I mean.... fine, I agree that slower characters hit faster characters all the time. I read Flash and Batman comics.
But then to argue that WW hitting a fast character is proof of her speed? Laughable.
I mean, it's not as if directly after, Zoom explicitly comments on her speed, like, I dunno....WW commenting on PG....
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean.... fine, I agree that slower characters hit faster characters all the time. I read Flash and Batman comics.But then to argue that WW hitting a fast character is proof of her speed? Laughable.
I mean, it's not as if directly after, Zoom explicitly comments on her speed, like, I dunno....WW commenting on PG....
He's replicating carter.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
She also got hit in the comic.If she's faster (as argued by you) and more skilled (as shown in the comic), then leaving herself open is impossible. She is sentient, she can see PGs fist (or even her entire body) moving towards her.
I don't forget how his powers work. Batman has tagged him. Liberty Belle has ,too.
You cannot simultaneously argue that slower characters tag faster characters in comics , whilst attempt to use examples of WW tagging fast characters as proof she's fast.
I can argue that slower characters tagging faster characters DO NOT PROVE THEY ARE FASTER.
That doesn't defeat the argument that tagging a fast character when fast character was operating at high speed is a speed feat.
In other words, I can simultaneously argue both.
Originally posted by Delta1938
.....can you not read? This is at minimum the second time I'm quoting this because you never acknowledged.
That quote has nothing to do with my argument. I never claim WW beat PG because she was faster.
I stated that PG is faster than WW in travel speed.
WW is faster in reflex perception and arm movement speed.
Their fight proves that WW has better reflexes, not necessarily better arm speed.
Feats outside their fight prove that WW has better arm speed.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean.... fine, I agree that slower characters hit faster characters all the time. I read Flash and Batman comics.But then to argue that WW hitting a fast character is proof of her speed? Laughable.
I mean, it's not as if directly after, Zoom explicitly comments on her speed, like, I dunno....WW commenting on PG....
I addressed this above already. I'll just reiterate.
Tagging faster characters (especially when faster characters are not being fast) doesn't prove you are faster than them.
But
Tagging faster characters when faster characters are actually being fast does prove you are fast (just not faster).
Originally posted by h1a8
That quote has nothing to do with my argument. I never claim WW beat PG because she was faster.I stated that PG is faster than WW in travel speed.
WW is faster in reflex perception and arm movement speed.Their fight proves that WW has better reflexes, not necessarily better arm speed.
Feats outside their fight prove that WW has better arm speed.
No it doesn't, because the writer CLEARLY INTENDED to be talking about PG's combat speed, not travel speed. This is why we say you don't read comics, because you don't understand them.
Originally posted by h1a8
I addressed this above already. I'll just reiterate.Tagging faster characters (especially when faster characters are not being fast) doesn't prove you are faster than them.
But
Tagging faster characters when faster characters are actually being fast does prove you are fast (just not faster).
But in that instance, he was still faster than her. She merely used skill to tag Zoom.
So your 'proof' is not actually any use. She used her skill to maneuver Zoom precisely into the spot she wanted him to be so she could use her lasso - which goes back to my original point, that writers use skill to cover gaps in stats. Post the scan of her tagging Zoom.
Originally posted by Delta1938
No it doesn't, because the writer CLEARLY INTENDED to be talking about PG's combat speed, not travel speed. This is why we say you don't read comics, because you don't understand them.
Combat speed is made of multiple different speeds.
You have arm movement speed, reflex speed (perception speed), travel speed (like flight), leg kick speed, torso movement speed, etc.
What is shown >>>>> what is said.
If 1 character shows faster reflex speed then another then it doesn't matter what is said. If one character shows faster arm speed than another then it doesn't matter what is said.
The same scenario goes for the writer for Batman comparing the two.
Batman stated that WW is faster than Superman in combat but slower than Superman in a race (he compared Usain Bolt to Bruce Lee). Everyone (even Pr) disagreed because we know Superman is faster in everything than WW (his perceptions are better, his arm speed is better, etc). Yet it was THAT writer’s intent right?
Originally posted by h1a8
Combat speed is made of multiple different speeds.
