Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Superman was tapping the powers that he never had used/accessed beforehttps://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/RogerSternNovelisation.jpg
So he tapped into his energy 'reserves' to give his weakened body more strength? This also mentions Doomsday getting weaker. So Superman killed a weakened Doomsday.
Originally posted by carver9
So he tapped into his energy 'reserves' to give his weakened body more strength? Thus also mentions Doomsday getting weaker. So Superman killed a weakened Doomsday.
Bump.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well. Since you keep harping on with the 'minor' gas station explosion...[QUOTE=17436969]Originally posted by DarkSaint85
[B]Aren't you the one who argued a day or so ago, that Wolverine being kicked through some trees doesn't mean anything about the damage caused?So why would Superman being hit by those pillars mean anything? I do like that you are ignoring he was pretty hurt even before they met those pillars (whilst DD is laughing at him):
And conveniently ignore the later explosion:
Where he was still conscious and holding on. A bit larger than a gas station, no?
Strange how a smaller explosion KOs him, but a much larger one doesn't, even after he's been fighting and been beaten up.
How do you explain that?
As for how it wasn't a weakened Supes:
I mean, what is your take? That a Superman who is barely able to stay conscious, can't even keep his eyes open, is capable of outputting more damage than a Superman who is fresh as a daisy 50 pages of fighting earlier?
My take - he was dying, then dynamically ramped his strength up for the final blow to kill him. So he was weaker - until he wasn't and ramped all the way back up. [/B][/QUOTE]
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Doomsday was weakened because Superman was hurting him......which is basically the whole point of Superman going into his Super-Kryptonian mode. Because then, he finally managed to hurt/weaken Doomsday
It's not a super kryptonian mode. He used his energy reserves to give his weakened, damaged body more strength. This doesn't mean he was more powerful than before, he just got a adrenaline boost to give him enough strength to take out a weakened character. Any character in a prolong fight with an equal would weakened and it happened to Doomsday.
Originally posted by carver9
It's not a super kryptonian mode. He used his energy reserves to give his weakened, damaged body more strength. This doesn't mean he was more powerful than before, he just got a adrenaline boost to give him enough strength to take out a weakened character. Any character in a prolong fight with an equal would weakened and it happened to Doomsday.
So why did a gas station take Superman out earlier, but now, a more powerful explosion didn't? And then after, a whole series of explosions PLUS with a stomach wound etc didn't take him out?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So why did a gas station take Superman out earlier, but now, a more powerful explosion didn't? And then after, a whole series of explosions PLUS with a stomach wound etc didn't take him out?
Superman wasn't hit by that explosion. It doesn't even show him being hit by the attack.
Originally posted by carver9
It's not a super kryptonian mode. He used his energy reserves to give his weakened, damaged body more strength. This doesn't mean he was more powerful before, he just got a adrenaline boost to give him enough strength to take out a weakened character. Any character in a prolong fight with an equal would weakened and it happened to Doomsday.
His power is dependent on his brain – which is why when he he robbed of his memories, he is depowered. Once Darkseid tells him he is his son, and his powers – he suddenly regains them. The mother box fully heals him and he is back in full force.
https://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/MentalRegulations1.jpg
https://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/MentalRegulations2.jpg
https://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/MentalRegulations3.jpg
https://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/MentalRegulations4.jpg
https://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/MentalRegulations5.jpg
https://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/MentalRegulations6.jpg
As for Doomsday was weakened by prolong fight
One of Doomsday's abilities
"indefatigable(never becoming tired)"
https://ibb.co/2Swcjjj
Originally posted by carver9
Superman wasn't hit by that explosion. It doesn't even show him being hit by the attack.
😂
First, ask yourself - how did the explosion occur?
Answer: it was caused by a spark from an electrical line. That Doomsday's foot caused:
Check that second scan out. I have circled Doomsday and Supes in blue.
They were at ground zero, and the explosion blew them upwards and out.
