Originally posted by h1a8
But all of that is irrelevant. This thread is about who's faster. We use quantifiable feats to prove. Nothing what you said proves PG is faster THAN WW. So why post it? There is no purpose. You have to show PG being actually faster than WW.
The purpose is to show that your simplistic use doesn't work, because of the X factor that is speed. So it isn't pointless. You need to take a closer look and actually know comics.
Originally posted by Delta1938
By his own standards he's a troll, but I don't think that's his intention at all. It's more like a form of autism. I'm serious. I can't think of any other way to explain.
I know.
It's been said many times before, not just by you or me.
h1 is good for one thing - he unites the entire forum against him 😂
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The purpose is to show that your simplistic use doesn't work, because of the X factor that is speed. So it isn't pointless. You need to take a closer look and actually know comics.
Typo - I meant the X factor that is skill.
Again, with another example, Karate Kid:
Skill is a separate 'stat' from power and speed:
https://i.postimg.cc/x1Z78WS3/2UEoBS6.jpg
Supergirl has power - but no skill (and has a hard time with Equus):
https://i.postimg.cc/KvZCHPNB/ef8w2qA.jpg
Yet KK casually takes him apart:
https://i.postimg.cc/nz4wdr93/HFDOULM.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/SRm1H4Wk/NBZZc0T.jpg
Skill against Strength (so again, showing how DC splits skill as another stat):
https://i.postimg.cc/xTtBDXx7/RJGsRLI.jpg
Without looking, using pure skill, he redirects Mon-El to another solar system:
https://i.postimg.cc/gJFTq8jw/v3D0wrz.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/yNSGZv14/9BaMrCk.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/fRypwM1b/gmEweyi.jpg
In short, Skill is just a magical stat that writers use. I use extreme examples, of course, but that is to highlight how simply looking at pretty pictures and attempting to force maths onto them is wrong - one needs to actually know comics, and to know how the storytelling medium works.
It even has a trope name: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharlesAtlasSuperpower
With your Zoom example, which you use to showcase how WW is faster than PG, she is blatantly not as fast as Zoom - you can see what speed looks like (Zoom is so fast, he is'metro manning', as you so quaintly put it, into 4 people):
Were she comparable in speed, she too would be split into multiple people - her lasso would be split etc. But it isn't - so she is nowhere near as fast as him.
But she still caught him, thanks to skill. IOW, it is pretty useless as proof of her speed, because you cannot say how fast she was going.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The purpose is to show that your simplistic use doesn't work, because of the X factor that is speed. So it isn't pointless. You need to take a closer look and actually know comics.
You totally ignored what I said.
Who's faster is based off feats.
If PG is faster then she has to have better speed feats.
If she does then prove it. If she doesn't then WW is faster.
All this skill closing gaps to stronger beings is irrelevant as that doesn't settle the argument to whose faster.
Originally posted by h1a8
You totally ignored what I said.
Who's faster is based off feats.
If PG is faster then she has to have better speed feats.
If she does then prove it. If she doesn't then WW is faster.
All this skill closing gaps to stronger beings is irrelevant as that doesn't settle the argument to whose faster.
Yes, but how do you adjust for skills when you are considering your feats?
According to you, tagging Zoom is a speed feat for WW, and shows she is faster than PG.
But she was using her skills, together with her speed to capture him (as shown by the artwork where she is not metromanning). So how much of that feat is speed, and how much is skill? You cannot say.
So your example is irrelevant. What other feats does WW have to show she is faster?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Typo - I meant the X factor that is skill.Again, with another example, Karate Kid:
Skill is a separate 'stat' from power and speed:
https://i.postimg.cc/x1Z78WS3/2UEoBS6.jpgSupergirl has power - but no skill (and has a hard time with Equus):
https://i.postimg.cc/KvZCHPNB/ef8w2qA.jpgYet KK casually takes him apart:
https://i.postimg.cc/nz4wdr93/HFDOULM.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/SRm1H4Wk/NBZZc0T.jpgSkill against Strength (so again, showing how DC splits skill as another stat):
https://i.postimg.cc/xTtBDXx7/RJGsRLI.jpgWithout looking, using pure skill, he redirects Mon-El to another solar system:
https://i.postimg.cc/gJFTq8jw/v3D0wrz.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/yNSGZv14/9BaMrCk.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/fRypwM1b/gmEweyi.jpgIn short, Skill is just a magical stat that writers use. I use extreme examples, of course, but that is to highlight how simply looking at pretty pictures and attempting to force maths onto them is wrong - one needs to actually know comics, and to know how the storytelling medium works.
It even has a trope name: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharlesAtlasSuperpower
With your Zoom example, which you use to showcase how WW is faster than PG, she is blatantly not as fast as Zoom - you can see what speed looks like (Zoom is so fast, he is'metro manning', as you so quaintly put it, into 4 people):
Were she comparable in speed, she too would be split into multiple people - her lasso would be split etc. But it isn't - so she is nowhere near as fast as him.
But she still caught him, thanks to skill. IOW, it is pretty useless as proof of her speed, because you cannot say how fast she was going.
Wrong. You are interpretating the Zoom showing wrong.
Zoom wasn't split because of his speed (like in blur). He was split because he waited a significant amount of time for his image to register before moving to another location. He was purposely trying to appear as 4 different beings. Just like Thorn on Flash show when he appeared in the wheelchair and as emprisoned Reverse Flash simultaneously.
WW moved with continuous motion. Therefore she wouldnt ever appear the way Zoom did.
