For Stoic:
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Maybe, Stoic....maybe....you haven't actually read the sources you cite?Here you go, so we know you can't lie:
That's Nefaria's rating.
That is what the handbook you cited, says a 3 is.
That is your acknowledgement that you are able to read words, and can understand that the handbooks state he is a 3 which means he has some training, and is more skilled than normal.
As I said, sure, no foul. Let's use handbooks as you want. Now, as you seem intent on lying - where does it state in the handbook that the '3' rating is due to his powers? It clearly states that the 3 is due to him having some training.
Here is Abomination, who has incredible strength and durability. IIRC, he was also a Russian spy, so presumably had some training:
Here is Doc Samson, who possesses superhuman strength and durability, and is pretty smart to boot:
Here is Jarella (note the crop which includes her special skills):
Rick Jones, powerless:
Rick is notable, because he is an expert MA:
[b]So what is the summary, because you are obviously having trouble reading?
Skills are scored independently of physical stats. Just because Abomination is a class 100, or Doc Samson is superstrong and smart, doesn't mean anything. Just because Rick Jones is a mere human, doesn't affect his fighting skills.
You can be completely powerless one minute, and amped with the Phoenix Force the next - it would not change your fighting skills. You conflating fighting skills with effectiveness is wrong at best, and trolling at worst. Turning Rick Jones into A-Bomb, would not ramp his fighting skills up. Giving General Ross Rulk powers, does not ramp his fighting skills up.
Agreed 10,0000%, giving them additional powers would increase their fighting effectiveness. But that is NOT what the category 'fighting skill' is scoring.
One last scan - Galaxy Master. Strength, durability, energy projection, speed, all off the charts. Intelligence, too. Fighting skills?
Fighting skill =/= Fighting effectiveness. [/B]
Part 2, for Stoic:
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Edit: because I found these funny. Here is Korvac:Here is the Living Tribunal:
If, Stoic, as you assert, Nefaria's powers are what gives him a 3.....surely the LT and Korvac and Galaxy Master's off-the-scale powers and power levels should give them a higher fighting skill rating than Nefaria, no? Assuming your assertion is correct.
They should certainly be higher than Edwin Jarvis, elderly butler to the Avengers:
In the Living Tribunal’s case, and others that rank outside of the conceivable power ranges of characters like Count Nefaria, physical combat isn’t a thing. They battle on levels beyond fisticuffs. Your example is really neither here nor there, because no comparisons can be drawn between the two in terms of power level, or the amount of powers that the Living Tribunal has in comparison to Count Nefaria. I still see that you’ve chosen not to answer my question. If you did this would be over.
Is the Flash as much of a threat without his speed? Could Superman defeat himself if you took away his flight, speed, heat rays, and cold breath? Would he be able to defeat himself with all of those powers?
Of course not, because you’d no longer being talking about Superman, you’d be arguing a different character.
Being stri-ped of his powers, reduces Count Nefaria’s effectiveness. An idiot knows this, but then you couple that with his lack luster fighting skills, and that fighting skill score drops, because his overall effectiveness in combat drops. No more speed, no more laser vision, and I assumed that since his speed was reduced, that his flight was automatically stripped? If not he can keep it, it would just make things easier for Hercules, as his feet wouldn’t be planted.
He would clown Nefaria worse than he clowned Sentry. Why? Speed is gone, laser vision is gone. With them, he’d probably defeat Hercules, but even then, he’d be in for a huge fight. Without? The experience, and skill gap is simply too wide.
The Count would be picked apart by enough power to hurt him, and would simply be outclassed by a superior fighter. That’s just how things go. Having some experience isn’t enough for a fighter with tricks that you aren’t expecting to be launched.