Check the 5th scan out. Explosions, all around him. Another one hits him as he shields the puny humans.
Yeah, he was hit, multiple times, by multiple explosions, after getting stabbed in the gut etc.
But 60 pages earlier, when he was much fresher, he was.....KOd by a 'minor' gas station explosion. Explain.
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Superman's powers are always dependant on his brain, we have the discussion over and over again on this forumhttps://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/MentalRegulations1.jpg
https://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/MentalRegulations2.jpg
https://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/MentalRegulations3.jpg
https://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/MentalRegulations4.jpg
https://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/MentalRegulations5.jpg
https://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/MentalRegulations6.jpgAs for Doomsday was weakened by prolong fight
One of Doomsday's abilities
"indefatigable(never becoming tired)"
https://ibb.co/2Swcjjj
Who said anything about Superman abilities? I'm saying, in this instance, he sug into his reserves for a boost to help his broken body fight Doomsday.
Why are you posting Doomsday abilities when in the scan you posted, it mentioned him weakening which was obviously due to fighting Superman for so long?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
😂First, ask yourself - how did the explosion occur?
Answer: it was caused by a spark from an electrical line. That Doomsday's foot caused:
Check that second scan out. I have circled Doomsday and Supes in blue.
They were at ground zero, and the explosion blew them upwards and out.
Check the 5th scan out. Explosions, all around him. Another one hits him as he shields the puny humans.
Yeah, he was hit, multiple times, by multiple explosions, after getting stabbed in the gut etc.
But 60 pages earlier, when he was much fresher, he was.....KOd by a 'minor' gas station explosion. Explain.
The second scan shows them flying outside of the explosion. If they were ground zero, we wouldn't have seen them at all. Their bodies would've been engulfed by the explosion.
5th scan is him withstanding flames from the explosion, not the explosion. His body would t have been able to cover the humans if it was explosions hitting them.
Originally posted by carver9
The second scan shows them flying outside of the explosion. If they were ground zero, we wouldn't have seen them at all.5th scan is him withstanding flames from the explosion, not the explosion. His body would t have been able to cover the humans if it was explosions hitting them.
How is he outside...when he's still in the explosion 😂
Here, I have added a blue arrow to show there's still 'explosion' above him, lol:
Or are you saying Doomsday caused a spark, Superman had superfast reactions and outraced the explosion, but at the same time, didn't (because the explosion was still above him)?
Interesting. This is getting better and better. I was also unaware that flames made explosive noises like BRA-DOOM!
Originally posted by carver9
Who said anything about Superman abilities? I'm saying, in this instance, he sug into his reserves for a boost to help his broken body fight Doomsday.Why are you posting Doomsday abilities when in the scan you posted, it mentioned him weakening which was obviously due to fighting Superman for so long?
The scan I posted it was meant to describe the scene of Superman hurting Doomsday, which, if you read it the description and you will understand that
Superman grabbed hold of Doomsday's fists, forcing him back. He lashed out hard with the heel of his boot, catching the bone spur of Doomsday's left knee and snapping it off.
To Carver's post a couple pages back:
Regarding Doomsday's speed you referenced:
He's cited at moving half the speed of sound by *some* observer, but, we *see* Doomsday cover a distance of some 50 miles from a Metropolis mile marker to the skyline of the city in the span it takes that same obverver to finish two sentences even though it ought have taken Doomsday between 7 to 8 minutes to cover that distance moving at half the speed of sound.
In any case this is long distance travel speed, not combat... There's also nothing to indicate this is Doomsday's maximum effort, you simply drew your own conclusion there.
"Even at speeds below the speed of sound, Superman couldn't even catch him."
You don't know that Doomsday was hopping at the same speed in the fighting as he was stated to be when bounding towards Metropolis, he could have been moving faster... You don't even know if the stated speed is accurate and reliable as the announced half/sound speed is contradicted by the on panel presentation demonstrating Doomsday was moving much faster than that... And... Superman *did* catch him, with an overhand at the start of the next issue... O o Superman *also* states/thinks "I hear you kid I just thought one of the Leaguers might be able to..." So whatever you think Superman should have done or could have done in that situation is irrelevent. You drew your own conclusions about Doomsday's speed cap based off a single contradicted statement then tried to apply that in reverse...
