Mass-removal of free will is only one of the features of ALE (this requires full, complete ALE). But even a partial ALE can grant an individual various kinds of powers, such as mind control (e.g. Empress and Pied Piper got powers from ALE). The omniscient dude would of course master all these sub-powers as well.
But he can't get any other powers as per OP.
Basically, for him to have a chance with the ALE he needs:
1. The ALE to exist as a concept
2. The will to use it
3. The ability to use it (especially if he wants to say anything out loud)
4. The OP to allow it when they specifically said no other powers (mind control etc being powers).
All before the opponent thinks 'die'. Or just negate it because they're omnipotent.
So to answer the OP, in a forum fight, omnipotence is more useful.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But he can't get any other powers as per OP.Basically, for him to have a chance with the ALE he needs:
1. The ALE to exist as a concept
2. The will to use it
3. The ability to use it (especially if he wants to say anything out loud)
4. The OP to allow it when they specifically said no other powers (mind control etc being powers).All before the opponent thinks 'die'. Or just negate it because they're omnipotent.
So to answer the OP, in a forum fight, omnipotence is more useful.
If omniscience alone can grant him powers then those powers are allowed, are they not? Your points 2. and 3. are irrelevant -- we can assume he'd be willing to use ALE if that is how he can win the fight, and omniscience would give him the ability to use it. Point 1. is valid, and -- as I said -- there are indeed plenty of scenarios where the omnipotent one would win. But, the OP leaves room for opposite scenarios as well (at least, until he specifies some details further).
That's the point I've tried to make: that there are certain situations where the omniscient guy would beat the "omnipotent" one. That doesn't mean I think omniscience would generally be more useful in a forum fight -- I don't.
By will I meant that in some depictions, you need willpower behind it. Just saying the ALE doesn't confer powers/ abilities on you.
By ability I meant the opportunity. If he can't even get the first syllable out before the other guy thinks 'die'....
By existence, I meant when I use the same interpretation as in your scan. It needs Darkseid to also exist, because all it does is prove mathematically that one should be a slave to Darkseid. If you read the ALE out in Marvel, or in Pride and Prejudice, or in the Fast and Furious verse, it won't work.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
By will I meant that in some depictions, you need willpower behind it. Just saying the ALE doesn't confer powers/ abilities on you.
By ability I meant the opportunity. If he can't even get the first syllable out before the other guy thinks 'die'....
By existence, I meant when I use the same interpretation as in your scan. It needs Darkseid to also exist, because all it does is prove mathematically that one should be a slave to Darkseid. If you read the ALE out in Marvel, or in Pride and Prejudice, or in the Fast and Furious verse, it won't work.
Originally posted by Magnon
And in some (most?) depictions knowledge of the equation is enough. I mean, it's an equation. If I were to calculate the length of the hypotenuse of a right triangle by using the Pythagorean theorem it'd be enough for me to know the equation and how to use it. I don't have to pass any additional "will checks" for the equation to yield the correct answer.
Also, surely that makes no sense? If you knew the full equation, you have powers. You say it to me. I now know the equation. Then....why don't I counter enslave you? Or develop powers of my own?
Iow, there needs to be will behind it.
Sure, but in a scenario where the omniscient can fully harness ALE he could e.g. use its mind control feature (a la Empress) to delay the other guy until the full equation (and complete removal of free will) has been uttered. Maybe he could even recite the equation directly into the "omnipotent's" mind with TP.
Indeed, those requirements/conditions have to be fulfilled for it to work. I've pointed that out myself many times now.
Apologies, I misread your post.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Pythagorean theorem doesn't enable you to enslave others to your will, though.Also, surely that makes no sense? If you knew the full equation, you have powers. You say it to me. I now know the equation. Then....why don't I counter enslave you? Or develop powers of my own?
Iow, there needs to be will behind it.
That would again be additional powers. Even if it's a byproduct of the ALE, it's still additional powers. Moreover, the full equation only slaves them to Darkseid, not you.