You have arm movement speed, reflex speed (perception speed), travel speed (like flight), leg kick speed, torso movement speed, etc.What is shown >>>>> what is said.
If 1 character shows faster reflex speed then another then it doesn't matter what is said. If one character shows faster arm speed than another then it doesn't matter what is said.The same scenario goes for the writer for Batman comparing the two.
Batman stated that WW is faster than Superman in combat but slower than Superman in a race (he compared Usain Bolt to Bruce Lee). Everyone (even Pr) disagreed because we know Superman is faster in everything than WW (his perceptions are better, his arm speed is better, etc). Yet it was THAT writer’s intent right?
It was indeed that writer's intent, and we have his interviews where he says he deliberately tried to write Superman as (relatively)slow.
Originally posted by Delta1938Characters performing outside their character tier is … fine. Normal. Tiers are fan constructs that don’t confine characters.
That's not answering my question.
The problem would be saying that Batman could move at lightspeed in a comic but couldn’t do it on the forum.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85👆 Exactly.
This is how I align it.If, after the feat, Mr Terrific and Lex and Ray Palmer and all the big brains sat down with the video evidence, and interviewed Batman etc, what would the in universe reason be? Would they come to the conclusion that 'Batman is just that fast?'
Or would it be 'Batman is just that skilled'?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Of course Zoom is faster than WW, even when WW tagged him.
But in that instance, he was still faster than her. She merely used skill to tag Zoom.So your 'proof' is not actually any use. She used her skill to maneuver Zoom precisely into the spot she wanted him to be so she could use her lasso - which goes back to my original point, that writers use skill to cover gaps in stats. Post the scan of her tagging Zoom.
Why are you repeating that dumb argument when I clearly stated that tagging Zoom doesn't prove WW is faster than him?
But tagging zoom while HE WAS USING SPEED is a speed feat.
Just like tagging a bullet shot (not towards you) is a speed feat.
See the difference?
She didn't maneuver Zoom anything. Zoom was still moving so fast than he was appearing in multiple places at once.
That means his slow perception of time was still on while he was moving near light speed or better.
Originally posted by h1a8
Combat speed is made of multiple different speeds.
You have arm movement speed, reflex speed (perception speed), travel speed (like flight), leg kick speed, torso movement speed, etc.What is shown >>>>> what is said.
If 1 character shows faster reflex speed then another then it doesn't matter what is said. If one character shows faster arm speed than another then it doesn't matter what is said.The same scenario goes for the writer for Batman comparing the two.
Batman stated that WW is faster than Superman in combat but slower than Superman in a race (he compared Usain Bolt to Bruce Lee). Everyone (even Pr) disagreed because we know Superman is faster in everything than WW (his perceptions are better, his arm speed is better, etc). Yet it was THAT writer’s intent right?
If you'd read the comic, which would require you reading comics, you'd see Wonder Woman was losing, getting knocked around and SPEED BLITZED, while WW said PG was AT LEAST as strong and fast as herself. It was only after she said "I'm an Amazon, I have to fight like one" that she actually started winning. If WW has faster reflexes and arm speed, where was that preventing her from being on the losing end of the fight until she started actually using skill? No, what was said AND shown is how I know I'm right and you're wrong.
No, the comic had it say Wonder Woman's "trained reflexes." But Superman has the greater raw speed. The writer said something along the lines of WW just reacting because of training to Superman doesn't have that. He could have just poorly worded his original writing, but I do think he partly folded to reaction and half doubled down, half changed his argument, but that's another matter. Regardless, if anything what you bring up actually refutes your own argument and supports mine.
Originally posted by Smurph
Characters performing outside their character tier is … fine. Normal. Tiers are fan constructs that don’t confine characters.The problem would be saying that Batman could move at lightspeed in a comic but couldn’t do it on the forum.
👆 Exactly.
And yet what I say is actually what happened. Not what you argue. Skill wasn't said at all in the scene and we literally saw Batman move only after it was blasted. Blame the writer all you want, your arguments don't change what actually happened on panel.