*** During this same event, Superman casually flies from Washington D.C. to Ohio in something like 10-15 seconds when he arrives on the scene... 330 miles... Or about 103x the speed of sound... This has more merit compared to Doomsday's speed worth discussion than a single statement that was visually contradicted as soon as it was made...
"And Booster Gold was able to react to him as well."
Booster Gold "reacted" to Doomsday trudging towards him from ten feet away, not sprinting, not lunging, and even then Booster, barely pulled it off... What Booster didn't react to? Anything immediately following Superman getting kicked through the house getting his head slammed into a tree, Doomsday rushing the League from a smoke cloud, or anything following getting caught by the neck... The only reason people ever put Flash and Doomsday in the same sentence before Doomsday Wars is because Booster made the comparison.
"And it's funny Dark throws up Superman withstanding a punch by Doomsday but moments after that getting the wind kicked out of him"
A side thrust kick is factually *far* more powerful a combat technique than a lazy gut punch *inside bondage restraints restricting upper body movement*. The average combat competitor trains taking uppercuts to the gut, but not side thrust kicks, because one of those can reasonably be done and the other is asking for injury. Beyond that, posters here already explored the idea that Doomsday was just taking it casual until he saw Supes take a punch of his; This seems like a reasonable suggestion.
*Beyond that*, Byrne's Superman is a character that explores the aspects of having mentality driven limiters and limit breakers depending on his mind and mood.
You keep insisting Doomsday was not holding back, but Idk if that's true... Like, I don't think he was totally taking it easy on the Leaguers but I do think he was playing. He could have killed Gardner and he drops him, he could have killed Beetle and he tosses him away. Twice he could have finished Supes and he walked. The entire fight he's laughing his ass off. Booster either has an insanely "pis" driven moment there, or Dooms was playing games because it gave him joy and Blue Beetle almost bit it. Either way, Idk how you can reference Booster Gold as some sort of bar here.
"Superman durability in DOS was trash."
Read the fight again...
-Superman begins the event shrugging off weapons from Warworld without a literal scratch (didn't even dust his boots for television).
-The Doomsday gut kick is an "Idk if I've ever been hit that hard" moment right off the bat.
-In the energy blast sequence,Supes pours on the heat vision so long that everyone else either runs out of juice or fades from exhaustion in the effort with heat vision being one of Superman's more taxing abilites (something that comes up against the Doomsday clone army years later where he unloads his beams and gets winded)...
- "Is it possible this guy's getting stronger" comes up *after* the "Idk if I've ever been hit that hard" moment.
Supes-"Maxima/hit him with everything you've got!"/Gets tagged flush in the face.
Supes (immediately after that)- "I don't know how much longer I can keep this up"
............Then the gas station blows.........
It wasn't just some random one off moment where Supes got caught in an explosion and went out, he was already taking heavyweight punches and went heavy in the paint with one of his more taxing abilities, all before that ever happened.
The pillars....
Before the pillars:
Supes-"This is... Insane! I'd swear the harder I fight... the more Doomsday like it!
Supes-"Gotta pull myself together. Got to end this."
Supes-"I must be getting punchy!"
Supes-"This *unngh* is not *ow* getting any easier! Just hitting Doomsday hurts... And he doesn't seem to have weakened... One Iota!
Supes-"This is... Just wearing me down. Got to... Change my tactics."
Guardian- "You took some terrible hits in the collapse--- why didn't you fly out of it?"/ Supes-"Too wasted."
I don't see how you could read this story and somehow come to the conclusion that it was giant steel hard superstructures alone that knocked Supes out and not the accumulative effect of the fight itself even though that's what was established.
