Originally posted by StoicThat’s while possessing all of that speed. If he was slowed down to Thor’s level of speed, he would have inevitably have been crushed. Nefaria was never a hardened warrior. Ignore that fact and we really have nothing else to discuss.
Look at his reaction. He exudes a fighters confidence, while nearly losing his shit over being bowled over. Is that the look of a confident fighter? Nope? And you’d be right to say no.
Originally posted by Stoic
And that is where we disagree. If a combatant can hurt their opponent they can win.Let’s get back to good old Count Nefaria.
Count Nefaria has a combat score of 3, which is what he ranks in at in battle while using all of his abilities. Take note of the While using all abilities.
Rated 3, no more no less while under optimal conditions, and again while no nerfs are placed upon him.
If we took away 3 of those abilities, which are speed, flight, and laser vision, would this diminish his combat performance against a slower, -slightly weaker opponent that can not defend against his eye blasts?
Without the Flash’s speed, is he as dangerous? If we were to reduce the Flash’s speed to Hercules level, would he be as dangerous?
If we reduced Superman’s speed to Hercules level, took away his eye blasts, freeze breath, and his ability to fly, would he, or would he not be in for a world of trouble if he fought himself without losing the use of those abilities?
In this case, Count Nefaria has had his speed reduced to that of Hercules, he has lost his laser vision, and his ability to fly. Does that reduce his combat performance if we were to place him in a battle against another Count Nefaria that has his full speed, flight, and eye lasers?
We know that Hercules can hurt him, has a considerable skill edge in terms of actual technical fighting knowledge, and is not averse to using fouls. Most people would automatically believe that Hercules would win. If Hercules could not hurt Count Nefaria, I’d never pick Hercules to win. My response is that it would be a good fight, but Hercules would eventually lose do to eventually being tagged by a guy that he did not have the power to hurt.
The strength gap isn’t that great in this case though. Why? Because we know that Hercules can actually hurt him.
Originally posted by Stoic
And that is where we disagree. If a combatant can hurt their opponent they can win.Let’s get back to good old Count Nefaria.
Count Nefaria has a combat score of 3, which is what he ranks in at in battle while using all of his abilities. Take note of the While using all abilities.
Rated 3, no more no less while under optimal conditions, and again while no nerfs are placed upon him.
If we took away 3 of those abilities, which are speed, flight, and laser vision, would this diminish his combat performance against a slower, -slightly weaker opponent that can not defend against his eye blasts?
Without the Flash’s speed, is he as dangerous? If we were to reduce the Flash’s speed to Hercules level, would he be as dangerous?
If we reduced Superman’s speed to Hercules level, took away his eye blasts, freeze breath, and his ability to fly, would he, or would he not be in for a world of trouble if he fought himself without losing the use of those abilities?
In this case, Count Nefaria has had his speed reduced to that of Hercules, he has lost his laser vision, and his ability to fly. Does that reduce his combat performance if we were to place him in a battle against another Count Nefaria that has his full speed, flight, and eye lasers?
We know that Hercules can hurt him, has a considerable skill edge in terms of actual technical fighting knowledge, and is not averse to using fouls. Most people would automatically believe that Hercules would win. If Hercules could not hurt Count Nefaria, I’d never pick Hercules to win. My response is that it would be a good fight, but Hercules would eventually lose do to eventually being tagged by a guy that he did not have the power to hurt.
The strength gap isn’t that great in this case though. Why? Because we know that Hercules can actually hurt him.
Nothing in this post addresses the fact that you made up that the skill rating takes powers into account. So I am ignoring it, because you're just making up the fact that the skill rating takes powers into account.
Simple.
You still didn’t answer the question. You aren’t able to think on a critical level. It has you imagining things and attempting to tell me what, and why I brought it up.
He had no experience as a fighter. That one scan that I presented shows us everything. The experience that he got fighting was his run in with the Avengers. Prior to that, he had none.
It took you so long to come back, likely because you had to scour any and every comic with him in it to find out what I’ve been saying all along. You can’t won’t admit it, so you go back to moving into territory that has no relevance.
It’s the reason that you won’t answer my question. Just do yourself a favor, sit this one out.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Again - did I bring handbooks up? Yes or no?
When did looking up a characters canon history in a handbook become a foul? It is allowed, especially when cross referencing it with an on panel citing?
Do I seem to need to fit in with a crew? That’s that other guy. This guy doesn’t suck dick, and smile when the liars take center stage. That’s what you are, in case you missed my meaning.
My question is very much relevant to the topic. So much so, that you will not answer it. Duck Dodgers is what you should rename your moniker. So afraid to be wrong. I pity you.
