded as one of the strongest people on the planet. I don’t get why anyone has an issue with that at this point since it’s been pretty consistent for the last 10 years.

https://m.imgur.com/PmaR71A

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11124/111244877/7863913-9d9f7680-f21b-4ea3-921f-3c3f34974bc9.jpeg

I don’t think statements are the end all say all in a versus debate but I do think they help paint a picture alongside personal feats and scaling. Which Aquaman has all that. The idea that Orion oneshots Aquaman is what initially bothered me though and based off the fights Aquaman has had against other characters, the level Aquaman is regarded in and his own personal feats I’d question the idea of Orion doing such a thing.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Appreciate the explanation. I think to some extent fights help determine where a character stands in the universe and I’d agree with anyone who said Orion is a peer to Superman. I don’t think their on par physically but I think there peers while I think by consistency at this point Aquaman and Diana are peers.

Scaling gets wacky as hell though and Abhilegend had a point on the Batman thing on the fact that based off fights Batman has been in we could legitimately argue Batman as a teambuster who can take on teams consisting of high tiers. My issue though is that’s not the intent for Batman who is consistently treated as a street level character whereas Aquaman has been stated and shown multiple times over to be peers with Diana and regarded as one of the strongest people on the planet. I don’t get why anyone has an issue with that at this point since it’s been pretty consistent for the last 10 years.

https://m.imgur.com/PmaR71A

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11124/111244877/7863913-9d9f7680-f21b-4ea3-921f-3c3f34974bc9.jpeg

I don’t think statements are the end all say all in a versus debate but I do think they help paint a picture alongside personal feats and scaling. Which Aquaman has all that. The idea that Orion oneshots Aquaman is what initially bothered me though and based off the fights Aquaman has had against other characters, the level Aquaman is regarded in and his own personal feats I’d question the idea of Orion doing such a thing.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Appreciate the explanation. I think to some extent fights help determine where a character stands in the universe and I’d agree with anyone who said Orion is a peer to Superman. I don’t think their on par physically but I think there peers while I think by consistency at this point Aquaman and Diana are peers.

Scaling gets wacky as hell though and Abhilegend had a point on the Batman thing on the fact that based off fights Batman has been in we could legitimately argue Batman as a teambuster who can take on teams consisting of high tiers. My issue though is that’s not the intent for Batman who is consistently treated as a street level character whereas Aquaman has been stated and shown multiple times over to be peers with Diana and regarded as one of the strongest people on the planet. I don’t get why anyone has an issue with that at this point since it’s been pretty consistent for the last 10 years.

https://m.imgur.com/PmaR71A

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11124/111244877/7863913-9d9f7680-f21b-4ea3-921f-3c3f34974bc9.jpeg

I don’t think statements are the end all say all in a versus debate but I do think they help paint a picture alongside personal feats and scaling. Which Aquaman has all that. The idea that Orion oneshots Aquaman is what initially bothered me though and based off the fights Aquaman has had against other characters, the level Aquaman is regarded in and his own personal feats I’d question the idea of Orion doing such a thing.

Philo did a really nice post a while back, where he laid out a bunch of Aquaman related stuff. I can't seem to find it but if I manage, I'll link it here.

Originally posted by abhilegend
That handbook essentially says Aquaman is stronger than Superman underwater. What a bunch of nonsense.

No it doesn’t. It states none are truly his equal underwater. That doesn’t mean he’s physically more powerful underwater. Or that he’s unbeatable it just implies that none match his overall might underwater.

That brings in his versatility, his ability to bring in sea monsters to aid him, his healing factor, stamina boost and regeneration water gives him on top of his physicals that rival Diana.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Philo did a really nice post a while back, where he laid out a bunch of Aquaman related stuff. I can't seem to find it but if I manage, I'll link it here.

I definitely would be interested in seeing that. Have you seen the Justice Society movie? Aquaman was hella impressive in that. Wasn’t big on what they did with his trident but overall physically he was massively impressive.

A psy bolt is a telepathic attack you were claiming telepathy doesn’t work on Orion and I’ve yet to see what showing for Orion to even justify that claim. Maxima even in the scan states despite how much brawn Orion has, his mental defenses are weak.

But that's just it, it's not a telepathic attach. It's forming mental energy into an energy bolt. Maxima has used PSY bolts to blast objects, that don't have any brain to be affected by telepathy.

http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj364/galanphotobook/maxima_superman6.jpg

Is that a telepathic attack? Because that is a psy bolt. It's a power Arthur has never demonstrated. There are multiple instances of her psy bolts damaging inanimate objects or taking out machines. These things aren't affected by TP.

Psylock have used her psi blades (a similar type of thing- energy formed from mental energy) to cut things, interrupted electronics.

http://imgur.com/GAYFCgi

Just because a person has TP doesn't make every attack they make telepathic. Maxima also has TK.

