Originally posted by ODG
He did say he combined it. In his very next sentence where he explains what' just happened.
Again, do you realize your interpretation isn't the only one to read it, right?
Originally posted by ODG
FFS, focus: can you think of any reason why Wally might need to combine the Flash family's speedforce with the Speed Force Formula this time as opposed to the first time?
Oh, I'm focusing, thus I asked you do you think timestop is an attribute of Speed Force Formula or not?
Originally posted by ODG
There's no reason to ignore this request. You kept demanding I disprove your conclusion, after all. Somehow, I've got the burden of proof but whatever.
So it should be you who give us the proof and reasoning
Yes, you're the one who got the burden of proof because you inital evidence proven to be not as solid as you think it is. I.E, you need other proofs to back up your stance
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998No need to waste electrons begging the question.
Where? Oh, do you mean the next panel when Wallace experiences a drain and Wally makes the combining statement?Again, do you realize your interpretation isn't the only one to read it, right?
I do understand that a person can torture simple English and have different interpretations. The motivation behind why seems so pointless but, well, there you have it.
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998Keep avoiding the question I posed to you. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you already understand where I am going with this and are just hoping to stretch out the conversation to avoid confronting it. But I don't think it will reflect well on how you['ve approached this discussion.
Oh, I'm focusing, thus I asked you do you think timestop is an attribute of Speed Force Formula or not?
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998Yes, I did. And you cannot simply bring yourself to think of a simple reason why. Are you really trying to pretend it is beyond your ability?
Huh? You are the one who made "there maybe exists some reason for Wally to combine the SpeedForce of other Flash Family's to time stop, and it somehow will help my argument" thingSo it should be you who give us the proof and reasoning
Yes, you're the one who got the burden of proof because you inital evidence proven to be not as solid as you think it is. I.E, you need other proofs to back up your stance
Given that you're the one trying to argue Wally definitely was not combining the Flash family's speedforce with Johnny Quick's formula, I really don't think you can pass that baton to me. But it doesn't matter if it's "fair" or not because I can actually disprove your conclusion.
So answer the question: can you think of any reason why Wally might need to combine the Flash family's speedforce with the Speed Force Formula this time as opposed to the first time? If your answer is a simple "no", well then at least I can conclude you're certainly committed to this farce.
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
No, read it carefully, it states combining the formula and their abilities puts an extra effort to the Speed Force, accelerates its burning.I.E, Speed Force now needed to provide both of Flash family's powers and the Speed Force Formula power, thus it being burnt out faster
[B]Combing the formula and out abilities puts an extra strain on the Speed Force and---Accelerates the burnout
It actually spelled out to you what Batmanhattan was pushing against
You can feel that monster pushing against the Speed Force Formual
[/B]
Originally posted by ODG
No need to waste electrons begging the question.I do understand that a person can torture simple English and have different interpretations. The motivation behind why seems so pointless but, well, there you have it.
Originally posted by ODG
Keep avoiding the question I posed to you. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you already understand where I am going with this and are just hoping to stretch out the conversation to avoid confronting it. But I don't think it will reflect well on how you['ve approached this discussion.Yes, I did. And you cannot simply bring yourself to think of a simple reason why. Are you really trying to pretend it is beyond your ability?
Given that you're the one trying to argue Wally definitely was not combining the Flash family's speedforce with Johnny Quick's formula, I really don't think you can pass that baton to me. But it doesn't matter if it's "fair" or not because I can actually disprove your conclusion.
So answer the question: can you think of any reason why Wally might need to combine the Flash family's speedforce with the Speed Force Formula this time as opposed to the first time? If your answer is a simple "no", well then at least I can conclude you're certainly committed to this farce.
Originally posted by ODG
Sadly, no, I don't think qwertyuiop1998 agrees with that.
Ok, let me get this clear. You used this scan to prove that Wally timestopped Batmanhattan is a result from combining SFF and their abilities
Originally posted by ODG
Didn't he utilize the Speedforce of the Flash family to do so?
Originally posted by ODG
I never said he needed other Flash family members to do it. After all, the only other time he did it, he didn't need them. But here, Wally literally "combin[ed] the formula and [their] abilities":
However, I, DS, and Smurph all pointed out this could be referring to the strain they put on SF, not the timestop
Thus, your stance isn't back up by a solid evidence and you still have the burden to prove it, understand?
