Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yes but he still needs to 'start'. To register that the figurative (or maybe literal?) bell has rung signifying the start of the battle. OP has specified no action or prep takes place before this bell rings - so the Omniscient would start at the exact same time as the Omnipotent.
It is the "omnipotent" who has to "react to the bell", not the omniscient one.
Originally posted by Magnon
Lets say the combatants are instantly materialized on the battle field at t = 0. You insist that the "omniscient" becomes truly omniscient only at t = 0 + reaction time. Whereas I postulate that the omniscient is omniscient already at t = 0.It is the "omnipotent" who has to "react to the bell", not the omniscient one.
But they still need to make a move. t=0, they 'know' the best course of action is to say 'die', then they still need to act on said course of action. I laid it out:
Between him thinking 'ill say die' and actually saying it, not to mention the speed of sound for the command to travel, plus the reaction time of the target to react to the verbal command 'die', not to mention the actual time it takes to vocalise the word 'die'.....
T=0, Omniscient thinks 'to win, I'll say die'. This actual action isn't instant, the thought process still has to travel to his mouth muscles etc, then he has to enunciate the actual word. Then the sound has to travel to the omnipotent, who then has to register that the omniscient said it.
T=0, Omnipotent thinks 'die'. Omniscient....dies.
This ignores the fallacy that the omnipotent one has to 'engage' his powers.
If he is truly omnipotent, and nothing is beyond him, then he is also immune to anything and everything that will be thrown at him. His speed, his reactions, his durability, they would all be infinite. His willpower to resist, hell, even his mind would be impossible to control. Fantomex could stop mind-control, by swapping control between his three brains. An omnipotent could have infinite brains to swap control between, constantly, whilst operating at the speed of light (or more).
T=0, he instantly stops having a mind that works under human limits of speed and resistance. The ALE can be stopped by Hope/Freedom - an omnipotent would have infinite amounts of both. It can be negated by the SpeedForce - the omnipotent would also have this.
So match starts, and before the first syllable is out of the omniscient's mouth, he's dead.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But they still need to make a move. t=0, they 'know' the best course of action is to say 'die', then they still need to act on said course of action. I laid it out:T=0, Omniscient thinks 'to win, I'll say die'. This actual action isn't instant, the thought process still has to travel to his mouth muscles etc, then he has to enunciate the actual word. Then the sound has to travel to the omnipotent, who then has to register that the omniscient said it.
T=0, Omnipotent thinks 'die'. Omniscient....dies.
However, having checked the standard vs battle conditions I realize I've been wrong about the starting distance. I thought it was 50 meters, which would be short enough for the omniscient's verbal command to reach the "omnipotent" before he can react. Instead, the default starting distance is 500 meters, so it would take ca. 1.5 s for sound to travel across it. The "omnipotent" most likely could react and think "die" within that time frame.
Therefore, I concede that sound based attacks under default battle conditions would not be enough for the omniscient to win.
Originally posted by Magnon
Since we are assuming that the "omnipotent's" mind works in a normal human fashion, he cannot think 'die' at t = 0. Once the starting bell rings it takes him a normal human reaction time to even recognize that the fight has started; and that occurs around t = 250 ms assuming a typical human. Then another 250 ms to decide a course of action. Whereas the omniscient's mind would send neural signals to his mouth and tongue muscles immediately at t = 0, and those signals would reach the muscles at ca. t = 4 ms, signifying the start of forming the words.However, having checked the standard vs battle conditions I realize I've been wrong about the starting distance. I thought it was 50 meters, which would be short enough for the omniscient's verbal command to reach the "omnipotent" before he can react. Instead, the default starting distance is 500 meters, so it would take ca. 1.5 s for sound to travel across it. The "omnipotent" most likely could react and think "die" within that time frame.
Therefore, I concede that sound based attacks under default battle conditions would not be enough for the omniscient to win.
Plus you assumed the omnipotent is actually just a normal guy. When he is in fact, omnipotent.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Plus you assumed the omnipotent is actually just a normal guy. When he is in fact, omnipotent.
Originally posted by Magnon
That assumption was implied already in the OP, and if you look back at my posts I've always assumed that the "omnipotent" is not truly omnipotent but that his mind works in a normal human fashion (at least initially, until he has time to amp it).
OP said he has true omnipotence.
Which means he has superspeed and durability. Juggernaut doesn't have to think 'bulletproof powers, activate!!'. They are already immune.
T=0, he has superspeed.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
OP said he has true omnipotence.Which means he has superspeed and durability. Juggernaut doesn't have to think 'bulletproof powers, activate!!'. They are already immune.
