Wally West vs Cosmic Thor

I've never read Flash #91.

^ I don't hold that against you, DarkSaint85.

Flash is a stupid character anyway. I hate him.

Originally posted by ODG
Ok, you finally answered my question. I will now post three separate posts. So just wait until I am done.

[b]First, I do resent the insinuation that I am the poster who is engaging in bad faith discussion and never answered your questions. Sure, I dismissed several of the times you kept begging the same question over English language usage repeatedly, but I made it clear from the beginning that I dislike such conversation. Just don't accuse me of avoiding your other questions: [/B]

Originally posted by ODG
That's a whole lot of chatter to avoid reading simple English:

But yes, let's cite to dictionary.com instead.

Originally posted by ODG
Second, there is a very simple reason why Wally may have needed to tap into the Flash family's speedforce.

The first time he ever used Johnny Quick's formula in Flash vol.2 #91, he stopped time on his own. But that didn't prevent superspeedster, Max Mercury, from meeting with him during the time-stop and interacting with him for nearly an entire issue. Meaning someone who uses the Speedforce can ignore the timestop caused by Johnny Quick's formula.

And who do we have chasing them down in Dark Nights: Death Metal Speed Metal #1??? A crap-ton of Dark Multiverse versions of superspeedsters who are explicitly utilizing the Speedforce.

So if Wally wanted to time-stop all superspeedsters who used the Speedforce except for himself and his allies, he may have needed to add/mix/merge/combine Johnny Quick's formula with a little something extra. Namely, the Flash family's speedforce.

Somehow, you could never imagine such a possibility. I'm beginning to wonder if you even read Flash vol.2 #91.

Huh? I actually read it back when I saw someone claimed Wally timestopped the entire world. And I actually found out the comic states the opposite
https://ibb.co/9T9Btmy

And don't you think your theory actually contradicts to your initial position, since Batmanhattan isn't connected to the Speed Force?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batmanhattan Who Laughs was time stopped.

Originally posted by ODG
Didn't he utilize the Speedforce of the Flash family to do so?

Originally posted by ODG
Third, I never forgot my evidence. But I'm not above letting a poster continually fall on their own sword in a sad display of digging themselves into a deeper hole.

And the answer is, "yes." I knew it was happening the entire time. I'm a bastard. Sue me.

Fourth, one of the things I really have grown to resent in retrospect is posters rewriting the history of the thread discussion. It's more than just a straw-man. Accusing me of saying something I haven't said or accusing me of something I didn't even start just to camoflouge/vindicate your own trollery is one thing:

Originally posted by ODG
Didn't he utilize the Speedforce of the Flash family to do so?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
He utilized speed force formula to do it, as he states in this scan
https://ibb.co/kX4n8FM

Originally posted by ODG
I never said he needed other Flash family members to do it. After all, the only other time he did it, he didn't need them. But here, Wally literally "combin[ed] the formula and [their] abilities":
https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Speed_Formula.jpg

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
No, read it carefully, it states combining the formula and their abilities puts an extra effort to the Speed Force, accelerates its burning.

I.E, Speed Force now needed to provide both of Flash family's powers and the Speed Force Formula power, thus it being burnt out faster

It actually spelled out to you what Batmanhattan was pushing against

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Just finished my work, now back to my PC. I think I can elaborate my point further

First of all, "combine" this word can be used to refer you do two things simultanesouly

https://i.ibb.co/ts6F1kr/8.jpg
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/combine

So take above all into consideration, the word "combine" in the context is likely to refer the Speed Force now not only needed to provide the energy for Flash Family, but also the Speed Force Formula

So I shouldn't be blamed for starting it. But I am owed your thanks for ending it.

Originally posted by ODG
[b]Fourth, one of the things I really have grown to resent in retrospect is posters rewriting the history of the thread discussion. It's more than just a straw-man.
[/B]

Originally posted by ODG
Accusing me of saying something I haven't said or accusing me of something I didn't even start just to camoflouge/vindicate your own trollery is one thing: Continuing the farce after I call it out and deconstruct it is another level entirely however.
So I shouldn't be blamed for starting it. But I am owed your thanks for ending it.