Originally posted by Stoic
When did looking up a characters canon history in a handbook become a foul? It is allowed, especially when cross referencing it with an on panel citing?Do I seem to need to fit in with a crew? That’s that other guy. This guy doesn’t suck dick, and smile when the liars take center stage. That’s what you are, in case you missed my meaning.
My question is very much relevant to the topic. So much so, that you will not answer it. Duck Dodgers is what you should rename your moniker. So afraid to be wrong. I pity you.
It's no foul.
The handbook says he has had some training. You have a problem with it, not my problem.
Maybe, Stoic....maybe....you haven't actually read the sources you cite?
Here you go, so we know you can't lie:
That's Nefaria's rating.
That is what the handbook you cited, says a 3 is.
Originally posted by Stoic
Some training that he never took. Find me one citing that states or shows that he took any form of training.
That is your acknowledgement that you are able to read words, and can understand that the handbooks state he is a 3 which means he has some training, and is more skilled than normal.
As I said, sure, no foul. Let's use handbooks as you want. Now, as you seem intent on lying - where does it state in the handbook that the '3' rating is due to his powers? It clearly states that the 3 is due to him having some training.
Here is Abomination, who has incredible strength and durability. IIRC, he was also a Russian spy, so presumably had some training:
Here is Doc Samson, who possesses superhuman strength and durability, and is pretty smart to boot:
Here is Jarella (note the crop which includes her special skills):
Rick Jones, powerless:
Rick is notable, because he is an expert MA:
So what is the summary, because you are obviously having trouble reading?
Skills are scored independently of physical stats. Just because Abomination is a class 100, or Doc Samson is superstrong and smart, doesn't mean anything. Just because Rick Jones is a mere human, doesn't affect his fighting skills.
You can be completely powerless one minute, and amped with the Phoenix Force the next - it would not change your fighting skills. You conflating fighting skills with effectiveness is wrong at best, and trolling at worst. Turning Rick Jones into A-Bomb, would not ramp his fighting skills up. Giving General Ross Rulk powers, does not ramp his fighting skills up.
Agreed 10,0000%, giving them additional powers would increase their fighting effectiveness. But that is NOT what the category 'fighting skill' is scoring.
One last scan - Galaxy Master. Strength, durability, energy projection, speed, all off the charts. Intelligence, too. Fighting skills?
Fighting skill =/= Fighting effectiveness.
Edit: because I found these funny. Here is Korvac:
Here is the Living Tribunal:
If, Stoic, as you assert, Nefaria's powers are what gives him a 3.....surely the LT and Korvac and Galaxy Master's off-the-scale powers and power levels should give them a higher fighting skill rating than Nefaria, no? Assuming your assertion is correct.
They should certainly be higher than Edwin Jarvis, elderly butler to the Avengers:
https://www.marvel.com/characters/count-nefaria
🙂 skill rating 6
The only defense going for Count Nefaria is a slight strength gap. If that were a thing, Batman should’ve never defeated Grundy, or should Daredevil be able to hurt Mr. Hyde, and go onto win.
When you strip a character of their powers, or a portion of their powers, you in fact are no longer talking about the same character, which in turn calls for you to ignore whatever they did while using the powers that are now stripped of them in this case.
This logic seems to have been ignored. Should a MOD step in to decide? Hercules would destroy him at the reduced speeds that are being ignored.
Hercules pulled the Sentry out of the air, and caught his punch. The Sentry appeared to be fine, and also capable of far exceeding Count Nefaria’s speed. The only difference between the two is that the Sentry is a make believe character that can come back after Bob has had time to adjust, after the experience. The lumps that you see on the Sentry can be ignored by him, it really depends on how Bob see’s things going. He can completely ignore the Power cosmic, like he did with Terrax, he reversed any and all effects from the Molecule Man, he learned how Owen does what he does, and turned the tables on him. The Sentry can be immensely powerful. However, it really depends on how well he’s doing from a psychological perspective.
All the same, I believe the Sentry that effortlessly defeated Terrax would match up well with Count Nefaria, but let’s not forget that Hercules could no contest Terrax as well. He replaced Atlas. Hercules has incalculable strength, just like Count Nefaria. He can hurt him, he outclasses him.
These are the reasons that he wins. He outclasses Count Nefaria, who if facing Hercules according to science should be oftentimes left looking like he had two left feet, because Hercules would constantly be outscoring him. Longer reach, huge experience gap, etc.. Hercules for many reasons takes this. It wouldn’t even be close.
Arguing for the Count is easy as long as you’re unwilling to think that he isn’t critically nerfed here. Keep on keepin on though… I guess?