Order these guys by speed

Originally posted by h1a8
Read the last part of what I said.
If Flash beats DD in a race (insert any task here instead of race) then what was said doesn't pertain to racing (insert task)

And read all the parts of my posts.

PG hit WW

Your rebuttal: slower characters tag faster characters all the time

But WW SPECIFICALLY commented that PG was FAST.

Your rebuttal: Speeds are different. Travel speed =/= reflex speed.

BUT, you have already said:

Originally posted by h1a8
PG could probably fly faster than WW in space or something (too travel speed is higher). That's it.

So since we are both in agreement that it's likely PG is faster in TRAVEL, we now move on to reflex/combat speed. And in COMBAT, WW SPECIFICALLY commented on PG's speed. AFTER she got tagged by PG.

Your analogy is faulty. If Flash says Doomsday is as fast as him, AFTER Doomsday has just raced against him and at times, even ran faster than him...you can't then turn around and say oooooh, Flash is faster.

Originally posted by h1a8
He moved at slightly less than half the distance the HV moved in the same time frame. Therefore, he moved at slightly less than half the speed of the HV in the artwork. Facts.

You can come to any conclusion you like from that.
Like the HV wasn't moving too much faster than a human can move.
Or skill allowed Batman to achieve such speed in a quick spurt.

This is the basic problem with expecting each panel to conform to your mental math. This is also the problem with debating comics without accepting or understanding the norms of a comic book.

Originally posted by Smurph
If the only conclusions that you can draw are absurd (ie that Batman is massively hypersonic or that HV moves like molasses) your interpretation is flawed.

This is the basic problem with expecting each panel to conform to your mental math. This is also the problem with debating comics without accepting or understanding the norms of a comic book.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And read all the parts of my posts.

PG hit WW

Your rebuttal: slower characters tag faster characters all the time

But WW SPECIFICALLY commented that PG was FAST.

Your rebuttal: Speeds are different. Travel speed =/= reflex speed.

BUT, you have already said:

So since we are both in agreement that it's likely PG is faster in TRAVEL, we now move on to reflex/combat speed. And in COMBAT, WW SPECIFICALLY commented on PG's [b]speed. AFTER she got tagged by PG.

Your analogy is faulty. If Flash says Doomsday is as fast as him, AFTER Doomsday has just raced against him and at times, even ran faster than him...you can't then turn around and say oooooh, Flash is faster. [/B]

You don't see my point. WW can comment on PG reflex speed (I disagree that she did) but we disregard her words if it contradict on panel evidence.

WW was able to dodge PG punches but not the other way around.

That was due to her skill. OTOH, she was unable to dodge PGs blows with speed.

Originally posted by h1a8
That's is no conclusion to draw but what we see.
If a character lifts a car on panel then it is absurd to say that he didn't lift a car on panel.

If Batman casually moves at lightspeed then you have a reading comprehension problem.

I think you got that backwards, Billy didn't argue with Power Girl that she is stronger than Captain Marvel, while she didn't argue that he is faster.

God when am I going to learn not to quote you Phil. SSSOOOO PAINFUL.

In any case, thanks. My old f#ing memory is failing me. I thought I remembered her saying it the other way.

On feats Cap should be faster than Diana but in warning the gods Hermes (who's speed Diana was supposed to have) kicked Mercury's (Cap's speed source) hide so hard to say.

Not sure why it took me so long to see that post

Originally posted by beatboks
God when am I going to learn not to quote you Phil. SSSOOOO PAINFUL.

You can do a quick quote to quote him. Obviously though you can't break it down if you want to respond point by point.

Originally posted by Smurph
Yeah, if Batman lifts a car then he lifts a car.

If Batman casually moves at lightspeed then you have a reading comprehension problem.

If Batman travels THE SAME DISTANCE the HV did in the SAME TIME FRAME ON Panel then he traveled the SAME SPEED as the HV ON PANEL.
You can come to any conclusion you like. The HV wasn't very fast in that time or it was very fast at that time. I don't care.

In other words, if Batman lifts a mountain on panel the he lifted a mountain on panel.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That was due to her skill. OTOH, she was unable to dodge PGs blows with speed.

Everyone in comics forget their speed and gets hit by slower beings. That is no proof that PG is faster.