Originally posted by ODG
Sadly, no, I don't think qwertyuiop1998 agrees with that.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I thought he did, a couple of pages ago.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Yes, well. qwertyuiop1998 is using English differently, you see.

EDIT: You page-breaking, sonuvabiscuit... 😠

Oh, btw, I wanted to hear your explanation about this scan

https://ibb.co/9T9Btmy

Especially after you made this post

Originally posted by ODG
[b]Second, there is a very simple reason why Wally may have needed to tap into the Flash family's speedforce.

The first time he ever used Johnny Quick's formula in Flash vol.2 #91, he stopped time on his own. But that didn't prevent superspeedster, Max Mercury, from meeting with him during the time-stop and interacting with him for nearly an entire issue. Meaning someone who uses the Speedforce can ignore the timestop caused by Johnny Quick's formula.

And who do we have chasing them down in Dark Nights: Death Metal Speed Metal #1??? A crap-ton of Dark Multiverse versions of superspeedsters who are explicitly utilizing the Speedforce.

So if Wally wanted to time-stop all superspeedsters who used the Speedforce except for himself and his allies, he may have needed to add/mix/merge/combine Johnny Quick's formula with a little something extra. Namely, the Flash family's speedforce.

Somehow, you could never imagine such a possibility. I'm beginning to wonder if you even read Flash vol.2 #91. [/B]

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Huh? Since when told someone read a sentence carefully and provided the reasoning for it(which got proven right later on) is insulting?

Huh, aren't you the one who doing it?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Oh, btw, I wanted to hear your explanation about this scan

https://ibb.co/9T9Btmy

Especially after you made this post

Let me be less of a bastard and concretely announce that I have a very direct explanation for it that will make you think you are dumb for not thinking of it yourself. Can you win this Marvel No-Prize?

Or are you going to continue shifting all burdens for evidence/explanations onto me at every turn with thinly-veiled attempts at goalpost-moving? At some point, I will (indeed I must) be blamed for entertaining this chicanery.

Originally posted by ODG
More typical KMC quaneuvers. Rewrite the history of the conversation, check? Pretend you're not being insulting, check? Accuse the other poster of starting it, check? Oh, btw, I wanted to hear your opinion about whether Wally combining the Flash family's speedforce with Johnny Quick's formula makes sense or not in Dark Nights: Death Metal Speed Metal #1.

Let me be less of a bastard and concretely announce that I have a very direct explanation for it that will make you think you are dumb for not thinking of it yourself. Can you win this Marvel No-Prize?

Or are you going to continue shifting all burdens for evidence/explanations onto me at every turn with thinly-veiled attempts at goalpost-moving? At some point, I will (indeed I must) be blamed for entertaining this chicanery.

What do you think this "I have an explanation but I don't want to post them, because you're too dumb" post contributed for the discussion?

Posted them, and we can move on to what is concrete evidence and how it related to your original stance

^ Some self-awareness, please. But here we come to the most typical KMC quaneuver. Simply pretend that the entire course of conversation hasn't turned out utterly disastrous for yourself, check?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by ODG
^ Some self-awareness, please. But here we come to the most typical KMC quaneuver. Simply pretend that the entire course of conversation hasn't turned out utterly disastrous for yourself, check?

You know I actually could say the same thing about you, right?

I'm waiting for your explanation of this

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So more babbling and no reasoning and proofs?

What do you think this "I have an explanation but I don't want to post them, because you're too dumb" post contributed for the discussion?

