Originally posted by h1a8
Assuming HV is the speed of light (most likely true) then HV travels 20 feet in less than 2 hundred millionths of a second. Batman moved at least 2 feet in that time frame. Therefore Batman moved at least 1/10 of the speed of light. Did skill allow that speed? If so then my point is proven. Remember what I said, if skill allows me to move a million miles per hour then I can still move a million miles per hour.Batman is a comic human (which isn't a real human). Fictional humans have no limit to what they can do. They can do anything the writer wants them to do. So Batman being a comic human is absolutely meaningless here in this debate.
Lastly PIS showings are not allowed to be used as evidence. If you claim that it is impossible for Batman to move that fast, regardless of speed, then you are admitting to PIS.
No, you misunderstand, and you're so set in your ways you refuse to contemplate the alternatives.
There is no PIS within the comic book. We on the forums have invented the concept of PIS - but in DC/Marvel/comic universe, there is no PIS.
How does Susan Storm do what she does, according to Marvel? Does Reed sit there and go 'ah yes, this is PIS, because we are in a plot driven story'?
No.
Is it attributed to her superhuman speed? No - because she has no superhuman speed. She is human. All tests done on her on Marvel show her as human level in speed, durability, strength etc.
It is therefore attributed to her skills. Skills which give her the illusion of said speed, but isn't actually speed. Which thus shouldn't be taken into account.
Scaled up, WW has the illusion of speed, due to her skills, but isn't actually that fast. As proven by my scan, where she explicitly says she doesn't even need to be bullet level in speed, just needs to be able to predict where it will be fired (precog, using her skills).
Your 'arguments' are baseless, as you have not actually posted any scans rebutting it. As you yourself say, comics are not real life. As Smurph said:
Originally posted by Smurph
If you were in a comic book then truth would be dependent on the writer.Therefore, your argument doesn’t make sense.
And if comic writers want to make skill this magical attribute, then they can, and your arguments are completely meaningless. A writer can write whatever they want - if mutations in one's DNA enable you to control the weather, 'RL logic' flies out the window. If skill enables you to give the illusion of speed and strength, without actually being that fast/strong, 'RL' logic' flies out the window.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No, you misunderstand, and you're so set in your ways you refuse to contemplate the alternatives.There is no PIS within the comic book. We on the forums have invented the concept of PIS - but in DC/Marvel/comic universe, there is no PIS.
How does Susan Storm do what she does, according to Marvel? Does Reed sit there and go 'ah yes, this is PIS, because we are in a plot driven story'?
No.
Is it attributed to her superhuman speed? No - because she has no superhuman speed. She is human. All tests done on her on Marvel show her as human level in speed, durability, strength etc.
It is therefore attributed to her skills. Skills which give her the illusion of said speed, but isn't actually speed. Which thus shouldn't be taken into account.
Scaled up, WW has the illusion of speed, due to her skills, but isn't actually that fast. As proven by my scan, where she explicitly says she doesn't even need to be bullet level in speed, just needs to be able to predict where it will be fired (precog, using her skills).
Your 'arguments' are baseless, as you have not actually posted any scans rebutting it. As you yourself say, comics are not real life. As Smurph said:
And if comic writers want to make skill this magical attribute, then they can, and your arguments are completely meaningless. A writer can write whatever they want - if mutations in one's DNA enable you to control the weather, 'RL logic' flies out the window. If skill enables you to give the illusion of speed and strength, without actually being that fast/strong, 'RL' logic' flies out the window.
I am not yet satisfied with the IW scans. It's still inconclusive to the speed of the beam and whether or not she used prep bubbles.
But the Batman scan is clear.
PIS are the rules of the forum though. Those feats don't count towards anything. They are simply thrown out.
Either Batman can sometimes move at 1/10 of the speed of light or he can never. There is no inbetween. You can't use PIS to prove nonsensical things.
You are basically arguing that Batman can move 1/10 the distance a beam of light moves in the same time frame WITHOUT actually moving 1/10 the speed of light.
Originally posted by h1a8
I am not yet satisfied with the IW scans. It's still inconclusive to the speed of the beam and whether or not she used prep bubbles.But the Batman scan is clear.
PIS are the rules of the forum though. Those feats don't count towards anything. They are simply thrown out.