Originally posted by h1a8
Of course Zoom is faster than WW, even when WW tagged him.Why are you repeating that dumb argument when I clearly stated that tagging Zoom doesn't prove WW is faster than him?
But tagging zoom while HE WAS USING SPEED is a speed feat.
Just like tagging a bullet shot (not towards you) is a speed feat.See the difference?
She didn't maneuver Zoom anything. Zoom was still moving so fast than he was appearing in multiple places at once.
That means his slow perception of time was still on while he was moving near light speed or better.
Post the scan. Prove that she didn't maneuver him.
Originally posted by Delta1938
And yet what I say is actually what happened. Not what you argue. Skill wasn't said at all in the scene and we literally saw Batman move only after it was blasted. Blame the writer all you want, your arguments don't change what actually happened on panel.
Originally posted by Smurph
So, Batman can move at lightspeed?
Originally posted by Delta1938
If you'd read the comic, which would require you reading comics, you'd see Wonder Woman was losing, getting knocked around and SPEED BLITZED, while WW said PG was AT LEAST as strong and fast as herself. It was only after she said "I'm an Amazon, I have to fight like one" that she actually started winning. If WW has faster reflexes and arm speed, where was that preventing her from being on the losing end of the fight until she started actually using skill? No, what was said AND shown is how I know I'm right and you're wrong.No, the comic had it say Wonder Woman's "trained reflexes." But Superman has the greater raw speed. The writer said something along the lines of WW just reacting because of training to Superman doesn't have that. He could have just poorly worded his original writing, but I do think he partly folded to reaction and half doubled down, half changed his argument, but that's another matter. Regardless, if anything what you bring up actually refutes your own argument and supports mine.
So you agree that so called writer's intent is meaningless when it contradicts on panel events and character history?
Who has the faster arm speed is inconclusive in that fight.
But looking at showings outside that fight then WW has the better quantifiable feats.
Who has the better travel speed in that fight? Clearly PG.
Who has the better perception speed in that fight?
WW did. And she has better feats outside that fight.
PG blitzing WW is meaningless because she did it when WW was distracted and opened up.
I can see with PG did that when WW was fully aware and in position to react and defend. The kick was chained to the blitz so it doesn't count either.
PG did punch WW in the face a few times. But like I said EVERYONE gets punched in the face in comics, even by slower enemies.
I'm.not saying WW is way faster than PG in arm movement speed or reflexes. She's at least a little faster in those areas.
You can't just use that instance against both characters whole career. Otherwise I can argue that WW is faster than Superman because of THAT particular writer's intent at that moment. Which doesn't fly.
Originally posted by h1a8
So you agree that so called writer's intent is meaningless when it contradicts on panel events and character history?Who has the faster arm speed is inconclusive in that fight.
But looking at showings outside that fight then WW has the better quantifiable feats.Who has the better travel speed in that fight? Clearly PG.
Who has the better perception speed in that fight?
WW did. And she has better feats outside that fight.PG blitzing WW is meaningless because she did it when WW was distracted and opened up.
I can see with PG did that when WW was fully aware and in position to react and defend. The kick was chained to the blitz so it doesn't count either.
PG did punch WW in the face a few times. But like I said EVERYONE gets punched in the face in comics, even by slower enemies.
I'm.not saying WW is way faster than PG in arm movement speed or reflexes. She's at least a little faster in those areas.
You can't just use that instance against both characters whole career. Otherwise I can argue that WW is faster than Superman because of THAT particular writer's intent at that moment. Which doesn't fly.
😆 What? How do you get "you agree so called writer's intent is meaningless " blah blah blah blah from? What's said doesn't contradict what's on panel. Your arguments don't change that. You wrote a bunch of nothing.
Originally posted by h1a8Strawmanning is setting up and defeating a different argument. I’m not doing that. I’m just asking a question that logically flows from your and Delta’s position.
You are strawmanning.A better question is DID Batman move at more than 10% the speed of that HV in that instance.
You are arguing can he do it all the time (which he can't).
A character performaning an outlier feat doesn't mean they can do it all the time.
Delta said hypersonic would be too slow for this feat, but we can choose whatever degree of super speed you like. The question is just: is that a power that Batman has? Just a yes or no question.