Posted them, and we can move on to what is concrete evidence and how it related to your original stance

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

Oh, btw, I wanted to hear your explanation about this scan

https://ibb.co/9T9Btmy

Especially after you made this post

And this

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

And don't you think your theory actually contradicts to your initial position, since Batmanhattan isn't connected to the Speed Force?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

So you conceded that your "I'm chattering to avoid reading simple English" stance is wrong? 😉

1) Mock my grasp of the English language, check?
2) Ignore all attempts to move on from arguing English language interpretation, check?
3) Gracelessly shift the burden of the proof, check?
4) Move the goalposts, check?
5) Degenerate the conversation with increasing trollery, check?
6) Avoid all attempts to bring the conversation to a close, by avoiding a single, direct and simple question, check?
7) Rewrite the history of the conversation, check?
8) Pretend you're not being insulting, check?
9) Accuse the other poster of starting it, check?
10) Simply pretend that the entire course of conversation hasn't turned out utterly disastrous for yourself, check?
11) Rinse/repeat your trollery for another several pages to make it look like we're both equally at fault for how much this conversation has degraded, check?

Originally posted by ODG

Of course, if you want to do some retrospect, here is your original stance

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batmanhattan Who Laughs was time stopped.

Originally posted by ODG
Didn't he utilize the Speedforce of the Flash family to do so?

And that is the proof you brought for it

Originally posted by ODG
I never said he needed other Flash family members to do it. After all, the only other time he did it, he didn't need them. But here, Wally literally "combin[ed] the formula and [their] abilities":

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I interpreted that to be Wally referring to their running. Like a royal we.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosism

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Just finished my work, now back to my PC. I think I can elaborate my point further

First of all, "combine" this word can be used to refer you do two things simultanesouly

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/combine

Originally posted by ODG
That's a whole lot of chatter to avoid reading simple English:

But yes, let's cite to dictionary.com instead.

Originally posted by Smurph
I haven't read the comic, so maybe I'm pulling an h1 here, but it's hard to resist a grammar nerd debate.

The simple English in this panel says that combination of Flash family powers and the formula puts a strain on the speed force.

It does not say that the combination of Flash family powers and the formula achieved the time stop.

Those are two separate ideas.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No one is saying that Wally didn't combine/merge/mix the two.

What is being argued is that the mixing resulted in an added strain on the SF, NOT that it resulted in a timestop.

A few pages prior, Wally explains that the SF is strained, with every superfast step the Flash family takes.

He uses the Formula.

Time stop ensues.

Wallace experiences a drain. Why?

The formula usage PLUS the Flash family's running, combined, is damaging the SF further, which is why Wallace feels a drain/like a drain.

And you claimed you have an explanation for that scan but eve now you still haven't given it

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

Huh? I actually read it back when I saw someone claimed Wally timestopped the entire world. And I actually found out the comic states the opposite
https://ibb.co/9T9Btmy

And don't you think your theory actually contradicts to your initial position, since Batmanhattan isn't connected to the Speed Force?

Originally posted by ODG

Let me be less of a bastard and concretely announce that I have a very direct explanation for it that will make you think you are dumb for not thinking of it yourself. Can you win this Marvel No-Prize?

^ Surely this might be a new quaneuver that defies previous categorization: Pretend that the latter half of the conversation that disproved your stance didn't even happen, check?

I know KMC posters frequently dismiss on-panel feats with IDLI, IDH. But this might be one of the first times I've seen a KMC poster dismiss entire KM Cforum thread pages with IDLI, IDH. Dis sh1t be like da new meta. Surely, we must save this for KMC posterity:

Originally posted by ODG
^ Surely this might be a new quaneuver that defies previous categorization: Pretend that the latter half of the conversation that disproved your stance didn't even happen, check?