X=/=Y

For any other new God there are heaps of feats for a mother box, for Orion there aren't because his MB is literally devoted to keeping his rational mind in control. OT contains his dog of war rage. It doesn't do anything else but maintain his mental state. We're talking about a device capable of SS level matter and energy manip but for Orion its that devoted to maintaining his mental control.

Additionally the use of METRON also doesn't work. When he was a New God to the best of.my knowledge he never had a MB, he made his mobious chair instead which has a lot of functions an MB doesnt

These comparisons just don't work

Originally posted by beatboks
But that's just it, it's not a telepathic attach. It's forming mental energy into an energy bolt. Maxima has used PSY bolts to blast objects, that don't have any brain to be affected by telepathy.

http://i553.photobucket.com/albums/jj364/galanphotobook/maxima_superman6.jpg

Is that a telepathic attack? Because that is a psy bolt. It's a power Arthur has never demonstrated. There are multiple instances of her psy bolts damaging inanimate objects or taking out machines. These things aren't affected by TP.

Psylock have used her psi blades (a similar type of thing- energy formed from mental energy) to cut things, interrupted electronics.

http://imgur.com/GAYFCgi

Just because a person has TP doesn't make every attack they make telepathic. Maxima also has TK.

X=/=Y

For any other new God there are heaps of feats for a mother box, for Orion there aren't because his MB is literally devoted to keeping his rational mind in control. OT contains his dog of war rage. It doesn't do anything else but maintain his mental state. We're talking about a device capable of SS level matter and energy manip but for Orion its that devoted to maintaining his mental control.

Additionally the use of METRON also doesn't work. When he was a New God to the best of.my knowledge he never had a MB, he made his mobious chair instead which has a lot of functions an MB doesnt

These comparisons just don't work

Maxima also has TK what I’m going off of is what she said in the scan Im confused on how you’re pointing out the difference in her using her psy bolts like the scans support what you’re saying.

The scan you posted show her physically destroying something with a psy bolt the scan I posted or brought up had her suggest despite Orion’s physical might he can’t stand a “psychic assault”

So if she was commenting on despite his physicals him being weak to a psychic assault why would we assume she attacked him with an attack to physically harm him..?

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11124/111244877/7936516-49b05a6d-96cb-41d4-9eed-99fc72c755f1.jpeg

This is your original claim by the way

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11124/111244877/7936518-e83a125b-1d63-4e22-ba01-64979a9ff2c7.jpeg

You honestly wouldn’t define a psychic assault as a mental attack..? There practically synonyms and we see Orion grasping his head in a panel later.

Let’s not forget another New God Metron.. who in the same issue got assaulted by a mental attack.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11124/111244877/7936515-433c61fb-0f2e-489d-8239-7934d49df4c4.jpeg

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11124/111244877/7936519-bc1ed228-a634-42bf-81b4-e52b4ed2faf9.jpeg

Yet somehow these New Gods can’t be effected by mental attacks...

Hell let’s one up it and bring Orion back in the picture..

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11124/111244877/7936517-f0f4302d-c13c-49f2-9847-d9ab75a4b3fc.jpeg

You’ve yet to even provide a feat to justify your claim of TP not doing jack to Orion... for all I know even if your mother box claim is true Orion doesn’t use the device in such a way clearly given his mental has been invaded and assaulted more times in this thread at the very least so far then he’s been able to prevent.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
No it doesn’t. It states none are truly his equal underwater. That doesn’t mean he’s physically more powerful underwater. Or that he’s unbeatable it just implies that none match his overall might underwater.

That brings in his versatility, his ability to bring in sea monsters to aid him, his healing factor, stamina boost and regeneration water gives him on top of his physicals that rival Diana.

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
Maxima also has TK what I’m going off of is what she said in the scan Im confused on how you’re pointing out the difference in her using her psy bolts like the scans support what you’re saying.

The scan you posted show her physically destroying something with a psy bolt the scan I posted or brought up had her suggest despite Orion’s physical might he can’t stand a “psychic assault”

So if she was commenting on despite his physicals him being weak to a psychic assault why would we assume she attacked him with an attack to physically harm him..?

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11124/111244877/7936516-49b05a6d-96cb-41d4-9eed-99fc72c755f1.jpeg

This is your original claim by the way

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11124/111244877/7936518-e83a125b-1d63-4e22-ba01-64979a9ff2c7.jpeg

You honestly wouldn’t define a psychic assault as a mental attack..? There practically synonyms and we see Orion grasping his head in a panel later.

Let’s not forget another New God Metron.. who in the same issue got assaulted by a mental attack.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11124/111244877/7936515-433c61fb-0f2e-489d-8239-7934d49df4c4.jpeg

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11124/111244877/7936519-bc1ed228-a634-42bf-81b4-e52b4ed2faf9.jpeg

Yet somehow these New Gods can’t be effected by mental attacks...

Hell let’s one up it and bring Orion back in the picture..