By all means though, show me one on panel citing showing that Count’s extensive combat knowledge outside of upside fire arms. Please show me, if you can’t just drop it.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
For Stoic:
What you don’t seem to be able to wrap your head around, aside from the fact that you really don’t appear to know how to fight, is that this is Count Nefaria in name alone. With the decrease in stats, we may as well be arguing a completely different character. That is actually what this boils down to. So, while you claim to have been holding my hand this entire time, it is actually the opposite. You can’t grasp the simplest of things if you are unable to deduct Nefaria’s combat effectiveness in accordance to the OP. In short, you lack the ability to think on a critical level. Let’s all hope that you are never placed in a position of authority.
They took those fighting skills from the total package, (TOTAL PACKAGE) based upon how they performed overall with all of their powers, (ALL OF THEIR POWERS) strength, speed, dexterity, durability, etc. Nefaria is actually worse of a fighter than the Abomination is, or very close if you removed his speed. Did you take note, that like Nefaria, his strength Is a 7? Are we supposed to believe that Nefaria can shrug off Class 100 punches? Hercules is also a 7, or Class 100. But, wait so is Count Nefaria.
He also happens to outclass Nefaria in skill just like Hercules outclasses Sentry in combat skill. And yes, Nefaria would lose some of his combat effectiveness if forced to operate at much slower speeds. It’s like asking if the Hulk would be less dangerous if he were as weak as Spider-Man. Of course he would, that goes without question.
What I would like from you, is to find one citing showing this skill that Nefaria seems to have gained after gaining his powers. Just one on panel citing. Don’t bother, you won’t find shit, other than he’s okay with a gun.
According to his on panel history, he has no/zero formal combat training. You’re actually the liar here. You’ll jump into any or every hoop to avoid answering my question, even resorting to fleeing the scene only to launch more irrelevant bullshit just to avoid being wrong.
So then you propose that we compare the Living Tribunal to Count Nefaria while ignoring the fact that the LT doesn’t fight battles using combat skills. Uhm dur. Relevance?
It must eat you alive now that the lights have begun working in that brain of yours. Finally realizing that you aren’t even arguing for the same character due to the changes imposed upon him in this instance, and then not being able to piece it all together. Then you want to ignore the exact way that Hercules would deal with this bum ass fighter. He’d do the exact same thing that he did to the Sentry, who happens to be faster than Nefaria by a lot, and who happens to have similar fighting skills. Then you phucked up with General Ross, who actually happens to have enough skill to annihilate a character of the same strength as him with his bare hands before shooting the life out of him. Wait a sec… yeah he used fighting skill to do that. We on the other hand know that he’d be killed by the Abomination if he fought him in his human form. Turn Emil human and put him against General Ross, and Ross would kick his ass again.
Did the fact that you phucked up there make you pause? Of course not, you just shrugged it off like blockhead.
This is exactly why Hercules would beat the shit out of Count Nefaria. You know why? Because a person with some fighting skill would never defeat a pro fighter, only with Nefaria, he as nearly no skill, and would be as effective as Willy the no fighting skills mailman if reduced to human stats. Rick Jones would clown Nefaria if reduced to his level.
No low to average fighter, is going to beat a pro mixed martial artist. That simply isn’t a thing in any reasonable reality. What did I lie about again?
Originally posted by Stoic
What you don’t seem to be able to wrap your head around, aside from the fact that you really don’t appear to know how to fight, is that this is Count Nefaria in name alone. With the decrease in stats, we may as well be arguing a completely different character. That is actually what this boils down to. So, while you claim to have been holding my hand this entire time, it is actually the opposite. You can’t grasp the simplest of things if you are unable to deduct Nefaria’s combat effectiveness in accordance to the OP. In short, you lack the ability to think on a critical level. Let’s all hope that you are never placed in a position of authority.They took those fighting skills from the total package, (TOTAL PACKAGE) based upon how they performed overall with all of their powers, (ALL OF THEIR POWERS) strength, speed, dexterity, durability, etc. Nefaria is actually worse of a fighter than the Abomination is, or very close if you removed his speed. Did you take note, that like Nefaria, his strength Is a 7? Are we supposed to believe that Nefaria can shrug off Class 100 punches? Hercules is also a 7, or Class 100. But, wait so is Count Nefaria.