I know KMC posters frequently dismiss on-panel feats with IDLI, IDH. But this might be one of the first times I've seen a KMC poster dismiss entire forum thread pages with IDLI, IDH. Surely, we should save this for KMC posterity:

Here is my stance

But since you like to read some simple English, I will simplify it to you

1) Your "proof" is highly depending on the interpretation, to say the least.
2) The on-panel straight forward statements refer the timestop is a product of SFF, and Batmanhattan was timestopped by it

So which part did my stance get disproved? How did it get disproved? Based on what? Your still-not-giving explanation of the scan I posted?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Just finished my work, now back to my PC. I think I can elaborate my point further

First of all, "combine" this word can be used to refer you do two things simultanesouly

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/combine

And then I think we all agreed that the Speed Force Formula is the thing has timestop attribute and it's a different way tapping into the Speed Force, as it stated in the comic

https://i.ibb.co/TtQ1rVN/6.jpg

I also think we agreed that Batmanhatan was timestopped in that scene

Then what he was tried breaking free from/pushing against?

The Speed Force Formula
https://i.ibb.co/R95cXN3/5.jpg

We also have the story multiple times referred the Speed Force was almost burnt out, and when Flashes used their speed/abilities, they put pressure on the Speed Force

https://ibb.co/HVBPkpC
https://ibb.co/9cvv8QP
https://ibb.co/g7p895H

We also see Jay still has his speed after Wally timestopped Batmanhattan, and when he felt exhaustion, he attributed it to the strain of the Speed Force, not just his own Speed Force/abilities

https://ibb.co/q0DrkYY

In summary:

1) The timestop is a property of Speed Force Formula
2) TBWL was timestopped
3) TBWL was pushing against Speed Force Formula
4) Speed Force Formula is a different way to tap into the Speed Force
5) Flashes burning the Speed Force out when they running/using their abilities
6) Jay still has his speed, so it's not like his speedforce was used to merge with SFF to timestop TBWL, and he attributed his exhaustion to the strain on the Speed Force, not just his abilities

So take above all into consideration, the word "combine" in the context is likely to refer the Speed Force now not only needed to provide the energy for Flash Family, but also the Speed Force Formula

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Here is my stance

But since you like to read some simple English, I will simplify it to you

Dis n1gga still acting like I started torturing English language first, ffs...

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
1) Your "proof" is highly depending on the interpretation, to say the least.
2) The on-panel straight forward statements refer the timestop is a product of SFF, and Batmanhattan was timestopped by it

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So which part did my stance get disproved? How did it get disproved? Based on what? Your still-not-giving explanation of the scan I posted?

That you never read the first (and only other time) Wally performed such a feat is your fault, not mine.

Originally posted by ODG
Ruh roh, your stance?! What have I been addressing pages 6-9? It wasn't your actual stance??? I'm scurred... scared

Dis n1gga still acting like I started torturing English language first. 1) How many times have I tried to move us past semantics over word syntax? How many times have you tried to devolve this discussion back towards that vapid rhetoric?

Huh? the pages 6-9 actually is a progress of your stance( combining only means this definition!!!) got proven wrong? Which means this part of my stance is actually right?

Originally posted by ODG
2) No sh1t, sherlock. And the on-panel straight forward statements explain that Wally combined the Flash family's speedforce with Johnny Quick's formula as well. Because there's a legitimate, obvious reason why he would need to add/mix/merge/combine the Flash family's speedforce with Johnny Quick's formula.
That you never read the first (and only other time) Wally performed such a feat is your fault, not mine.

You claimed you have an explanation for this, but never posted

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

Huh? I actually read it back when I saw someone claimed Wally timestopped the entire world. And I actually found out the comic states the opposite
https://ibb.co/9T9Btmy

And don't you think your theory actually contradicts to your initial position, since Batmanhattan isn't connected to the Speed Force?

I giving you benefit of doubt maybe there exist some statements or comics which I overlooked that can provide the evidence of your Flash V2 91 example.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Huh? the pages 6-9 actually is a progress of [b]your stance( combining only means this definition!!!) got proven wrong? Which means this part of my stance is actually right?

What? you dodged the scan I posted(and other points in this post) multiple times. And I literally told you I read this issue(then posted scan)

You claimed you have an explanation for this, but never posted[/b]

I'm dodging? How many times did I have to ask my question to you before you deigned to answer? But then again, when you answered my prior question so confidently in the negative, and I proceeded to point out the painfully obvious... you absent-mindedly proceeded to dismiss the implication and just moved the goalposts to a new question. All this while admitting you never even read Wally's first Johnny Quick formula feat.