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11124/111244877/7936517-f0f4302d-c13c-49f2-9847-d9ab75a4b3fc.jpeg

You’ve yet to even provide a feat to justify your claim of TP not doing jack to Orion... for all I know even if your mother box claim is true Orion doesn’t use the device in such a way clearly given his mental has been invaded and assaulted more times in this thread at the very least so far then he’s been able to prevent.

Your reading comprehension is really poor it seems.

Aquaman has the physical to compete with (though obviously not to match) Orion and his Trident should definitely be able to hurt him. The real question is whether or not he can use it to take him down before Orion takes that trident and shoves it where the sun doesn't shine. My money's on Orion for a solid 7/10 that's hard won every time

Originally posted by abhilegend
Are you suggesting Aquaman would win against Superman underwater?

PING PING PING PING PING PING PING

Originally posted by abhilegend
That handbook essentially says Aquaman is stronger than Superman underwater. What a bunch of nonsense.

Do you... do you not know what a literary device is?

Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
I definitely would be interested in seeing that. Have you seen the Justice Society movie? Aquaman was hella impressive in that. Wasn’t big on what they did with his trident but overall physically he was massively impressive.

I haven't watched it yet. Might do tonight actually as I'm not working tomorrow. I didn't even know he was in it tbh. No spoilers please.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Your reading comprehension is really poor it seems.

Stones. Glass houses.

You honestly wouldn’t define a psychic assault as a mental attack..? There practically synonyms and we see Orion grasping his head in a panel later.

NO I wouldn't because psychic, psionic etc refers to a larger spectrum. It encompasses telepathy but isn't limited to it. Psionic refers to of the mind or the SOUL and can even refer to just the paranormal. Even saying a mental assault doesn't make it telepathy. As there are other forms of mental attacks. Many characters with mental powers have psionic attacks that aren't telepathic in nature.

Arthur has never shown an attack of this nature at all. The closest he has shown was inducing seizures in white Martians. Now THAT might actually be a viable attack for him to use vs Orion as it isnt trying to telepathically control Orion so wouldnt be something his MB has been dedicated to fighting. That attack may give Arthur the occasional win out of 10. That however isn't what your arguing for. Given its an attack that Arthur has used once in almost 4000 appearances its far from a go to move.

A psychic can sense and talk to dead spirits can Arthur? But that's psychic so it must mean TP right?! OH I guess not.

Orion's mother box has literally dedicated all its source energy to maintain Orion's rational self control.

Let’s not forget another New God Metron.. who in the same issue got assaulted by a mental attack

What protects new gods from Tp is a mother box. I never said protects from mental attacks because they can be different than TP, your making an unsupportable linkbetween the two. I've also already explained that Metron has NEVER possessed a mother box. He has the mobius chair.

https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Mobius_Chair
https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Mother_Box

They don't have the same capabilities, an MB has TP, emotion control and healing that the mobius chair doesn't.

The denizens of Apokalips don't have MB's and they cab be tp dominated by Darksied, yet he hasn't been able to do so to New Genisis. DS could TP dominate all of Daxam but has never done so to his enemy state.

In any case since apparently you can't see the very real differences between to two I think I'll leave the topic as PR has asked we stop going off topic

I realise this is going to make me sound a tad pedantic, but...

Aquaman has at least one other psionic attack that isn't just "simple" telepathy: When he devolved King Shark. Then there's all The Clear bullshit, as I don't know how you'd rate that.

Strength wise, his best one right now is the submarine throwing feat, the math of which would give someone an anyeurism. It's a heavy outlier, sure, but it does drag his average up a bit at the same time, I would argue.

High enough to beat Orion in a punch-up? Probably not. But enough to make him at least take a few shots before going down.

If only DC would bite the bullet and make him a proper sorcerer, as opposed to just hinting at it, he'd be more formidable in fights like this as I don't think he can stand up to the Astro Force for very long.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Do you... do you not know what a literary device is?

I haven't watched it yet. Might do tonight actually as I'm not working tomorrow. I didn't even know he was in it tbh. No spoilers please.

Stones. Glass houses.

What's with the snide comments out of nowhere?

Originally posted by abhilegend
???

What's with the snide comments out of nowhere?

It isn't snide. It was straightforward. There's a difference.

And it wasn't out of nowhere. You're making an issue out of something that isn't there.

this thread is turning into a classic.... 😂

making aquaman a full on magic user would be a great move. he seems to be getting more love the last couple years than he ever has. i think they've officially taken him out of the 'he's the guy that talks to fish' role people used to lump him in. he's a very good character with lots of potential left. not all the 'old school' characters can say that i don't think.

Originally posted by leonidas
this thread is turning into a classic.... 😂

making aquaman a full on magic user would be a great move. he seems to be getting more love the last couple years than he ever has. i think they've officially taken him out of the 'he's the guy that talks to fish' role people used to lump him in. he's a very good character with lots of potential left. not all the 'old school' characters can say that i don't think.

😂

sorry pr. 😮