Either Batman can sometimes move at 1/10 of the speed of light or he can never. There is no inbetween. You can't use PIS to prove nonsensical things.You are basically arguing that Batman can move 1/10 the distance a beam of light moves in the same time frame WITHOUT actually moving 1/10 the speed of light.
Again - PIS does not exist in the comics themselves. Mr Terrific or Lex Luthor won't see that scene and say 'Huh, must be PIS'. If someone were to interview Batman afterwards, he wouldn't say 'I did it because the plot demanded it". If you were to ask the writer of the book, he wouldn't say 'Batman did it because of the stupidity of my plot'.
No, the feat would have been accomplished, thanks to skill. Writers can make anything up, and attribute it to skill - Karate Kid can shatter icebergs with a punch, redirect bloodlusted Daxamites into another solar system, Batman can react to HV etc etc, due to skill.
But they are NOT that fast or strong. It's all due to PIS skill - PIS, agreed (as I said from the beginning), but still skill.
And whilst you or I may wish to ignore it (separate matter, btw, because Batman actually gets special dispensation lol, which is why I initially used him), the fact of the matter is, we have these showings explicitly on paper, which was my point all this time - that in the mind of a comic writer, skill is used to plug gaps in stats.
And this thread is about stats.
Originally posted by h1a8That’s fine, though. The scan isn’t being used as a feat. Nobody is arguing that Batman moves at lightspeed.But the Batman scan is clear.
PIS are the rules of the forum though. Those feats don't count towards anything. They are simply thrown out.
Either Batman can sometimes move at 1/10 of the speed of light or he can never. There is no inbetween. You can't use PIS to prove nonsensical things.
The scan is just being used to teach you how a comic book works. Skill = illusion of speed.
You can’t eliminate individual panels until all that remains are panels that make mathematical sense to you.
Originally posted by Smurph
That’s fine, though. The scan isn’t being used as a feat. Nobody is arguing that Batman moves at lightspeed.The scan is just being used to teach you how a comic book works. Skill = illusion of speed.
You can’t eliminate individual panels until all that remains are panels that make mathematical sense to you.
There was no illusion of speed. Batman literally got out of the way after the fire. Illusion would be that he actually didn't get out of the way AFTER the fire but anticipated and got out of the way before the break was fired.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Again - PIS does not exist in the comics themselves. Mr Terrific or Lex Luthor won't see that scene and say 'Huh, must be PIS'. If someone were to interview Batman afterwards, he wouldn't say 'I did it because the plot demanded it". If you were to ask the writer of the book, he wouldn't say 'Batman did it because of the stupidity of my plot'.No, the feat would have been accomplished, thanks to skill. Writers can make anything up, and attribute it to skill - Karate Kid can shatter icebergs with a punch, redirect bloodlusted Daxamites into another solar system, Batman can react to HV etc etc, due to skill.
But they are NOT that fast or strong. It's all due to PIS skill - PIS, agreed (as I said from the beginning), but still skill.
And whilst you or I may wish to ignore it (separate matter, btw, because Batman actually gets special dispensation lol, which is why I initially used him), the fact of the matter is, we have these showings explicitly on paper, which was my point all this time - that in the mind of a comic writer, skill is used to plug gaps in stats.
And this thread is about stats.
You basically ignored what I said.
If a character moves a certain distance within a certain amount of time then they moved with a certain SPEED. That's not debatable.
What caused this speed? Skill? Who cares?
You can't sit here and troll and say that moving a known distance over a known time doesn't equate speed. That's the definition of speed itself.
PIS is when characters do things they are not supposed to do based off their history. If the HV was moving at the speed of light then Batman moved about 1/10 of that speed. Not debatable. If he's not supposed to then it is PIS. The only thing you can argue is that skill allowed him to move that fast. Nothing more.
Originally posted by h1a8Do you think Batman moved at lightspeed in that scan? 🙂
PIS can't be even mentioned.There was no illusion of speed. Batman literally got out of the way after the fire. Illusion would be that he actually didn't get out of the way AFTER the fire but anticipated and got out of the way before the break was fired.
Originally posted by Smurph
And this is inane. Plot stupidity has to be mentioned or else it can’t be identified.
The rule states no mentioning of PIS.
That means you should know prior that it's PIS before even considering mentioning it.
But that's not the only thing I said. That's less than half the battle.
The key thing I stated is far stronger.
Originally posted by h1a81) Per the rules, PIS is about characters jobbing and underperforming for the sake of plot.
The rule states no mentioning of PIS.