T=0, he has superspeed.
Thus, the "omnipotent" the OP was talking about cannot be truly omnipotent because he's not omniscient. We would need to know the details of how his "non-omniscience" is achieved. My arguments have always assumed that his mind works initially in a normal human fashion, which he can then amp if he so wishes (and has the time for it).
It wouldn't make any sense for the OP to pit a true omnipotent (which includes omniscience) against someone who is "only" omniscient. That's trivial.
Originally posted by Magnon
You can't have true omnipotence without omniscience. A true omnipotent would have a brain that works infinitely fast with infinite capacity, and he would have senses that sense everything instantly anywhere in the past, present and future. That is omniscience.Thus, the "omnipotent" the OP was talking about cannot be truly omnipotent because he's not omniscient. We would need to know the details of how his "non-omniscience" is achieved. My arguments have always assumed that his mind works initially in a normal human fashion, which he can then amp if he so wishes (and has the time for it).
It wouldn't make any sense for the OP to pit a true omnipotent (which includes omniscience) against someone who is "only" omniscient. That's trivial.
It is indeed trivial.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It is indeed trivial.
The OP's expression "true omnipotent (absent omniscience)" is an oxymoron so we are free to interpret its meaning as long as the OP does not specify it further.
Originally posted by LordGod
Just to clarify my intent;In this thread there is no prep or extra resources of any kind. It's just one person who has fully mastered omniscience, and another person who has fully mastered omnipotence.
The only stipulation is that the omnipotent person cannot will themself to become omniscient here.
This was the clarification.
Fully mastered.
Originally posted by Magnon
That doesn't clarify anything. It's still an oxymoron.
How?
It states he can't 'will' omniscience to himself.
Which is fine. He just has it. Just like Juggernaut doesn't 'will' his durability into effect, he just has it. Superman doesn't 'will' his superspeed reflexes, they are by their nature reflexive.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
How?It states he can't 'will' omniscience to himself.
Which is fine. He just has it. Just like Juggernaut doesn't 'will' his durability into effect, he just has it. Superman doesn't 'will' his superspeed reflexes, they are by their nature reflexive.
Regardless, I was always very clear in my posts that that's not the scenario I was talking about. Not much point in discussing trivialities, clearly omnipotent & omniscient > omniscient. This I said (implicitly) already in my first post Feb 14th, 2022 05:12 PM.
Plus, we both agree sound based attacks are not the way to go. Which is what I (also implicitly) said on the 14th of Feb - that he still needs to fire it off, as it were, and before he could complete his command, the omnipotent would still be faster.
But yes, agreed, it was a trivial (if diverting enough, at least for me) debate. Beatboks and Stoic tried to argue that the omniscient would give himself powers, or have extra prep/materiel ready, you tried to argue the ALE (which, to give you credit, would ordinarily be a smart move) but tried smooshing and conflating various versions of the ALE (I *think* the latest interpretation - and hence, the version used in forums - was that one needed to recite the long equation, plus one needed to have DS in existence etc etc), and now h1 is trying to argue based on his own stupidity, so I dunno....it seems that omnipotence is more useful in a forum fight.
I mean, we could have it so the omnipotent guy has processing speed equal to Wally at his fastest, or perhaps Jay Garrick - so not infinitely fast, but still super super fast. Thus, no omniscience, but still so fast he could run home and change his clothes and eat his dinner whilst reading every book in the library on the way home, before the omniscient guy can even get the first syllable out of his mouth.
After all, Superman is not omniscient. But he IS plenty fast.
So why assume the omnipotent is *only* limited to human level speeds? He/she could easily be Superman level in reaction and processing times, which would be far above that of the 'human level' omniscient.
Or have the omnipotent like Reverse Flash, in their own timeline. Or like Sentry, living a few seconds ahead in time. None of these guys are omniscient, none of them have infinite processing speed, all of them are far faster than a human.
Your logic is like me arguing from an assumption that the omniscient is a simple brain floating in a jar, with no hands/mouth etc. Full knowledge of everything in the universe, but no way to interact with it in any meaningful manner. That would be biased of me.
Originally posted by Bentley
Would you think an omniscient being is by nature an speedster since he needs to handle infinite amounts of information in essentially zero time?
I'd say he was in terms of processing information, but not in terms of things like limb movement. So it would be like a person playing a video game with terrible lag - you know what is going to happen, and what you need to do to prevent it, but your character would be too slow to actually move out of the way.
Or, say, like re-watching a film you've seen before. You know the Titanic is going to sink, but there is nothing you can do to prevent it.