Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Post the scan. Prove that she didn't maneuver him.
She kicked a bunch of rocks at him. I guess to distract him a little.
But you clearly still see multiple images of him. He's still trying to pretend to be 4 different people while the rocks are flying. That means he is still moving at superspeed with super perceptions.
Originally posted by h1a8
https://imgur.com/a/t8sO7RrShe kicked a bunch of rocks at him. I guess to distract him a little.
But you clearly still see multiple images of him. He's still trying to pretend to be 4 different people while the rocks are flying. That means he is still moving at superspeed with super perceptions.
She kicked the rocks to move him to a specific spot to lasso him. She's blind, so can't aim her lasso.
In short, she knew where he was going to be, and acted accordingly. Simple skill, used almost as precog, to cover her gap in stats.
Originally posted by Smurph
Strawmanning is setting up and defeating a different argument. I’m not doing that. I’m just asking a question that logically flows from your and Delta’s position.Delta said hypersonic would be too slow for this feat, but we can choose whatever degree of super speed you like. The question is just: is that a power that Batman has? Just a yes or no question.
Why instead of chalking it up to a one off of a single writer do you feel so compelled to create your own headcanon that goes against what is on panel? It's not even close to the first time non powered characters have done things that ridiculous, in fact I'd say there's more examples that ridiculous for strength, but do you make headcanon for them too?
Im not sure about the argument around Batman's instance
Street level characters performed some feats that arent alighed wtih their histories is a comic trope, which we have seen a lot.
Batman withstood Atomic Skull's nuclear explosion, for example. Did it happen on panel? Absolutely yes. Does it mean Batman, the character itself, has nuclear-level durability? I dont think so
Same logic applied here. Did Batman dodge HV after it was fired? Absolute yes. But it certainly doesnt mean Batman has lightspeed reaction/speed/reflex. Whether you chalk it up to skill or artist just wanted to show a sexy fight scene really doesnt matter imo
There are tons of other examples that show training can cover the shortage of speed, strength, durability etc.
I mean look at this
https://ibb.co/nP79Hp7
https://imgur.com/a/2VA7s
Which even corroborated by his bio
https://ibb.co/W3TNrGY
Karate Kid definitely doesnt have massive FTL speed/reflex, but his training made him anticipate his opponents movement( he even intentionally didnt look Mon-El, purely relied on his training)
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Im not sure about the argument around Batman's instanceStreet level characters performed some feats that arent alighed wtih their histories is a comic trope, which we have seen a lot.
Batman withstood Atomic Skull's nuclear explosion, for example. Did it happen on panel? Absolutely yes. Does it mean Batman, the character itself, has nuclear-level durability? I dont think so
Same logic applied here. Did Batman dodge HV after it was fired? Absolute yes. But it certainly doesnt mean Batman has lightspeed reaction/speed/reflex. Whether you chalk it up to skill or artist just wanted to show a sexy fight scene really doesnt matter imo
There are tons of other examples that show training can cover the shortage of speed, strength, durability etc.
I mean look at this
https://imgur.com/a/2VA7s
Which even corroborated by his bio
https://ibb.co/W3TNrGYKarate Kid definitely doesnt have massive FTL speed/reflex, but his training made him anticipate his opponents movement( he even intentionally didnt look Mon-El, purely relied on his training)
The difference is Karate Kid is literally built around being so skilled he's effectively superhuman because technique let's him that because reasons. Batman doesn't have that same thing.
It seems only the people against what actually happened in the comic are pushing the "So you're saying Batman is lightspeed " fallacy.
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998Agreed. 👆
Same logic applied here. Did Batman dodge HV after it was fired? Absolute yes. But it certainly doesnt mean Batman has lightspeed reaction/speed/reflex. Whether you chalk it up to skill or artist just wanted to show a sexy fight scene really doesnt matter imo
Originally posted by Delta1938
The difference is Karate Kid is literally built around being so skilled he's effectively superhuman because technique let's him that because reasons. Batman doesn't have that same thing.It seems only the people against what actually happened in the comic are pushing the "So you're saying Batman is lightspeed " fallacy.