The fact that Zoom was operating in metroman perceptions proves WW speed.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yes, but how do you adjust for skills when you are considering your feats?According to you, tagging Zoom is a speed feat for WW, and shows she is faster than PG.
But she was using her skills, together with her speed to capture him (as shown by the artwork where she is not metromanning). So how much of that feat is speed, and how much is skill? You cannot say.
So your example is irrelevant. What other feats does WW have to show she is faster?
PG has no feats comparable or better. If you disagree then kindly post them. Remember, lack of feats is an automatic loss. So the weakest speed feat beats PG if she doesn't have any that's better.
Originally posted by h1a8
Wrong. You are interpretating the Zoom showing wrong.Zoom wasn't split because of his speed (like in blur). He was split because he waited a significant amount of time for his image to register before moving to another location. He was purposely trying to appear as 4 different beings. Just like Thorn on Flash show when he appeared in the wheelchair and as emprisoned Reverse Flash simultaneously.
WW moved with continuous motion. Therefore she wouldnt ever appear the way Zoom did.
The fact that Zoom was operating in metroman perceptions proves WW speed.
So if he waited a significant amount of time....then he wasn't all that fast. When he stops to appear as a discrete image, he is slow, so it isn't a speed feat to tag him.
ESPECIALLY with the rocks that WW is kicking.
Thanks.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So if he waited a significant amount of time....then he wasn't all that fast. When he stops to appear as a discrete image, he is slow, so it isn't a speed feat to tag him.ESPECIALLY with the rocks that WW is kicking.
Thanks.
A significant amount of time in his perception, not in ours.
That could be 4 nanoseconds for all we know and taking 1 attosecond to get to the next position (person).
Originally posted by h1a8
PG has no feats comparable or better. If you disagree then kindly post them. Remember, lack of feats is an automatic loss. So the weakest speed feat beats PG if she doesn't have any that's better.
But you haven't posted any speed feats. It is impossible for your feat to be a speed one, as skill was involved - skill which, as writers have shown, can turn humans into herald level beings.
Originally posted by h1a8Zoom wasn't split because of his speed (like in blur). He was split because he waited a significant amount of time for his image to register before moving to another location. He was purposely trying to appear as 4 different beings. Just like Thorn on Flash show when he appeared in the wheelchair and as emprisoned Reverse Flash simultaneously.
Originally posted by h1a8
A significant amount of time in his perception, not in ours.
That could be 4 nanoseconds for all we know and taking 1 attosecond to get to the next position (person).
So unquantifiable - but we know he is talking and hearing in real time, so at the very least, he is slower than sound.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But you haven't posted any speed feats. It is impossible for your feat to be a speed one, as skill was involved - skill which, as writers have shown, can turn humans into herald level beings.
Skill doesn't subtract speed. Flash using skill doesn't take away his speed.
Are you arguing that it takes no superhuman speed whatsoever to achieve that feat? For example, someone moving at human level speed can achieve it?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So unquantifiable - but we know he is talking and hearing in real time, so at the very least, he is slower than sound.
We all know that it is possible to talk in human perceived time while operating in metroman perceptions in comics. You are basically reaching and creating new arguments as you go. This is a sign of losing.
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
You would have thought moving so fast that appeared to be multiple people is considered to be using speed
No. He would appear as a blur or invisible if that was the case.
It is clear throughout the comic that he was purposely trying to act as 4 different beings (almost like a quadruple personality).
Originally posted by h1a8
Skill doesn't subtract speed. Flash using skill doesn't take away his speed.Are you arguing that it takes no superhuman speed whatsoever to achieve that feat? For example, someone moving at human level speed can achieve it?
I am not saying that, which you keep trying to imply I am. I am saying it is unquantifiable to the point of uselessness. 50% speed, 50% skill? 10% skill/90% speed?
When we already have the text saying how she is faster, but just needs to get ahead of him, and the art shows her using her tactical nous to scatter rocks in his way, whilst her lasso is already flying through the air?
So again, what speed feats does WW have that put her above?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85I can easily quantify the feat in speed without difficulty, giving a lower bound (proving that the feat takes greater speed to achieve).
I am not saying that, which you keep trying to imply I am. I am saying it is unquantifiable to the point of uselessness. 50% speed, 50% skill? 10% skill/90% speed?When we already have the text saying how she is faster, but just needs to get ahead of him, and the art shows her using her tactical nous to scatter rocks in his way, whilst her lasso is already flying through the air?
So again, what speed feats does WW have that put her above?
The rocks were already behind him when she launched forward. They went through the 4 beings.
The fact that he was 4 beings while it was all happening proves her speed.
Originally posted by h1a8
We all know that it is possible to talk in human perceived time while operating in metroman perceptions in comics. You are basically reaching and creating new arguments as you go. This is a sign of losing.
So you are using tropes, which is my point. I am trying to help you understand this.
Comic writers in comics use skill to make their characters appear faster, without them actually being that fast. Smashing your mathematics into it does not work, because of the storytelling medium's tropes - such as talking at high speed.
Originally posted by h1a8
I can easily quantify the feat in speed without difficulty, giving a lower bound (proving that the feat takes greater speed to achieve).The rocks were already behind him when she launched forward. They went through the 4 beings.
The fact that he was 4 beings while it was all happening proves her speed.
But you yourself admit that comic writers do not take such things into account. Characters can talk to each other, which does not necessarily mean they are slower than sound (even though the physics dictate it to be so).
So with that in mind, and knowing that writers ALSO use skill to make human characters like KK and Batman APPEAR lightspeed, how can you make any quantification?