That means you should know prior that it's PIS before even considering mentioning it.But that's not the only thing I said. That's less than half the battle.
The key thing I stated is far stronger.
Plot Induced Stupidity, or PIS, is when characters don't use their abilities or skills to the fullest extent as shown before, even within their personality ranges, for the sake of the story plotline.
2) Whether or not the scan is mathematically stupid doesn’t matter, because nobody’s using it as evidence of Batman’s speed. Nobody is pointing to it and saying “look, Batman’s lightspeed!”. Unless…
3) Do you think Batman moved at lightspeed in that scan?
Originally posted by SmurphThe wording has changed over the years.
1) Per the rules, PIS is about characters jobbing and underperforming for the sake of plot.[/center]
Batman dodging heat vision after its fired is not jobbing. If we’re going to apply the exact wording of the rules, there’s no PIS here.2) Whether or not the scan is mathematically stupid doesn’t matter, because nobody’s using it as evidence of Batman’s speed. Nobody is pointing to it and saying “look, Batman’s lightspeed!”. Unless…
3) Do you think Batman moved at lightspeed in that scan?
Can you please use the other apostrophe? I can't quote you correctly.
If HV in that scene moved at light speed then Batman moved with about 1/10 the speed of light.
You can say that skill allowed Batman to move that fast.
Originally posted by h1a8No. There are three PIS rules covered in the rules thread. None define PIS as a character doing something beyond what you think they are capable of. PIS is about characters magically forgetting their powers, not magically getting new ones.
The wording has changed over the years.
Originally posted by h1a8
Can you please use the other apostrophe? I can't quote you correctly.
If HV in that scene moved at light speed then Batman moved with about 1/10 the speed of light.You can say that skill allowed Batman to move that fast.
Alright, so you think that is a scan of Batman moving at 1/10 c.
I think that is a scan of Batman, a human, being so skilled that he dodged surprise heat vision just in the nick of time.
The fact that you think your mental math trumps the clear point of the feat is the root of your misunderstanding in this thread and on this forum.
And… no apostrophes.
Originally posted by h1a8
You basically ignored what I said.If a character moves a certain distance within a certain amount of time then they moved with a certain SPEED. That's not debatable.
What caused this speed? Skill? Who cares?You can't sit here and troll and say that moving a known distance over a known time doesn't equate speed. That's the definition of speed itself.
PIS is when characters do things they are not supposed to do based off their history. If the HV was moving at the speed of light then Batman moved about 1/10 of that speed. Not debatable. If he's not supposed to then it is PIS. The only thing you can argue is that skill allowed him to move that fast. Nothing more.
Because your arguments were baseless.
To go back to your 'joke' - let's say you were racing against Usain Bolt, over 100m.
You have the skills and knowledge of the racetrack. Bolt, alas, is blindfolded, and there are obstacles in the way. Race starts, and you win handily as poor Bolt trips over a banana peel or falls down a pit or whatever.
Who is faster? Bolt has raw speed on you, but you knew how to navigate the racetrack - you had the knowledge, the skills. The distance is 100m for both of you, you crossed it in 15 seconds whilst he took 30 (assuming he finishes it, lol). Are you going to seriously say that you are 2x faster than Bolt? No. Your knowledge bridged that gap.
Smurph gets what I am trying to say - what I have been saying from the start. I am NOT saying OMG Batman is 1/100th lightspeed!!!
I am saying that the writer is using Batman's skills to bridge a gap in stats. IN-UNIVERSE, Batman does what he does, due to skills, his knowledge. Saying 'Oh, it makes no sense mathematically' is stupid. I can sit here with my knowledge of biology, and say 'DNA mutations enabling one to control the weather makes no sense, so all of Storm's feats are PIS', or 'gamma radiation just gives you cancer, not superstrength, so all of Hulk's feats are PIS', but that would be silly.
In comics, we suspend belief, especially when explanations are given, no matter how haphazard they can be. GLs can do what they do thanks to a central battery of emotionally powered light? Sure. A magical force surrounds all speedsters, enabling them to break physical laws? OK. Alien DNA allows you to shoot HV and fly? Why not.
Skills enable a slower/weaker character to keep up with faster/stronger characters? Indeed. The point I make, then, is that we recognise that without said skills, that character is slower/weaker. If you were bereft of your knowledge of the racetrack, you would be slower than Bolt.
It is about comparing like for like.