"Superman was terrified of Doomsday reaching Metropolis and only had enough strength to hurl Doomsday a few 100 miles and admitted he probably weighed a ton"
That's not what happened.. Superman said he needed to keep Doomsday off balance and stay out of his reach, then said he threw doomsday "at a few hundred miles per hour" into some hills in an attempt to "soften him up." It was an intential strategy, it was reference to speed and at no point does Supes say he only had enough strength for that alone... His assertion that Doomsday weighs close to a ton is just a random aside trivia fact thrown in.
"Doomsday overall wasn't impressive"
That is your opinion... Here's some others:
Supes- "Lobo's power, his rage, doesn't begin to compare to Doomsday's!"
Gardner-"So fast I didn't even see him mo..."
Bloodwynd/Manhunter-"Gods! What manner of creature can withstand such a blow?"
Booster-"He's... Faster than... Flash!"
Gardner-"There's no way Doomsday can still be standing/Supes-"Incredible! He took all that energy without missing a beat!"
**Narration- "Darkseid experiences the very first twinge of fear in his life."
**Narration- "The monster disarmed and slew hundreds of Green Lanterns and left a thousand more wounded and drifting across the vastness of space. The Corps would not know another such defeat for hundreds of Millenia."
Idc about the thread, but there's a lot of interpretation happening here that's either way off base or reeks of bad faith... Hulk got choked out by a snake, and a werewolf, and come coils, so he must be "trash" but Idk that's how these discussions are meant to be had... You can reasonably discern how impressive Doomsday is and was when it's referenced years later over and over again to drive that point home, you can reasonably discern, or you can choose not to.
"I mean, what is your take? That a Superman who is barely able to stay conscious, can't even keep his eyes open, is capable of outputting more damage than a Superman who is fresh as a daisy 50 pages of fighting earlier?"
Given how Byrne interpreted his version of Supes' powers to be not unlike Marvel's Gladiator, it's possible if not probable.
The second Supes committed to the idea of fighting with as much savagery as Doomsday, the good bet was that he had a momentary power up like crazy. Seems consistent with Supes learning to let go years later during O.W.A.W. ironically enough alongside Doomsday.
Originally posted by jinzin
"I mean, what is your take? That a Superman who is barely able to stay conscious, can't even keep his eyes open, is capable of outputting more damage than a Superman who is fresh as a daisy 50 pages of fighting earlier?"Given how Byrne interpreted his version of Supes' powers to be not unlike Marvel's Gladiator, it's possible if not probable.
The second Supes committed to the idea of fighting with as much savagery as Doomsday, the good bet was that he had a momentary power up like crazy. Seems consistent with Supes learning to let go years later during O.W.A.W. ironically enough alongside Doomsday.
https://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/RogerSternNovelisation.jpg
Originally posted by jinzin
"I mean, what is your take? That a Superman who is barely able to stay conscious, can't even keep his eyes open, is capable of outputting more damage than a Superman who is fresh as a daisy 50 pages of fighting earlier?"Given how Byrne interpreted his version of Supes' powers to be not unlike Marvel's Gladiator, it's possible if not probable.
The second Supes committed to the idea of fighting with as much savagery as Doomsday, the good bet was that he had a momentary power up like crazy. Seems consistent with Supes learning to let go years later during O.W.A.W. ironically enough alongside Doomsday.
My post should have said 'a Superman who is as fresh as a daisy 50 pages of fighting earlier, without any powerups
Because that is what Carver is asserting.
Originally posted by jinzin
To Carver's post a couple pages back:Regarding Doomsday's speed you referenced:
He's cited at moving half the speed of sound by *some* observer, but, we *see* Doomsday cover a distance of some 50 miles from a Metropolis mile marker to the skyline of the city in the span it takes that same obverver to finish two sentences even though it ought have taken Doomsday between 7 to 8 minutes to cover that distance moving at half the speed of sound.