The proof that WW has better reflexes is
1. WW was able to dodge and block PG punches
2. PG wasn't able to do the same.
3. WW has feats beyond PG outside their battle (Zoom for instance).

Originally posted by h1a8

You can come to any conclusion you like.

Originally posted by Smurph
I conclude that you don’t know how to read a comic book.

I conclude that you don't know basic definitions.

Speed = distance/time

Speed is what a comic says it is. Distance/time is one way to infer, but physics are ultimately at the control of the writers.

You want to rigidly insist that comic books conform to real world physics even if it means that Batman must be Quicksilver. We would have to ignore everything else we know about Batman because h1 can’t read a panel in the context of a comic book.

Batman dodges HV through extreme skill, not super speed. Similarly, extreme skill helps WW compensate (even over-compensate) for PG’s edge in base stats.

Originally posted by h1a8
Everyone in comics forget their speed and gets hit by slower beings. That is no proof that PG is faster.

The proof that WW has better reflexes is
1. WW was able to dodge and block PG punches
2. PG wasn't able to do the same.
3. WW has feats beyond PG outside their battle (Zoom for instance).

No. Shut up and read, we know you don't read comics.

Originally posted by Delta1938
If you had read the comic, you'd KNOW the writer intended the win to be a SKILL feat for Wonder Woman, not her being faster than Power Girl. All the talk of and emphasizing skill in Diana's narration. Well, first you'd have to read comics enough to understand them, THEN read the comic. The writer explicitly had WW say Power Girl was AT LEAST as strong and fast while PeeGee was blitzing her and knocking her around. None of your normal fail arguments against fights can change what the writer intended.

Also, Karen has straight up caught WW's punch and has at least a couple other examples to support her being stronger.

Originally posted by Smurph
Speed is what a comic says it is. Distance/time is one way to infer, but physics are ultimately at the control of the writers.

You want to rigidly insist that comic books conform to real world physics even if it means that Batman must be Quicksilver. We would have to ignore everything else we know about Batman because h1 can’t read a panel in the context of a comic book.

Batman dodges HV through extreme skill, not super speed. Similarly, extreme skill helps WW compensate (even over-compensate) for PG’s edge in base stats.

If he's talking about the example I think he is, Batman actually dodged it AFTER it was fired(not the one where it's not actually Superman, revealed later, where he dodged it before it went off). Just one of those feats ridiculous even by comic standards.

Originally posted by Delta1938
If he's talking about the example I think he is, Batman actually dodged it AFTER it was fired(not the one where it's not actually Superman, revealed later, where he dodged it before it went off). Just one of those feats ridiculous even by comic standards.

Originally posted by Smurph
Yeah, we’re talking about the same feat. Batman dodges after it was fired. So, is Batman Quicksilver?

So I guess you're arguing a high end feat is invalid.

Originally posted by Delta1938
So I guess you're arguing a high end feat is invalid.

We all know that Batman isn’t Quicksilver but that Batman’s skill helps him in a fight, even against much faster opponents. We also know that’s not how real world physics operate. This isn’t a difficult concept for readers, only for battle board debaters who want to selectively use mathematical arguments to reinterpret individual panels.

Originally posted by Smurph
No. I’m arguing that feats are interpreted in the overall context of a comic book.

We all know that Batman isn’t Quicksilver but that Batman’s skill helps him in a fight, even against much faster opponents. We also know that’s not how real world physics operate. This isn’t a difficult concept for readers, only for battle board debaters who want to selectively use mathematical arguments to reinterpret individual panels.

And how do you justify calling it a skill showing when he moves AFTER it fires? You can't get around the fact he reacted to it, not predicted and avoided it.

Actually you're acting a lot like H1 does, instead of accepting it and chalking it up to comics.

Again, I’ll point out that PIS is a rule meant to invalidate certain low showings, not high showings. Per the rules, PIS is about characters selectively forgetting their powers in order to become beat-able for the plot. Batman moving hypersonic isn’t a PIS issue because it isn’t a result of Batman’s stupidity. And a laser beam has no intelligence (f u living laser) and can’t be stupid for the sake of plot.

Is Batman Quicksilver? Obviously not. Do skilled characters dodge things they have no business dodging? All the time. What’s the takeaway? Skill gives the illusion of speed.