And, yes, I have a very direct explanation for it that will make you think you are dumb for not thinking of it yourself. Even moreso than before. But are you going to accept and swallow how narrow-minded you are? Or are you just going to move the goalposts again? Past is prologue, after all.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I giving you benefit of doubt maybe there exist some statements or comics which I overlooked that can provide the evidence of your Flash V2 91 example.

This isn't a constructive discussion. This is you just pretending you're not trolling. All over an innocuous question over a simple feat. You're dismissed.

Originally posted by ODG
It's not like I haven't already said that trying to break down the use of the English language invariably leads to the discussion itself breaking down. But now you're just hiding behind it as an excuse. Drop the act.

I'm dodging? But then again, when you answered my prior question so confidently in the negative, and I proceeded to point out the painfully obvious... you absent-mindedly proceeded to dismiss the implication and just moved the goalposts to a new question. All this while admitting you never even read Wally's first Johnny Quick formula feat .

Holy shit, you really just can't read, can you?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

Huh? I actually read it back when I saw someone claimed Wally timestopped the entire world. And I actually found out the comic states the opposite
https://ibb.co/9T9Btmy

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

What? you dodged the scan I posted(and other points in this post) multiple times. And I literally told you I read this issue(then posted scan)

You claimed you have an explanation for this, but never posted

Again

Originally posted by ODG
And, yes, I have a very direct explanation for it that will make you think you are dumb for not thinking of it yourself. Even moreso than before. But are you going to accept and swallow how narrow-minded you are? Or are you just going to move the goalposts again? Past is prologue, after all.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So more babbling and no reasoning and proofs?

What do you think this "I have an explanation but I don't want to post them, because you're too dumb" post contributed for the discussion?

Posted them, and we can move on to what is concrete evidence and how it related to your original stance

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Holy shit, you really just can't read, can you?

Again

But, yes, this is all my fault. I assumed you read Flash comics. Read more plz, kthxbai.

Originally posted by ODG
Mock my grasp of the English language, check? Whoa, deja vu...

But, yes, this is all my fault. I assumed you read Flash comics. Read more plz, kthxbai.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So more babbling and no reasoning and proofs?

What do you think this "I have an explanation but I don't want to post them, because you're too dumb" post contributed for the discussion?

Posted them, and we can move on to what is concrete evidence and how it related to your original stance

Also weren't you the one who brought up Flash V2 91, which I posted a scan from it that contradicts your theory?

Originally posted by ODG
[b]Second, there is a very simple reason why Wally may have needed to tap into the Flash family's speedforce.

The first time he ever used Johnny Quick's formula in Flash vol.2 #91, he stopped time on his own. But that didn't prevent superspeedster, Max Mercury, from meeting with him during the time-stop and interacting with him for nearly an entire issue. Meaning someone who uses the Speedforce can ignore the timestop caused by Johnny Quick's formula.

And who do we have chasing them down in Dark Nights: Death Metal Speed Metal #1??? A crap-ton of Dark Multiverse versions of superspeedsters who are explicitly utilizing the Speedforce.

So if Wally wanted to time-stop all superspeedsters who used the Speedforce except for himself and his allies, he may have needed to add/mix/merge/combine Johnny Quick's formula with a little something extra. Namely, the Flash family's speedforce.

Somehow, you could never imagine such a possibility. I'm beginning to wonder if you even read Flash vol.2 #91. [/B]

So, again, I suggest

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

I giving you benefit of doubt maybe there exist some statements or comics which I overlooked that can provide the evidence of your Flash V2 91 example.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So more babbling and no reasoning and proofs?

What do you think this "I have an explanation but I don't want to post them, because you're too dumb" post contributed for the discussion?

Posted them, and we can move on to what is concrete evidence and how it related to your original stance