Originally posted by h1a8
So you want to troll?
You basically ignored THAT zoom was simultaneously being 4 people at once. This is WHILE the rocks were traveling past him.Assuming that she lessened his attention just slightly then she has to have off the charts level speed just to pin point Zoom when he is actually 4 different people. [u]Her perceptions have to be off the chart to since she has to perceive his motion in order to lasso him at the right moment.[u]
Did you forget she was blind?
Originally posted by h1a8
So you want to troll?
You basically ignored THAT zoom was simultaneously being 4 people at once. This is WHILE the rocks were traveling past him.Assuming that she lessened his attention just slightly then she has to have off the charts level speed just to pin point Zoom when he is actually 4 different people. Her perceptions have to be off the chart to since she has to perceive his motion in order to lasso him at the right moment.
If you think I am trolling, report me.
When she caught him, he wasn't 4 people. Moreover, her perceptions do not need to be that tip top in order to catch him - she merely needs to there her lasso where the stones AREN'T. You even see this in the panel- she throws her lasso as the stones are still in the air. It's fast, sure, and remember I never said WW wasn't fast.
Just that she used skill to bridge a gap in stats. Which she does here. It's the same as Deathstroke trapping Wally in Identity Crisis - she covered the areas which he couldn't go to, until he had only one spot left to be. Where her lasso was.
Like I said, it was a good piece of proof. Thanks.
Originally posted by Delta1938I think you get worked up because you talk around points that you can’t respond to.
But it is laughable, so I can only conclude either you're lying, or you're stupid if you actually believe I'm getting worked up. So go ahead and believe it if you want, you're wrong regardless.And what I said is that's WHAT HAPPENED. Pointing to Batman's history is a cop out at best, and is just wrong, unless they established Batman having skill to the point he's effectively superhuman, like Karate Kid, and I missed it. This is pretty much the same as him hurting or even KOing Top-Tier bricks, skill only goes so far, including the "pressure points" thing. Given the force some of these characters have outright taken, pressure points effecting them would still require strength far beyond human. And yet we don't blink when that happens. But you're saying it has to be skill that he dodged HV even though it was fired after.
You have no explanation for how the writer "obviously intended it to be skill." How does "Batman's history" even apply to that specific writer? Unless you read an interview of him saying he's sticking to Batman's history, which is actually possible (stranger things have happened) this literally doesn't answer my question of what in the scene even suggested it was skill.
I don't know what the writer intended, I just know what actually happened is he dodged it after it was fired, and nothing I recall or noticed even suggested it was a skill based dodge. Take it up with the writer. Me saying he did dodge light via speed(not skill) in a specific instance isn't proof he is that fast isn't a contradiction, because it's comics. You saying it had to be skill and can't point to anything in the comic but say "it was obviously intended to be skill" and not actually cite anything in the comic is headcanon since you can't point to anything in the comic itself to support your claim.
The intention was obviously a skill feat because Batman doesn’t have super powers. If you actually believed this was a speed feat then we would be taking it up in the tiers thread. Instead you’re saying Batman moved at lightspeed but then ignoring the feat because it conflicts with his established character…. and yet, you say that his established character has nothing to do with how we interpret this feat. Strange strange strange. Maybe just wilfully moronic.
Originally posted by Smurph
I think you get worked up because you talk around points that you can’t respond to.The intention was obviously a skill feat because Batman doesn’t have super powers. If you actually believed this was a speed feat then we would be taking it up in the tiers thread. Instead you’re saying Batman moved at lightspeed but then ignoring the feat because it conflicts with his established character…. and yet, you say that his established character has nothing to do with how we interpret this feat. Strange strange strange. Maybe just wilfully moronic.
The irony. So we established which it is.
So you can't show where in the comic that it's even suggested to be a skill feat and point to outside the comic. Concessions accepted.
Neither in the comic is it said to be a speed feat either, though. No one goes holy smokes Batman, you're so fast!!
So we go off other comics, comics which establish him as being....well, not lightspeed. Comics which establish he's obsessive in his skill practice. Comics which say he does crazy things thanks to his skills, and we then extend it to this one.
I mean, this exact comic doesn't say Superman is from Krypton (iirc), but we can infer that he is, thanks to....other comics.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
If you think I am trolling, report me.When she caught him, he wasn't 4 people. Moreover, her perceptions do not need to be that tip top in order to catch him - she merely needs to there her lasso where the stones AREN'T. You even see this in the panel- she throws her lasso as the stones are still in the air. It's fast, sure, and remember I never said WW wasn't fast.
Just that she used skill to bridge a gap in stats. Which she does here. It's the same as Deathstroke trapping Wally in Identity Crisis - she covered the areas which he couldn't go to, until he had only one spot left to be. Where her lasso was.
Like I said, it was a good piece of proof. Thanks.
You are forgetting that Zoom was in 4 places at once (moving in metroman time perception from one place to another). So if rocks were kicked human level speed then they would be frozen to Zoom. If they were not frozen to Zoom then the rocks were traveling rivaling his speed.
So basically you are arguing something different than me.
My argument is that it is a speed feat. Or that one needs super speed and perceptions to achieve it.
You are arguing that WW used skill to help with her speed to bridge the gap.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Neither in the comic is it said to be a speed feat either, though. No one goes holy smokes Batman, you're so fast!!So we go off other comics, comics which establish him as being....well, not lightspeed. Comics which establish he's obsessive in his skill practice. Comics which say he does crazy things thanks to his skills, and we then extend it to this one.