And for Batman, I think it just an old trope that street levelers can sometimes pull things that contradict their histories(I.E, sometimes they can react to attacks they shouldnt be able to react, Batman is one, Wolverine also deflected Cyclops' optic beams when theyre fired). Though if others think it was due to their skills, I wouldnt mind either
The major point being, street levelers can pull things they normally shouldnt be able to do. And yes, training can cover a lot of shortages, including speed
Originally posted by Delta1938You’re scrambling to avoid answering a simple question
Why instead of chalking it up to a one off of a single writer do you feel so compelled to create your own headcanon that goes against what is on panel? It's not even close to the first time non powered characters have done things that ridiculous, in fact I'd say there's more examples that ridiculous for strength, but do you make headcanon for them too?
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Agreed, thus why I personally think Karate Kid is a better exampleAnd for Batman, I think it just an old trope that street levelers can sometimes pull things that contradict their histories(I.E, sometimes they can react to attacks they shouldnt be able to react, Batman is one, Wolverine also deflected Cyclops' optic beams when theyre fired). Though if others think it was due to their skills, I wouldnt mind either
The major point being, street levelers can pull things they normally shouldnt be able to do. And yes, training can cover a lot of shortages, including speed
I don't know if Cyclops' blasts are lightspeed or not(don't what the energy is supposed to be) so I have no opinion on Wolverine blocking them. If they are lightspeed and it was speed blocking them, not skill, I'd just count it again as a rare high end feat. Like with Batman.
Originally posted by Delta1938Reread my posts. I haven’t made anything up. You’re just getting worked up trying to prove that this is a speed feat without saying that Batman can move at that speed. You leave yourself with two possibilities - either Batman is using superpowers that he doesn’t have, or Batman can now move at lightspeed.
I already answered. But you're literally making things up to substitute what actually occurred on panel.
Meanwhile I am content to just call it a skill feat because that’s the obvious intent of the comic and because that doesn’t fly in the face of Batman’s entire history. Nobody writing or within the comic believes Batman can occasionally move at lightspeed, but everybody probably agrees that he can dodge HV because he’s a ninja. This also accords with the general truth that highly skilled comic book characters regularly pull off physically impossible stunts. It’s just how skill works in a comic book.
Originally posted by Smurph
Reread my posts. I haven’t made anything up. You’re just getting worked up trying to prove that this is a speed feat without saying that Batman can move at that speed. You leave yourself with two possibilities - either Batman is using superpowers that he doesn’t have, or Batman can now move at lightspeed.Meanwhile I am content to just call it a skill feat because that’s the obvious intent of the comic and because that doesn’t fly in the face of Batman’s entire history. Nobody writing or within the comic believes Batman can occasionally move at lightspeed, but everybody probably agrees that he can dodge HV because he’s a ninja. This also accords with the general truth that highly skilled comic book characters regularly pull off physically impossible stunts. It’s just how skill works in a comic book.
.....are you lying to me or actually believe what you're saying? You're saying he dodged it with skill and yet he dodged it in that scene after it was blasted. You say the "obvious intent" was it was a skill feat. Show me where it's even suggested he dodged it by skill.
And you saying I'm getting worked up because I'm trying to prove it's a speed feat without saying Batman has super speed is just pure idiocy.
Originally posted by Delta1938lol but that’s exactly what you’re doing
And you saying I'm getting worked up because I'm trying to prove it's a speed feat without saying Batman has super speed is just pure idiocy.
At this point I’m not even sure that you know what point you’re trying to make. You’ve accused me of inserting head canon and showing my hand by merely observing that Batman doesn’t have super speed. Now you’re stuck arguing that Batman moved at lightspeed and also that Batman can’t move at lightspeed, because comics.
We both seem to agree that skilled characters can sometimes get away with the impossible. I said we were splitting hairs pages ago but you’re insistent that there’s something to argue about here.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
She kicked the rocks to move him to a specific spot to lasso him. She's blind, so can't aim her lasso.In short, she knew where he was going to be, and acted accordingly. Simple skill, used almost as precog, to cover her gap in stats.
You are making stuff up. We clearly see on panel that zoom was actively trying to be 4 people at once (when the rocks were shown going past him).
He wasn't shown trying to avoid the rocks. He was shown specifically trying to be 4 different people at the same time.
Originally posted by h1a8
You are making stuff up. We clearly see on panel that zoom was actively trying to be 4 people at once (when the rocks were shown going past him).He wasn't shown trying to avoid the rocks. He was shown specifically trying to be 4 different people at the same time.