One does not (typically) need any exceptional will to use ALE; it is an equation so its use is knowledge-based -- just like using any other equation. No more "will" is required than what the omnipotent guy needs to use his powers.
These powers are contained in ALE itself. An individual just needs to know the equation, or parts of it, and use it (assuming again that we are working within DCU context). In this case, knowledge *is* power. Westeros is in a different universe. 😛
Originally posted by Magnon
Different universes, different laws. In DCU, there's an equation for mind control / removal of free will. It's simply a metaphysical fact of that universe.One does not (typically) need any exceptional will to use ALE; it is an equation so its use is knowledge-based -- just like using any other equation. No more "will" is required than what the omnipotent guy needs to use his powers.
These powers are contained in ALE itself. An individual just needs to know the equation, or parts of it, and use it (assuming again that we are working within DCU context). In this case, knowledge *is* power. Westeros is in a different universe. 😛
It enslaves them to Darkseid. That's the ALE.
And if knowledge is all that's needed, then as per your scans' storyline, why didn't the world enslave each other?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It enslaves them to Darkseid. That's the ALE.And if knowledge is all that's needed, then as per your scans' storyline, why didn't the world enslave each other?
The omniscient one does not have to worry about becoming victim to ALE himself. He knows its counter, the Life Equation.
Originally posted by Magnonin
One version of ALE (different from the one from Stilt's scan) enslaves to Darkseid. Trivially, that version won't enslave ppl to each other -- since it enslaves them to Darkseid. Even that version might be enough for our omniscient. After all, the victim loses free will so he might just want to die for Darkseid (this is what the enslaved ppl were chanting in my scan).The omniscient one does not have to worry about becoming victim to ALE himself. He knows its counter, the Life Equation.
Moreover, they still retain their hatred etc.
WW when under the ALE wasn't a mindless robot.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
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It's the version you're using though. The one from your scan.Moreover, they still retain their hatred etc.
WW when under the ALE wasn't a mindless robot.
I used the word "might" in my previous post because without Darkseid actually being there who knows what the ALE-enslaved person would do, if anything. The original ALE, possessed by "Billion Dollar" Bates, would allow the omniscient one to enslave ppl directly to him so it would be more useful here (assuming it is allowed by OP).
Originally posted by Magnon
I'm not fixed to any particular version, it was just an example of invoking power via knowledge. Whatever works. What I'm saying is that:
(1) In some settings/universes, knowledge *is* power.
(2) In some settings/universes, this knowledge would allow the omniscient guy to defeat the "omnipotent" one.I used the word "might" in my previous post because without Darkseid actually being there who knows what the ALE-enslaved person would do, if anything. The original ALE, possessed by "Billion Dollar" Bates, would allow the omniscient one to enslave ppl directly to him so it would be more useful here (assuming it is allowed by OP).
He still needed to give vocal commands, and had no other powers conferred onto him by the ALE.
So if using that version, then the other guy would just think 'die'.
It would need to be a version not seen in comics, for it to be useful.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
He still needed to give vocal commands, and had no other powers conferred onto him by the ALE.So if using that version, then the other guy would just think 'die'.
It would need to be a version not seen in comics, for it to be useful.
Originally posted by Magnon
Not necessarily. The "omnipotent" has a mind that works in a normal human fashion (initially, at least). So he would first have to decide what he wants to do, then wish it to happen. Whereas the omniscient one would immediately know the best action. So which one is faster, the omnipotent's reaction time + decision-making + wishing the opponent to "die", or the omniscient's immediate verbal command "die"?
Vs the mental thought 'die'. Which would be at the speed of thought (which in comics is very fast), doesn't rely on the opponent's reaction speed, or time to vocalise etc.
Remember, both sides would know they're in a fight,and would be ready to fight at the drop of the bell. There's less of an advantage for the omniscient in terms of 'knowing what to do'.
Then there's also the fact that the omniscient will know what the outcome of this fight would be. Would they still fight if they knew they were going to lose? :-P
So in short, the omnipotent would still be faster. It's the difference between a telepath Vs someone like Zatanna.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The omniscient still has normal reaction times too.