He also happens to outclass Nefaria in skill just like Hercules outclasses Sentry in combat skill. And yes, Nefaria would lose some of his combat effectiveness if forced to operate at much slower speeds. It’s like asking if the Hulk would be less dangerous if he were as weak as Spider-Man. Of course he would, that goes without question.
What I would like from you, is to find one citing showing this skill that Nefaria seems to have gained after gaining his powers. Just one on panel citing. Don’t bother, you won’t find shit, other than he’s okay with a gun.
According to his on panel history, he has no/zero formal combat training. You’re actually the liar here. You’ll jump into any or every hoop to avoid answering my question, even resorting to fleeing the scene only to launch more irrelevant bullshit just to avoid being wrong.
So then you propose that we compare the Living Tribunal to Count Nefaria while ignoring the fact that the LT doesn’t fight battles using combat skills. Uhm dur. Relevance?
It must eat you alive now that the lights have begun working in that brain of yours. Finally realizing that you aren’t even arguing for the same character due to the changes imposed upon him in this instance, and then not being able to piece it all together. Then you want to ignore the exact way that Hercules would deal with this bum ass fighter. He’d do the exact same thing that he did to the Sentry, who happens to be faster than Nefaria by a lot, and who happens to have similar fighting skills. Then you phucked up with General Ross, who actually happens to have enough skill to annihilate a character of the same strength as him with his bare hands before shooting the life out of him. Wait a sec… yeah he used fighting skill to do that. We on the other hand know that he’d be killed by the Abomination if he fought him in his human form. Turn Emil human and put him against General Ross, and Ross would kick his ass again.
Did the fact that you phucked up there make you pause? Of course not, you just shrugged it off like blockhead.
This is exactly why Hercules would beat the shit out of Count Nefaria. You know why? Because a person with some fighting skill would never defeat a pro fighter, only with Nefaria, he as nearly no skill, and would be as effective as Willy the no fighting skills mailman if reduced to human stats. Rick Jones would clown Nefaria if reduced to his level.
No low to average fighter, is going to beat a pro mixed martial artist. That simply isn’t a thing in any reasonable reality. What did I lie about again?
So you assert that fighting skills are based on powers....
Yet ignore characters like Korvac who are way more powerful, yet have lower fighting skills?
Interesting.
Originally posted by Stoic
Yes because the character uses those powers while in combat. If you take those powers away they lose a percentage of their combat effectiveness. I thought we covered that?
So Korvac, despite scoring a massive 7across everything, is still less effective than Jarvis.
We've covered it but your thick head does not seem to understand that skills are completely separate from powers, and it rates skills not effectiveness, which is where you keep lying.
Korvak is like the LT. He never needs to throw punches and kicks when he can simultaneously bombard a characters mind while manipulating reality, energy, etc. Not the same thing. I thought we covered that?
Do you recall what happened when Korvak ran into Tony while at the same level? If we replaced Tony with Jarvis we would see a similar conclusion. If you’re really intent on finding out the truth, why not go and challenge a pro fighter that weighs 20lbs less than you? Let us know how it went.
Originally posted by Stoic
Korvak is like the LT. He never needs to throw punches and kicks when he can simultaneously bombard a characters mind while manipulating reality, energy, etc. Not the same thing. I thought we covered that?Do you recall what happened when Korvak ran into Tony while at the same level? If we replaced Tony with Jarvis we would see a similar conclusion. If you’re really intent on finding out the truth, why not go and challenge a pro fighter that weighs 20lbs less than you? Let us know how it went.
You're saying fighting effectiveness is based on their physical stats and powers.
So why isn't Korvac a 7, instead of a measly 2? Suddenly, you start to use it as skills rather than effectiveness, how hypocritical.
Why do you mix skill with effectiveness, when Marvel does not?
First off, don’t tell me what my argument is.
Combat effectiveness is the total package of what they are bringing to the table. If you have someone that can blink you out of existence, why would you be measured by physical combat skill? Nefaria uses the tools that he is given, as does the LT, and Korvak.
