Order these guys by speed

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because your arguments were baseless.

To go back to your 'joke' - let's say you were racing against Usain Bolt, over 100m.

You have the skills and knowledge of the racetrack. Bolt, alas, is blindfolded, and there are obstacles in the way. Race starts, and you win handily as poor Bolt trips over a banana peel or falls down a pit or whatever.

Who is faster? Bolt has raw speed on you, but you knew how to navigate the racetrack - you had the knowledge, the skills. The distance is 100m for both of you, you crossed it in 15 seconds whilst he took 30 (assuming he finishes it, lol). Are you going to seriously say that you are 2x faster than Bolt? No. Your knowledge bridged that gap.

Smurph gets what I am trying to say - what I have been saying from the start. I am [b]NOT saying OMG Batman is 1/100th lightspeed!!!

I am saying that the writer is using Batman's skills to bridge a gap in stats. IN-UNIVERSE, Batman does what he does, due to skills, his knowledge. Saying 'Oh, it makes no sense mathematically' is stupid. I can sit here with my knowledge of biology, and say 'DNA mutations enabling one to control the weather makes no sense, so all of Storm's feats are PIS', or 'gamma radiation just gives you cancer, not superstrength, so all of Hulk's feats are PIS', but that would be silly.

In comics, we suspend belief, especially when explanations are given, no matter how haphazard they can be. GLs can do what they do thanks to a central battery of emotionally powered light? Sure. A magical force surrounds all speedsters, enabling them to break physical laws? OK. Alien DNA allows you to shoot HV and fly? Why not.

Skills enable a slower/weaker character to keep up with faster/stronger characters? Indeed. The point I make, then, is that we recognise that without said skills, that character is slower/weaker. If you were bereft of your knowledge of the racetrack, you would be slower than Bolt.

It is about comparing like for like. [/B]

Your analogy fails. Batman moved a particular distance in a particular time (obstacles or not).

But Batman WAS 1/10 the speed of the HV in that scan. You can argue that the writer suspends skill to achieve such speeds. Whether he's 1/10 the speed of HV in a forum is up for debate.

Originally posted by h1a8
Your analogy fails. Batman moved a particular distance in a particular time (obstacles or not).

But Batman WAS 1/10 the speed of the HV in that scan. You can argue that the writer suspends skill to achieve such speeds. Whether he's 1/10 the speed of HV in a forum is up for debate.

HOWEVER, with that said - my point was that writers handwave it as 'Batman is just that skilled'. Hence, my position that writers use skill as a crutch to close gaps in stats.

And in this thread, we are debating stats.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's.... basically what I am arguing. In no way shape or form did I ever say that Batman was actually that fast - and in fact the very first time I mention it, I say it is PIS.

HOWEVER, with that said - my point was that writers handwave it as 'Batman is just that skilled'. Hence, my position that writers use skill as a crutch to close gaps in stats.

And in this thread, we are debating stats.

But you are not getting my point. Skill was used to obtain that amount of speed. It's in fiction EVERYWHERE.

Here are some examples
1) Beast from Kung Fu Hustle moves his hands FASTER than a bullet in order to catch it. Just a human.

2) Wade Wilson swings his sword faster than the speed of a bullet (just a human at that point)

3) Bruce Leroy closes his teeth faster than any human can to catch a bullet.

My original stance was the source of speed is irrelevant. It's all about movement speed.
The fact is can character A move faster than character B.

What even is this thread?

Wonder Woman has never said that Powergirl is faster than her, she just said that she is as fast as her with the possibility that she theoretically could be faster, and that happened in a fight where she was apparently jobbing unti near the end, and after she stopped jobbing she suddenly pretty much completely outclassed Powergirl, which also fits to the fact that Wonder Woman had better speed feats than Powergirl in general.

At best you could say Powergirl is just as fast as Wonder Woman, but even that is quite questionable.

Originally posted by GodofNature
What even is this thread?

Wonder Woman has never said that Powergirl is faster than her, she just said that she is as fast as her with the possibility that she theoretically could be faster, and that happened in a fight where she was apparently jobbing unti near the end, and after she stopped jobbing she suddenly pretty much completely outclassed Powergirl, which also fits to the fact that Wonder Woman had better speed feats than Powergirl in general.

At best you could say Powergirl is just as fast as Wonder Woman, but even that is quite questionable.

LOL @ jobbing and non jobbing in the same fight.

Originally posted by abhilegend
What speed feat does Diana has which are better than PG?

LOL @ jobbing and non jobbing in the same fight.

