Order these guys by speed

Originally posted by h1a8
Anticipating attacks is different than moving in relation to an attack.
If a character moves AFTER the attack launches then speed is needed to be successful.

Sure if you move or block right BEFORE the attack is launched then that's not speed (more so aim dodging or aim blocking). I agree. Buts that not what we are arguing. DS posted a scan with Batman moving AFTER the beam is halfway to him. There's no anticipation in that.

Either the HV isn't very fast
Or
Batman is very fast
Or
It's PIS

Batman’s a ninja

Originally posted by Smurph
Or

Batman’s a ninja

Being a ninja can give you speed

Tbf, both things are true:

- skill makes characters faster
- skill makes characters appear faster than they are

So the “is skill separate from speed?” debate is based on a false dichotomy

Originally posted by Smurph
Tbf, both things are true:

- skill makes characters faster
- skill makes characters appear faster than they are

So the “is skill separate from speed?” debate is based on a false dichotomy

I agree.
That's why I said that if a character anticipates an attack using skill then that is not speed but the illusion of speed.
Now if a character reacts and moves fast AFTER the attack then speed is involved (even if it was fueled by skill).

Originally posted by h1a8
PIS exists independent of writers intent. A writer can ntend for a character to do something but it is still PIS.

Again if skill allows me to run a million miles per hour than I can run a million miles per hour.

If skill allows Batman to move at 1/100 the speed of light Or better then Batman can move at 1/100 the speed of light Or better.

The source of speed is irrelevant. It's all about how how you can move or respond.

Here's a joke:

I and Usian Bolt (at his best) race the 100m dash.
I beat him by 4 seconds.
People ask me how I did it.
I tell them I used skill.

Judges disqualify me telling me that skill is illegal.
I cry.

But I am not using the Batman scan to prove he is faster or that he beats XYZ character here.

I am using it to show that writers have, in fact, shown Batman moving and reacting to energy blasts AFTER they have been fired.

Which is what I have said.

I also showed IW doing the same. So your statement, that they can't do it because it hasn't happened, is false.

Originally posted by h1a8
If I say they can't that means they haven't. Prove that they reacted lasers shot from behind them AFTER they were fired.

Done.

Fun facts:

[list]
[*]h1 has a brain tumour size of a horse testicle

[*]he uses IE6 as his one and only browser[/list]

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But I am not using the Batman scan to prove he is faster or that he beats XYZ character here.

I am using it to show that writers have, in fact, shown Batman moving and reacting to energy blasts AFTER they have been fired.

Which is what I have said.

I also showed IW doing the same. So your statement, that they can't do it because it hasn't happened, is false.

The statement was from "behind" and "lasers" in which you haven't.
The batman scan is inconclusive and so is the IW scan.

I never stated that Batman didnt react to an energy blast after the fire because I knew of 2 separate instances where he did.
But you stated "behind" and "lasers" to both which are not necessarily true.

Originally posted by h1a8
The statement was from "behind" and "lasers" in which you haven't.
The batman scan is inconclusive and so is the IW scan.

I never stated that Batman didnt react to an energy blast after the fire because I knew of 2 separate instances where he did.
But you stated "behind" and "lasers" to both which are not necessarily true.

The blasts came from behind them, and they reacted. You being pedantic is beneath you, as you once said to me.

The writer intent is still that two humans were able to react to blasts, despite having human level speed, because of their skill.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The blasts came from behind them, and they reacted. You being pedantic is beneath you, as you once said to me.

The writer intent is still that two humans were able to react to blasts, despite having human level speed, because of their skill.

And assuming they reacted after the fire

Then either
1) beam wasn't very fast (not near the speed of light)
Or
2) beam was near the speed of light and they move 1/100 the speed of light or more
Or
3) PIS

Geez, maybe next time we should bar skills when asking/ordering speed

This thread got derailed from page three and never came back

Originally posted by h1a8
It is inconclusive that Batman reacted after the fire. It's inconclusive that they were lasers.