So WW, whilst blind, was kicking the rocks between each Zoom? Come on now.
You even see her throwing the lasso at a spot with no rocks, just as he's there.
She used her skill to maneuver him into the spot she wanted him to be, then lassoed him.
Your interpretation also works - that she used her skill to distract him, thus stopping him from using his reflex speed. Either way, we are in agreement - she used skill to cross a gap in stats. The rocks prevented him from being able to react in time to the lasso - whether it be by distraction, or by moving him to a specific spot where the lasso was waiting (remember, she can't see him).
Good proof, thanks
Originally posted by Smurph
lol but that’s exactly what you’re doingAt this point I’m not even sure that you know what point you’re trying to make. You’ve accused me of inserting head canon and showing my hand by merely observing that Batman doesn’t have super speed. Now you’re stuck arguing that Batman moved at lightspeed and also that Batman can’t move at lightspeed, because comics.
We both seem to agree that skilled characters can sometimes get away with the impossible. I said we were splitting hairs pages ago but you’re insistent that there’s something to argue about here.
But it is laughable, so I can only conclude either you're lying, or you're stupid if you actually believe I'm getting worked up. So go ahead and believe it if you want, you're wrong regardless.
And what I said is that's WHAT HAPPENED. Pointing to Batman's history is a cop out at best, and is just wrong, unless they established Batman having skill to the point he's effectively superhuman, like Karate Kid, and I missed it. This is pretty much the same as him hurting or even KOing Top-Tier bricks, skill only goes so far, including the "pressure points" thing. Given the force some of these characters have outright taken, pressure points effecting them would still require strength far beyond human. And yet we don't blink when that happens. But you're saying it has to be skill that he dodged HV even though it was fired after.
Originally posted by Smurph
I’ll just point to Batman’s entire history, I guess.Alternatively, do you seriously think the intent was to give Batman a lightspeed feat?
You have no explanation for how the writer "obviously intended it to be skill." How does "Batman's history" even apply to that specific writer? Unless you read an interview of him saying he's sticking to Batman's history, which is actually possible (stranger things have happened) this literally doesn't answer my question of what in the scene even suggested it was skill.
I don't know what the writer intended, I just know what actually happened is he dodged it after it was fired, and nothing I recall or noticed even suggested it was a skill based dodge. Take it up with the writer. Me saying he did dodge light via speed(not skill) in a specific instance isn't proof he is that fast isn't a contradiction, because it's comics. You saying it had to be skill and can't point to anything in the comic but say "it was obviously intended to be skill" and not actually cite anything in the comic is headcanon since you can't point to anything in the comic itself to support your claim.
Originally posted by h1a8
You are making stuff up. We clearly see on panel that zoom was actively trying to be 4 people at once (when the rocks were shown going past him).He wasn't shown trying to avoid the rocks. He was shown specifically trying to be 4 different people at the same time.
Are you saying he was literally being 4 people at once or do you not know the word "afterimage?" If you meant the former, it's possible he can duplicate himself given powers, but where was it stated?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So WW, whilst blind, was kicking the rocks between each Zoom? Come on now.You even see her throwing the lasso at a spot with no rocks, just as he's there.
She used her skill to maneuver him into the spot she wanted him to be, then lassoed him.
Your interpretation also works - that she used her skill to distract him, thus stopping him from using his reflex speed. Either way, we are in agreement - she used skill to cross a gap in stats. The rocks prevented him from being able to react in time to the lasso - whether it be by distraction, or by moving him to a specific spot where the lasso was waiting (remember, she can't see him).
Good proof, thanks
So you want to troll?
You basically ignored THAT zoom was simultaneously being 4 people at once. This is WHILE the rocks were traveling past him.
Assuming that she lessened his attention just slightly then she has to have off the charts level speed just to pin point Zoom when he is actually 4 different people. Her perceptions have to be off the chart to since she has to perceive his motion in order to lasso him at the right moment.
Originally posted by Delta1938The later.
Are you saying he was literally being 4 people at once or do you not know the word "afterimage?" If you meant the former, it's possible he can duplicate himself given powers, but where was it stated?
Both were having conversations with Flash himself, who didn't even picking notice.