Have you read the fight? Wonder Woman literally needed to remember that she has combat skill, and after that pretty much washed Powergirl.

Originally posted by GodofNature
Powergirl's has not much to work with, one of her best speed feats is speeding around with Jesse Quick, while Wonder Woman doing the same, and later on catching up to a speeding Jesse Quick and catching her with her lasso as both had by an equal amount amped running speed are not her best speed feats.

She had to use backdraft of Jesse's speed trail to keep up with her. She didn't catch up with her, she used her lasso to hang on to her.

Have you even read these books?

Have you read the fight? Wonder Woman literally needed to remember that she has combat skill, and after that pretty much washed Powergirl.

You mean got her in a Nelson? Yeah, that'll show her who's faster.

Originally posted by h1a8
But you are not getting my point. Skill was used to obtain that amount of speed. It's in fiction EVERYWHERE.

Here are some examples
1) Beast from Kung Fu Hustle moves his hands FASTER than a bullet in order to catch it. Just a human.

2) Wade Wilson swings his sword faster than the speed of a bullet (just a human at that point)

3) Bruce Leroy closes his teeth faster than any human can to catch a bullet.

My original stance was the source of speed is irrelevant. It's all about movement speed.
The fact is can character A move faster than character B.

Your stance though, assumes both competitors start at the same time t=0.

My argument is that the skilled competitor starts earlier, with skill being used as a form of precog (as explained pertinently in the scan with WW and bullets). Thus, giving the illusion of speed.

Abhilegend might have more examples of WW aim dodging, I don't know.

Edit: I love how you kept trying to quote forum rules at me.....then use non comic (i.e non canon) sources to bolster your argument. I get what you're trying to do, which is to illustrate your point - but when I do the same, i.e. use it to illustrate my point, you just shut down and try to get technical lmao.

Originally posted by abhilegend
She had to use backdraft of Jesse's speed trail to keep up with her. She didn't catch up with her, she used her lasso to hang on to her.

This is absolute bullshit, she used her the second time as a wind break to spare energy, but the first time literally even started to change her clothes while running besides Jesse:

As she was following the other speedster Christina, needed that one to crash her into something to get away from her.

And Wonder Woman just appeared much later behind the speeding Jesse, which means she either had all of a sudden a new Genocide-like teleportation ability i've never heard about, or catched up to her with her speed.

Have you even read these books?

Well you clearly didn't.

You mean got her in a Nelson? Yeah, that'll show her who's faster.

Are you blind or something:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Your stance though, assumes both competitors start at the same time t=0.

My argument is that the skilled competitor starts earlier, with skill being used as a form of precog (as explained pertinently in the scan with WW and bullets).

Abhilegend might have more examples of WW aim dodging, I don't know.

Originally posted by GodofNature
This is absolute bullshit, she used her the second time as a wind break to spare energy, but the first time literally even started to change her clothes while running besides Jesse:

Speedsters can change their speed, amazing isn't it? Jesse going at top speed required Diana to use her backdraft to keep up.

As she was following the other speedster Christina, needed that one to crash her into something to get away from her.

And?

And Wonder Woman just appeared much later behind the speeding Jesse, which means she either had all of a sudden a new Genocide-like teleportation ability i've never heard about, or catched up to her with her speed.

My dear nvr, do tell us where she caught up with her. All she did was fling her lasso at her.

She even says she can't hold Jesse back at that speed.

Well you clearly didn't.

Nvr did.

Are you blind or something:

Originally posted by GodofNature
Wonder Woman never had an actual pre-cog except you want to count something like cosmical awareness while channeling the God-Wave, neither through skill nor through anything else, and the only thing Abhilegend seems to have are wild takes.

Do tell us how she deflected bullets while being blind.

Power Girl is a touch faster than Wonder Woman.

If you measured the speed of their punches and kicks, power girl's will come out a notch ahead on a mph basis.

But that doesn't mean she is quicker than Diana. She is more likely to telegraph her punches and throw with inefficiencies that slow down the start up time of her blows.

Again speed is distance over time. Power girl has the edge there. Quickness is just time. Wonder Woman is close enough in physical speed that her quicker start times allow her to land first or dodge return blows with good success rates. That's not the same as her actions being faster than Power Girl's.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Your stance though, assumes both competitors start at the same time t=0.

My argument is that the skilled competitor starts earlier, with skill being used as a form of precog (as explained pertinently in the scan with WW and bullets). Thus, giving the illusion of speed.

Abhilegend might have more examples of WW aim dodging, I don't know.