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998Between you and I, we already disagree how simple English ought to be treated. I understand that's the only leg you have to stand on but, again, I'm willing to go beyond that. Yet, you continue to disengage. How many times can I ask you to focus? One more time it seems.
Yes, it is simple English, which is why I'm so frustrated you can't understand it, despite me and many others have spent time to explain this to you 🙂Ok, let me get this clear. You used this scan to prove that Wally timestopped Batmanhattan is a result from combining SFF and their abilities
However, I, DS, and Smurph all pointed out this could be referring to the strain they put on SF, not the timestop
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998Neither is your's? You're just applying your own interpretation to how Wally used the simple word, "combining," and pretending that your interpretation is automatically right and overrides my own interpretation. Now, I don't just have to prove my interpretation, I have to disprove your's. Not the first time this has ever happened on KMC. I don't think my interpretation is unfair, much less wrong. In fact, based on the colloquial use and simple connotation of that term itself, I think my interpretation is more than fair. But, no, according to you, my grasp of the English language should be mocked. But, again, I'll do so if you can just focus on that.
Thus, your stance isn't back up by a solid evidence and you still have the burden to prove it, understand?
Whatever. Proceed to answer this question and let's bring this inane conversation to an end, please: can you think of any reason why Wally might need to combine the Flash family's speedforce with the Speed Force Formula this time as opposed to the first time?
yes/no
Originally posted by ODG
Sadly, no, I don't think qwertyuiop1998 agrees with that.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I thought he did, a couple of pages ago.
Originally posted by ODG
^ Yes, well. qwertyuiop1998 is using English differently, you see.EDIT: You page-breaking, sonuvabiscuit... 😠
That basically summarized the frustration I got from this discussion
ODG:"Look, I made a stance that is untenable"
Me:"Actually, this proof is not as solid as you think it is, here is why......"
*Spent a lot of time to explain why it isn't solid*
ODG:"No, you just don't understand simple English!!!!"
Me:
""
I can answer - no.
He didn't need to combine the other Flashes abilities with the formula to stop time. He could have simply done it with the formula alone.
The sentence about the combination from Wally is not talking about the time stop, it's a direct reply to Wallace asking why he feels like a drain.
Originally posted by ODG
Between you and I, we already disagree how simple English ought to be treated. I understand that's the only leg you have to stand on but, again, I'm willing to go beyond that.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I interpreted that to be Wally referring to their running. Like a royal we.
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
First of all, "combine" this word can be used to refer you do two things simultanesoulyhttps://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/combine
Originally posted by Smurph
I haven't read the comic, so maybe I'm pulling an h1 here, but it's hard to resist a grammar nerd debate.The simple English in this panel says that combination of Flash family powers and the formula puts a strain on the speed force.
It does not say that the combination of Flash family powers and the formula achieved the time stop.
Those are two separate ideas.
Originally posted by Smurph
I have no horse in this race because idgaf about either character or the thread, really.My two cents are that you're reading intent into the word "combine" as if Wally intentionally added powers together, but another way to read the scene is that Wally used a technique (the formula) that is particularly taxing on the speed force, in the context of a fight where the speed force was already being taxed by the whole Flash fam.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No one is saying that Wally didn't combine/merge/mix the two.What is being argued is that the mixing resulted in an added strain on the SF, NOT that it resulted in a timestop.
A few pages prior, Wally explains that the SF is strained, with every superfast step the Flash family takes.
He uses the Formula.
Time stop ensues.
Wallace experiences a drain. Why?
The formula usage PLUS the Flash family's running, combined, is damaging the SF further, which is why Wallace feels a drain/like a drain.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I can answer - no.He didn't need to combine the other Flashes abilities with the formula [b] to stop time.