Do you understand the English language? Do you understand what combat effectiveness actually means, or has your brain run off to the twilight zone?
If you didn’t understand what I wrote. Read it again. Twisting my words due to your wokeness will only be ignored.
Originally posted by Stoic
First off, don’t tell me what my argument is.Combat effectiveness is the total package of what they are bringing to the table. If you have someone that can blink you out of existence, why would you be measured by physical combat skill? Nefaria uses the tools that he is given, as does the LT, and Korvak.
Do you understand the English language? Do you understand what combat effectiveness actually means, or has your brain run off to the twilight zone?
If you didn’t understand what I wrote. Read it again. Twisting my words due to your wokeness will only be ignored.
Which doesn't rely on physical attributes.
I'm not sure how much clearer I can be.
Originally posted by Stoicdepends on the weight division did you see Conor Mcgregor and the Mountain.
What you don’t seem to be able to wrap your head around, aside from the fact that you really don’t appear to know how to fight, is that this is Count Nefaria in name alone. With the decrease in stats, we may as well be arguing a completely different character. That is actually what this boils down to. So, while you claim to have been holding my hand this entire time, it is actually the opposite. You can’t grasp the simplest of things if you are unable to deduct Nefaria’s combat effectiveness in accordance to the OP. In short, you lack the ability to think on a critical level. Let’s all hope that you are never placed in a position of authority.They took those fighting skills from the total package, (TOTAL PACKAGE) based upon how they performed overall with all of their powers, (ALL OF THEIR POWERS) strength, speed, dexterity, durability, etc. Nefaria is actually worse of a fighter than the Abomination is, or very close if you removed his speed. Did you take note, that like Nefaria, his strength Is a 7? Are we supposed to believe that Nefaria can shrug off Class 100 punches? Hercules is also a 7, or Class 100. But, wait so is Count Nefaria.
He also happens to outclass Nefaria in skill just like Hercules outclasses Sentry in combat skill. And yes, Nefaria would lose some of his combat effectiveness if forced to operate at much slower speeds. It’s like asking if the Hulk would be less dangerous if he were as weak as Spider-Man. Of course he would, that goes without question.
What I would like from you, is to find one citing showing this skill that Nefaria seems to have gained after gaining his powers. Just one on panel citing. Don’t bother, you won’t find shit, other than he’s okay with a gun.
According to his on panel history, he has no/zero formal combat training. You’re actually the liar here. You’ll jump into any or every hoop to avoid answering my question, even resorting to fleeing the scene only to launch more irrelevant bullshit just to avoid being wrong.
So then you propose that we compare the Living Tribunal to Count Nefaria while ignoring the fact that the LT doesn’t fight battles using combat skills. Uhm dur. Relevance?
It must eat you alive now that the lights have begun working in that brain of yours. Finally realizing that you aren’t even arguing for the same character due to the changes imposed upon him in this instance, and then not being able to piece it all together. Then you want to ignore the exact way that Hercules would deal with this bum ass fighter. He’d do the exact same thing that he did to the Sentry, who happens to be faster than Nefaria by a lot, and who happens to have similar fighting skills. Then you phucked up with General Ross, who actually happens to have enough skill to annihilate a character of the same strength as him with his bare hands before shooting the life out of him. Wait a sec… yeah he used fighting skill to do that. We on the other hand know that he’d be killed by the Abomination if he fought him in his human form. Turn Emil human and put him against General Ross, and Ross would kick his ass again.
Did the fact that you phucked up there make you pause? Of course not, you just shrugged it off like blockhead.
This is exactly why Hercules would beat the shit out of Count Nefaria. You know why? Because a person with some fighting skill would never defeat a pro fighter, only with Nefaria, he as nearly no skill, and would be as effective as Willy the no fighting skills mailman if reduced to human stats. Rick Jones would clown Nefaria if reduced to his level.
No low to average fighter, is going to beat a pro mixed martial artist. That simply isn’t a thing in any reasonable reality. What did I lie about again?