I mean, this exact comic doesn't say Superman is from Krypton (iirc), but we can infer that he is, thanks to....other comics.
The batman argument is stupid. Batman moved more than 10% of the speed of the HV going by the definition of speed.
Now you can argue whatever you like AFTER that fact.
For instance
1. HV wasn't moving fast
2. Skill allowed Batman to move that fast
3. Artist drew picture wrong
4. Bad writing
5. Etc.
Originally posted by h1a8
You are forgetting that Zoom was in 4 places at once (moving in metroman time perception from one place to another). So if rocks were kicked human level speed then they would be frozen to Zoom. If they were not frozen to Zoom then the rocks were traveling rivaling his speed.So basically you are arguing something different than me.
My argument is that it is a speed feat. Or that one needs super speed and perceptions to achieve it.You are arguing that WW used skill to help with her speed to bridge the gap.
It's like whack a mole. If you have five holes in front of you, and you clog four of the holes up with rocks, then there is only one place the mole can pop up. So you use your skill in rock throwing and tactical nous, to use the rocks. Just like Deathstroke did with Wally West.
What perceptions did she use? Pray tell. The scan shows no perceptions being used, or are you making stuff up?
So let's walk through this.
In the comic, WW is blind. BUT, she still has her other senses - including her hearing:
Conclusion: Zoom isn't faster than sound when speaking (she can hear him and move accordingly).
He is NOT faster than her (as per the comic itself):
Note her tactical nous. She knows all she has to do is 'precog' him - force him to be in a spot of her choosing. Get ahead of him.
Later on, Wally steals Cheetah's speed:
Conclusion: Cheetah is slower now.
Yet is still able to outreact Diana, despite her 'perceptions and speed', as h1 attests:
Conclusion: Diana has some speed, sure. Never said she didn't. But she was blind here, and relied on her other senses. Zoom isn't faster than her, merely ahead in time in X seconds - so all one needs to do, is plan tactically X+1 seconds ahead.
Originally posted by Delta1938
I don't know if Cyclops' blasts are lightspeed or not(don't what the energy is supposed to be) so I have no opinion on Wolverine blocking them. If they are lightspeed and it was speed blocking them, not skill, I'd just count it again as a rare high end feat. Like with Batman.
I agree with your interpretation, Both Batman and Wolverine(and a lot of street levelers) can perform ridiculously high-end feats that blatantly contradit their established histories
But if others chalk it up to their skills are wrong imo. The main point being, Batman/Wolverine, the character himself, cant move at lightspeed according to their established histories
And for skills part, like I said before, I personally think Karate Kid would be a much better example to prove skills can give you a lot of BS abilities that you actually dont have
So in universe, what is the reason for Batman and KK and others doing what they do? Ignore PIS or whatever - those are constructs forum people invented.
I 100% agree it's a high end unusable feat for BZs and debates in the context of a feat for Bats, whether it be for skill or speed, btw
I am using it as an example of writers using skill as a crutch so slower characters can keep up with faster characters.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So in universe, what is the reason for Batman and KK and others doing what they do? Ignore PIS or whatever - those are constructs forum people invented.I 100% agree it's a high end unusable feat for BZs and debates in the context of a feat for Bats, whether it be for skill or speed, btw
I am using it as an example of writers using skill as a crutch so slower characters can keep up with faster characters.
But hi, I think this debate is meaningless. We both agree Batman cant move lightspeed, the only difference is I perceive it as, lets say, an unarmed Batman survived the encounter with a bloodluster Wonder Woman.
And you perceive it as a skill feat, which I dont have problem with. Since I also agreed skills can give street levelers abilities that they actually dont have. Thus, It also can be logically chalked up to skill feat
I used Karate Kid mainly just because this character more blatanly performed ridiculous feats via skills IMHO
I don't know what you guys are talking about, Batman is clearly moving at relativistic speeds. It's right there on the page, impossible he moved due to skill. What skill allows you to sidestep lightspeed?
It's why he dresses in black, so that the blueshift when he moves is not as noticeable.
He has tricked everybody into underestimating him.
Like I've pointed out, most people don't react the same way to Batman (or other officially normal human characters) hurting Top-Tier bricks. Not like they act as it's the norm, but they don't go to lengths to explain things that don't fit the scene. Like I also said, the pressure point argument only goes so far, and it's not even always officially used or at least alluded to.
I don't know if it's people are just used to that, or they don't comprehend it's just as ridiculous as someone officially within the human limits of speed dodging light after it was fired.
Karate Kid though just does it because he's that skilled and it's the core of his character. They do sometimes give explanations of the techniques he's using.....whether it's a good job of explaining or not I'll leave up to you, but they do sometimes actually explain the techniques.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Like I've pointed out, most people don't react the same way to Batman (or other officially normal human characters) hurting Top-Tier bricks. Not like they act as it's the norm, but they don't go to lengths to explain things that don't fit the scene. Like I also said, the pressure point argument only goes so far, and it's not even always officially used or at least alluded to.I don't know if it's people are just used to that, or they don't comprehend it's just as ridiculous as someone officially within the human limits of speed dodging light after it was fired.
Karate Kid though just does it because he's that skilled and it's the core of his character. They do sometimes give explanations of the techniques he's using.....whether it's a good job of explaining or not I'll leave up to you, but they do sometimes actually explain the techniques.
Absolutely, I also call into question Batman doing the same. Again, skill is used as a crutch to explain it away WITHIN UNIVERSE. It's definitely PIS, still, but PIS levels of skill (as opposed to PIS levels of strength).