He could have simply done it with the formula alone.The sentence about the combination from Wally is not talking about the time stop, it's a direct reply to Wallace asking why he feels like a drain. [/B]
Originally posted by ODG
Neither is your's? You're just applying your own interpretation to how Wally used the simple word, "combining," and pretending that your interpretation is automatically right and overrides my own interpretation. Now, I don't just have to prove my interpretation, I have to disprove your's. Not the first time this has ever happened on KMC. I don't think my interpretation is unfair, much less wrong. In fact, based on the colloquial use and simple connotation of that term itself, I think my interpretation is more than fair. But, no, according to you, my grasp of the English language should be mocked. But, again, I'll do so if you can just focus on that.Whatever. Proceed to answer this question and let's bring this inane conversation to an end, please: can you think of any reason why Wally might need to combine the Flash family's speedforce with the Speed Force Formula this time as opposed to the first time?
yes/no
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Ok, if you want simple on panel, straight forward statement, you have thisWally used the Speed Force Formula, which he used to stop time once before
https://i.ibb.co/TtQ1rVN/6.jpgHe didn't say he combined it with other Flash family members' Speedforce to stop time, did he?
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Just finished my work, now back to my PC. I think I can elaborate my point furtherFirst of all, "combine" this word can be used to refer you do two things simultanesouly
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/combine
And then I think we all agreed that the Speed Force Formula is the thing has timestop attribute and it's a different way tapping into the Speed Force, as it stated in the comic
https://i.ibb.co/TtQ1rVN/6.jpg
I also think we agreed that Batmanhatan was timestopped in that scene
Then what he was tried breaking free from/pushing against?
The Speed Force Formula
https://i.ibb.co/R95cXN3/5.jpgWe also have the story multiple times referred the Speed Force was almost burnt out, and when Flashes used their speed/abilities, they put pressure on the Speed Force
https://ibb.co/HVBPkpC
https://ibb.co/9cvv8QP
https://ibb.co/g7p895HWe also see Jay still has his speed after Wally timestopped Batmanhattan, and when he felt exhaustion, he attributed it to the strain of the Speed Force, not just his own Speed Force/abilities
In summary:
1) The timestop is a property of Speed Force Formula
2) TBWL was timestopped
3) TBWL was pushing against Speed Force Formula
4) Speed Force Formula is a different way to tap into the Speed Force
5) Flashes burning the Speed Force out when they running/using their abilities
6) Jay still has his speed, so it's not like his speedforce was used to merge with SFF to timestop TBWL, and he attributed his exhaustion to the strain on the Speed Force, not just his abilitiesSo take above all into consideration, the word "combine" in the context is likely to refer the Speed Force now not only needed to provide the energy for Flash Family, but also the Speed Force Formula
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998Typical KMC quaneuvers. Mock my grasp of the English language, check? Ignore all attempts to move on from arguing English language interpretation, check? Gracelessly shift the burden of the proof, check? Move the goalposts, check? Degenerate the conversation with increasing trollery, check? Avoid all attempts to bring the conversation to a close, by avoiding a single, direct and simple question, check?
That basically summarized the frustration I got from this discussionODG:"Look, I made a stance that is untenable"
Me:"Actually, this proof is not as solid as you think it is, here is why......"*Spent a lot of time to explain why it isn't solid*
ODG:"No, you just don't understand simple English!!!!"
Me:""
Originally posted by ODG
Whatever. Proceed to answer this question and let's bring this inane conversation to an end, please: [b]can you think of any reason why Wally might need to combine the Flash family's speedforce with the Speed Force Formula this time as opposed to the first time?yes/no [/B]
Originally posted by DarkSaint85I appreciate your honest approach to this. But give qwertyuiop1998 a chance to answer this question. We all know you, DarkSaint85, haven't insulted my grasp of the English language. Neither did you demand I disprove your conclusion.
I can answer - no.He didn't need to combine the other Flashes abilities with the formula [b] to stop time.
He could have simply done it with the formula alone.The sentence about the combination from Wally is not talking about the time stop, it's a direct reply to Wallace asking why he feels like a drain. [/B]
Let qwertyuiop1998 keep throwing himself upon his own sword speak for himself.
Originally posted by ODG
Typical KMC quaneuvers. Mock my grasp of the English language, check?
Originally posted by ODG
That's a whole lot of chatter to avoid reading simple English:But yes, let's cite to dictionary.com instead.
Originally posted by ODG
Ignore all attempts to move on from arguing English language interpretation, check?