Edit: I love how you kept trying to quote forum rules at me.....then use non comic (i.e non canon) sources to bolster your argument. I get what you're trying to do, which is to illustrate your point - but when I do the same, i.e. use it to illustrate my point, you just shut down and try to get technical lmao.

I'm comparing actual speed (Mph vs Mph).

Mph (or velocity) has nothing to do with who moves first. If you can throw a 50mph punch then when you actually throw it is irrelevant, if we are only comparing velocity.

If WW moves her arms faster than PG then she is faster in arm movement speed.
If PG can fly faster than WW then PG is faster in traveling speed.

If WW perceives motion BEFORE PG (like a beam of light) then WW'S reactions are faster.
PG doesn't really have any good arm speed feats on the level of WW.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Power Girl is a touch faster than Wonder Woman.

If you measured the speed of their punches and kicks, power girl's will come out a notch ahead on a mph basis.

But that doesn't mean she is quicker than Diana. She is more likely to telegraph her punches and throw with inefficiencies that slow down the start up time of her blows.

Again speed is distance over time. Power girl has the edge there. Quickness is just time. Wonder Woman is close enough in physical speed that her quicker start times allow her to land first or dodge return blows with good success rates. That's not the same as her actions being faster than Power Girl's.

Why? Because you want it to be? That's not proof.
WW has the faster arm speed going by feats.
No one here is comparing start times. We are comparing actual velocity (Mph obtained).

PG could probably fly faster than WW in space or something (too travel speed is higher). That's it.

Originally posted by h1a8
I'm comparing actual speed (Mph vs Mph).

Mph (or velocity) has nothing to do with who moves first. If you can throw a 50mph punch then when you actually throw it is irrelevant, if we are only comparing velocity.

If WW moves her arms faster than PG then she is faster in arm movement speed.
If PG can fly faster than WW then PG is faster in traveling speed.

If WW perceives motion BEFORE PG (like a beam of light) then WW'S reactions are faster.
PG doesn't really have any good arm speed feats on the level of WW.

But none of your non canon sources have a mph value. So how can you say you are comparing mph to mph???

The best you can say is one appears faster than the other. But WW has skill which can make her appear faster.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But none of your non canon sources have a mph value. So how can you say you are comparing mph to mph???

The best you can say is one appears faster than the other. But WW has skill which can make her appear faster.

If we know how fast the beam is, then we can get a lower estimate for the mph. Or if we know the minimum speed Zoom was moving when WW feated him.
Lower estimates can be used (not upper estimates).

Also lack of quantifiable feats automatically loses.
So if WW has quantifiable arm speed feats and PG doesn't (or feats that can scale to arm movement feats) then WW wins automatically.

Originally posted by h1a8
If we know how fast the beam is, then we can get a lower estimate for the mph. Or if we know the minimum speed Zoom was moving when WW feated him.
Lower estimates can be used (not upper estimates).

Also lack of quantifiable feats automatically loses.
So if WW has quantifiable arm speed feats and PG doesn't (or feats that can scale to arm movement feats) then WW wins automatically.

But PG does.

She's at LEAST as fast as WW. When someone talks about 'fast', they mean speed. Comics are not real life - writers have 'skill' as a separate category, as shown when PG and WW actually met.

Batman isn't lightspeed, or 10% of lightspeed or whatever calcs you tried to pull off. But his skill enables him to not get hit by HV.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But PG does.

She's at LEAST as fast as WW. When someone talks about 'fast', they mean speed. Comics are not real life - writers have 'skill' as a separate category, as shown when PG and WW actually met.

Batman isn't lightspeed, or 10% of lightspeed or whatever calcs you tried to pull off. But his skill enables him to not get hit by HV.

WW stated "As fast as me" and not "at least as fast as me". You misquoted.

Statements mean nothing when contradicted by feats. Otherwise we can say that WW is faster than Superman in combat speed (punching speed, kicking speed, etc as in Bruce Lee vs Usain Bolt analogy).

In that scan the Batman DID move more than 10% the speed of light, although he can't in other scenes or in a forum.

Originally posted by h1a8
WW stated "As fast as me" and not "at least as fast as me". You misquoted.

Statements mean nothing when contradicted by feats. Otherwise we can say that WW is faster than Superman in combat speed (punching speed, kicking speed, etc as in Bruce Lee vs Usain Bolt analogy).

In that scan the Batman DID move more than 10% the speed of light, although he can't in other scenes or in a forum.

You misread me. I wasn't quoting.

And in the comic, she speedblitzes WW (feat), which backs up WWs statement (statement).

Mods have actually said Bats is a special case, which is why I chose him.