And assuming they reacted after the fire

Then either
1) beam wasn't very fast (not near the speed of light)
Or
2) beam was near the speed of light and they move 1/100 the speed of light or more
Or
3) PIS

PIS does not exist in universe, as I already pointed out and addressed.

Batman and Sue do what they do because of skill, which was my point from the start. Hence, it throws showings into doubt, when discussing speed.

Unless you want to just say Batman ANd Sue are just that fast, and it doesn't matter that he uses skill to create these speed showings. That's ok.

HV is HV, unless you can prove Superman can vary the speed of his HV.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
PIS does not exist in universe, as I already pointed out and addressed.

Batman and Sue do what they do because of skill, which was my point from the start. Hence, it throws showings into doubt, when discussing speed.

Unless you want to just say Batman ANd Sue are just that fast, and it doesn't matter that he uses skill to create these speed showings. That's ok.

HV is HV, unless you can prove Superman can vary the speed of his HV.

So you claiming 1) and 2) are false?
Note: 2) states that the characters are that fast.
Remember, I stated (multiple times) if skill can make me move a million miles per hour then I can move a million miles per hour.

Originally posted by h1a8
So you claiming 1) and 2) are false?
Note: 2) states that the characters are that fast.
Remember, I stated (multiple times) if skill can make me move a million miles per hour then I can move a million miles per hour.

HV is HV. It always travels at the same speed, which I assume to be lightspeed. So 1 is false.

Batman isn't that fast. He is a human. So 2 is false.

It being PIS, and it being due to skill, are not incompatible. But skill in comics is separate from speed- as seen with skilled street levellers (like Batman) being able to keep up with metahumans, simply due to skill and not speed. As acknowledged in showings when Batman is explicitly slower, yet is still able to keep up- in universe, this is due to his skills.

But no one in universe will say Batman is as fast as Superman. They will say he is more skilled, sure.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
HV is HV.

hvlk is hvlk

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
HV is HV. It always travels at the same speed, which I assume to be lightspeed. So 1 is false.

Batman isn't that fast. He is a human. So 2 is false.

It being PIS, and it being due to skill, are not incompatible. But skill in comics is separate from speed- as seen with skilled street levellers (like Batman) being able to keep up with metahumans, simply due to skill and not speed. As acknowledged in showings when Batman is explicitly slower, yet is still able to keep up- in universe, this is due to his skills.

But no one in universe will say Batman is as fast as Superman. They will say he is more skilled, sure.

Assuming HV is the speed of light (most likely true) then HV travels 20 feet in less than 2 hundred millionths of a second. Batman moved at least 2 feet in that time frame. Therefore Batman moved at least 1/10 of the speed of light. Did skill allow that speed? If so then my point is proven. Remember what I said, if skill allows me to move a million miles per hour then I can still move a million miles per hour.

Batman is a comic human (which isn't a real human). Fictional humans have no limit to what they can do. They can do anything the writer wants them to do. So Batman being a comic human is absolutely meaningless here in this debate.

Lastly PIS showings are not allowed to be used as evidence. If you claim that it is impossible for Batman to move that fast, regardless of speed, then you are admitting to PIS.

Originally posted by h1a8
Assuming HV is the speed of light (big assumption)

https://ibb.co/BVjZRvZ
https://ibb.co/xgfGh5V

Originally posted by h1a8
I agree.
That's why I said that if a character anticipates an attack using skill then that is not speed but the illusion of speed.

So we are agreed that WW’s skill gives her the “illusion of speed” … which we would need to take into account in a debate about her actual speed.

Cool cool cool.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Geez, maybe next time we should bar skills when asking/ordering speed

This thread got derailed from page three and never came back

Originally posted by Smurph
Ok great.

So we are agreed that WW’s skill gives her the “illusion of speed” … which we would need to take into account in a debate about her actual speed.

Cool cool cool.

We measure speed objectively, not its illusion.
WW is legit very fast (objectively). Faster than PG in most tasks except travel speed.