In any case this is long distance travel speed, not combat... There's also nothing to indicate this is Doomsday's maximum effort, you simply drew your own conclusion there."Even at speeds below the speed of sound, Superman couldn't even catch him."
You don't know that Doomsday was hopping at the same speed in the fighting as he was stated to be when bounding towards Metropolis, he could have been moving faster... You don't even know if the stated speed is accurate and reliable as the announced half/sound speed is contradicted by the on panel presentation demonstrating Doomsday was moving much faster than that... And... Superman *did* catch him, with an overhand at the start of the next issue... O o Superman *also* states/thinks "I hear you kid I just thought one of the Leaguers might be able to..." So whatever you think Superman should have done or could have done in that situation is irrelevent. You drew your own conclusions about Doomsday's speed cap based off a single contradicted statement then tried to apply that in reverse...
*** During this same event, Superman casually flies from Washington D.C. to Ohio in something like 10-15 seconds when he arrives on the scene... 330 miles... Or about 103x the speed of sound... This has more merit compared to Doomsday's speed worth discussion than a single statement that was visually contradicted as soon as it was made...
"And Booster Gold was able to react to him as well."
Booster Gold "reacted" to Doomsday trudging towards him from ten feet away, not sprinting, not lunging, and even then Booster, barely pulled it off... What Booster didn't react to? Anything immediately following Superman getting kicked through the house getting his head slammed into a tree, Doomsday rushing the League from a smoke cloud, or anything following getting caught by the neck... The only reason people ever put Flash and Doomsday in the same sentence before Doomsday Wars is because Booster made the comparison."And it's funny Dark throws up Superman withstanding a punch by Doomsday but moments after that getting the wind kicked out of him"
A side thrust kick is factually *far* more powerful a combat technique than a lazy gut punch *inside bondage restraints restricting upper body movement*. The average combat competitor trains taking uppercuts to the gut, but not side thrust kicks, because one of those can reasonably be done and the other is asking for injury. Beyond that, posters here already explored the idea that Doomsday was just taking it casual until he saw Supes take a punch of his; This seems like a reasonable suggestion.
*Beyond that*, Byrne's Superman is a character that explores the aspects of having mentality driven limiters and limit breakers depending on his mind and mood.You keep insisting Doomsday was not holding back, but Idk if that's true... Like, I don't think he was totally taking it easy on the Leaguers but I do think he was playing. He could have killed Gardner and he drops him, he could have killed Beetle and he tosses him away. Twice he could have finished Supes and he walked. The entire fight he's laughing his ass off. Booster either has an insanely "pis" driven moment there, or Dooms was playing games because it gave him joy and Blue Beetle almost bit it. Either way, Idk how you can reference Booster Gold as some sort of bar here.
"Superman durability in DOS was trash."
Read the fight again...
-Superman begins the event shrugging off weapons from Warworld without a literal scratch (didn't even dust his boots for television).
-The Doomsday gut kick is an "Idk if I've ever been hit that hard" moment right off the bat.
-In the energy blast sequence,Supes pours on the heat vision so long that everyone else either runs out of juice or fades from exhaustion in the effort with heat vision being one of Superman's more taxing abilites (something that comes up against the Doomsday clone army years later where he unloads his beams and gets winded)...
- "Is it possible this guy's getting stronger" comes up *after* the "Idk if I've ever been hit that hard" moment.
Supes-"Maxima/hit him with everything you've got!"/Gets tagged flush in the face.
Supes (immediately after that)- "I don't know how much longer I can keep this up"............Then the gas station blows.........
It wasn't just some random one off moment where Supes got caught in an explosion and went out, he was already taking heavyweight punches and went heavy in the paint with one of his more taxing abilities, all before that ever happened.
The pillars....
Before the pillars:
Supes-"This is... Insane! I'd swear the harder I fight... the more Doomsday like it!
Supes-"Gotta pull myself together. Got to end this."
Supes-"I must be getting punchy!"