Originally posted by ODG
Gracelessly shift the burden of the proof, check? Move the goalposts, check? Degenerate the conversation with increasing trollery, check? Avoid all attempts to bring the conversation to a close, by avoiding a single, direct and simple question, check?
Burden of proof? You are the one who made a stance that backed up by untenable proof.
Avoid a direct and simple question? Ironically, considering this came from a guy who avoiding a direct and simple question of mine. And I actually made question first in this discussion
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Or, let me ask you a simple question, what do you think is the thing that stopped time? And was TBWL timestopped or not?
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998I literally answered both of those questions immediately. Please don't distort the course of conversation.
Avoid a direct and simple question? Ironically, considering this came from a guy who avoiding a direct and simple question of mine. And I actually made question first in this discussion
Originally posted by ODG
Whatever. Proceed to answer this question that I've posed like eight separate times and let's bring this inane conversation to an end, please: [b]can you think of any reason why Wally might need to combine the Flash family's speedforce with the Speed Force Formula this time as opposed to the first time?yes/no [/B]
Originally posted by ODG
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Avoid a direct and simple question? Ironically, considering this came from a guy who avoiding a direct and simple question of mine. And I actually made question first in this discussionSo maybe you should answer my question first, and we can move to answer your question....Since I actually asked you first and you avoided it
Now, don't you think it is time to answer a question I made in pages ago?
Originally posted by ODG
I literally answered both of those questions immediately. Please don't distort the course of conversation.
Originally posted by ODG
Can you honestly think of no reason why he might need to do so? Without sarcasm, just take a moment and ponder whether Wally might need to do so.... except when he did specifically attribute it to the Speed Force Formula combined with Flash family's speedforce:
Also, personal request from me, please don't stretch the page.
Originally posted by Smurph
I haven't read the comic, so maybe I'm pulling an h1 here, but it's hard to resist a grammar nerd debate.The simple English in this panel says that combination of Flash family powers and the formula puts a strain on the speed force.
It does not say that the combination of Flash family powers and the formula achieved the time stop.
Those are two separate ideas.
Then you were accusing me for mocking your English, while you are the one who first played the card and get pointed out multiple times that you are wrong in that stance?
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998Ok, you finally answered my question. I will now post three separate posts. So just wait until I am done.
But if it makes you feel better, then the answer is "no". The timestop is an attribute of SFFNow, don't you think it is time to answer a question I made in pages ago?
First, I do resent the insinuation that I am the poster who is engaging in bad faith discussion and never answered your questions. Sure, I dismissed several of the times you kept begging the same question over English language usage repeatedly, but I made it clear from the beginning that I dislike such conversation. Just don't accuse me of avoiding your other questions:
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Or, let me ask you a simple question, what do you think is the thing that stopped time? And was TBWL timestopped or not?Originally posted by ODG
The thing that stopped time was Wally using Johnny Quick's Speed Force Formula combined with the Flash family's speedforce. Yes, for several minutes (relative to the Flash family anyway).
Second, there is a very simple reason why Wally may have needed to tap into the Flash family's speedforce.
The first time he ever used Johnny Quick's formula in Flash vol.2 #91, he stopped time on his own. But that didn't prevent superspeedster, Max Mercury, from meeting with him during the time-stop and interacting with him for nearly an entire issue. Meaning someone who uses the Speedforce can ignore the timestop caused by Johnny Quick's formula.
And who do we have chasing them down in Dark Nights: Death Metal Speed Metal #1??? A crap-ton of Dark Multiverse versions of superspeedsters who are explicitly utilizing the Speedforce.
So if Wally wanted to time-stop all superspeedsters who used the Speedforce except for himself and his allies, he may have needed to add/mix/merge/combine Johnny Quick's formula with a little something extra. Namely, the Flash family's speedforce.
Somehow, you could never imagine such a possibility. I'm beginning to wonder if you even read Flash vol.2 #91.
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998Third, I never forgot my evidence. But I'm not above letting a poster continually fall on their own sword in a sad display of digging themselves into a deeper hole.
Oh, so do you remember what your evidence for your answer?
And the answer is, "yes." I knew it was happening the entire time. I'm a bastard. Sue me.