Supes-"This *unngh* is not *ow* getting any easier! Just hitting Doomsday hurts... And he doesn't seem to have weakened... One Iota!
Supes-"This is... Just wearing me down. Got to... Change my tactics."
Guardian- "You took some terrible hits in the collapse--- why didn't you fly out of it?"/ Supes-"Too wasted."I don't see how you could read this story and somehow come to the conclusion that it was giant steel hard superstructures alone that knocked Supes out and not the accumulative effect of the fight itself even though that's what was established.
"Superman was terrified of Doomsday reaching Metropolis and only had enough strength to hurl Doomsday a few 100 miles and admitted he probably weighed a ton"
That's not what happened.. Superman said he needed to keep Doomsday off balance and stay out of his reach, then said he threw doomsday "at a few hundred miles per hour" into some hills in an attempt to "soften him up." It was an intential strategy, it was reference to speed and at no point does Supes say he only had enough strength for that alone... His assertion that Doomsday weighs close to a ton is just a random aside trivia fact thrown in.
"Doomsday overall wasn't impressive"
That is your opinion... Here's some others:
Supes- "Lobo's power, his rage, doesn't begin to compare to Doomsday's!"
Gardner-"So fast I didn't even see him mo..."
Bloodwynd/Manhunter-"Gods! What manner of creature can withstand such a blow?"
Booster-"He's... Faster than... Flash!"
Gardner-"There's no way Doomsday can still be standing/Supes-"Incredible! He took all that energy without missing a beat!"
**Narration- "Darkseid experiences the very first twinge of fear in his life."
**Narration- "The monster disarmed and slew hundreds of Green Lanterns and left a thousand more wounded and drifting across the vastness of space. The Corps would not know another such defeat for hundreds of Millenia."Idc about the thread, but there's a lot of interpretation happening here that's either way off base or reeks of bad faith... Hulk got choked out by a snake, and a werewolf, and come coils, so he must be "trash" but Idk that's how these discussions are meant to be had... You can reasonably discern how impressive Doomsday is and was when it's referenced years later over and over again to drive that point home, you can reasonably discern, or you can choose not to.
First I want to say that it's good seeing you. Second, theres no evidence he is anywhere close to Flash speed. Those are hyperbolic statements. No one is saying he is slow but the speed that was quoted for him is right there on panel. Also, Booster Gold outreacted him and Maxima did as well and neither are anywhere close to Flash.
My entire point/post is primarily about DOS story and you're naming showings outside of this. 🤷
Originally posted by jinzin
"I mean, what is your take? That a Superman who is barely able to stay conscious, can't even keep his eyes open, is capable of outputting more damage than a Superman who is fresh as a daisy 50 pages of fighting earlier?"Given how Byrne interpreted his version of Supes' powers to be not unlike Marvel's Gladiator, it's possible if not probable.
The second Supes committed to the idea of fighting with as much savagery as Doomsday, the good bet was that he had a momentary power up like crazy. Seems consistent with Supes learning to let go years later during O.W.A.W. ironically enough alongside Doomsday.
Orrrre, Doomsday was weakened like it was mentioned in scans posted in this thread and Superman gained enough strength to take out a weakened Doomsday. Both of them were taxed in this right. Fresh Superman fought a fresh Doomsday, so that's clearly not the same thing.
Supes dug into his reserves while weakened and broken and took out a Doomsday that was weakened and hurt. Don't get why you're adding to this.
Dark, this is how it should've looked if Doomsday and Superman got engulfed by the blast. Not them flying outside of the explosion...
Originally posted by carver9
Dark, this is how it should've looked if Doomsday and Superman got engulfed by the blast. Not them flying outside of the explosion...
Right. So they were simultaneously faster yet slower than the blast.
The spark that ignited the gas line came from Doomsday's foot, they are literally next to the explosion, Superman is fast enough to outrace it, but then the explosion is faster than him, and all these poor creatures aren't actually screaming AIIEEE from the explosion, they just happened to step on some Lego, right?
