Originally posted by h1a8
So your answer is that BA will never use speed against a superhuman in a forum fight.
Correct?
The assertion is that even when he uses his superspeed, he'll still get tagged by superhuman opponents just as it was shown in his movie.
Unless you want to claim that this was not shown in the movie?
Originally posted by FrothByte
The assertion is that even when he uses his superspeed, he'll still get tagged by superhuman opponents just as it was shown in his movie.Unless you want to claim that this was not shown in the movie?
Is this the correct argument that you are using?
Originally posted by h1a8
So you are now saying that he will use speed in a forum fight but will get tagged anyway.
I.e. either he will see the attack clearly and choose to get hit
or
he isn't fast enough to see the attack (he will not use his speed).Is this the correct argument that you are using?
The argument all along is that he will use superspeed the same way as been shown in the movies: that he can score a number of hits against superhuman opponents due to his speed but is still susceptible to getting hit himself.
It's the same argument that everyone has been making. Playing dumb doesn't change the fact that you have no counteraegument to this.
Originally posted by FrothByte
The argument all along is that he will use superspeed the same way as been shown in the movies: that he can score a number of hits against superhuman opponents due to his speed but is still susceptible to getting hit himself.It's the same argument that everyone has been making. Playing dumb doesn't change the fact that you have no counteraegument to this.
But that's like using a scripted fight (like a WWE match) and using it as evidence for a street/MMA cage fight......
Originally posted by h1a8
We use feats to prove what someone can do, but not speculation. Without durability feats then Surfer is as durable as he shown (nothing more). Same goes with speed and reaction feats.
I other words, BA can one two shot him.
We use feats and not speculation. How is BA one or two shotting a character with matter manipulation, phasing abilities, and power output unlike anything BA has ever encountered before while BA has never statued a superhuman?
Your being a hypocrite.
Originally posted by tkitna
We use feats and not speculation. How is BA one or two shotting a character with matter manipulation, phasing abilities, and power output unlike anything BA has ever encountered before while BA has never statued a superhuman?Your being a hypocrite.
Then it turns round and round in a circular argument:
How does Surfer do any of his powers against someone as fast as BA?
Your answer would be that based on the film, BA isn't that fast against superhumans, only humans/bullets - which makes zero sense.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then it turns round and round in a circular argument:How does Surfer do any of his powers against someone as fast as BA?
Your answer would be that based on the film, BA isn't that fast against superhumans, only humans/bullets - which makes zero sense.
If BA was so fast, why didn't he just make short work out of the superhumans he was fighting against? If he wasn't trying to hurt them then why didn't he just avoid their attempts at hitting him altogether? You can't tell me he enjoyed getting hit. If it appeared BA was holding back, so be it, but is anybody to believe Surfer was going all out either? The only time he was shown to let loose was against Galactus (who H1 states was a cloud and had no substance) which caused a shockwave that was larger than the earth. I'll add that Surfer wasn't even at full strength during that exchange too.
Maybe superhumans are just that,,,,superhuman, and have reflexes and reaction times accordingly.
Originally posted by tkitna
If BA was so fast, why didn't he just make short work out of the superhumans he was fighting against? If he wasn't trying to hurt them then why didn't he just avoid their attempts at hitting him altogether? You can't tell me he enjoyed getting hit. If it appeared BA was holding back, so be it, but is anybody to believe Surfer was going all out either? The only time he was shown to let loose was against Galactus (who H1 states was a cloud and had no substance) which caused a shockwave that was larger than the earth. I'll add that Surfer wasn't even at full strength during that exchange too.Maybe superhumans are just that,,,,superhuman, and have reflexes and reaction times accordingly.
Because it was scripted that he gets hit, to show stakes in the movie. Like an exhibition match, or a WWE fight, vs a street fight or a cage fight.
That's why he didn't make short work of the superhuman opponents.
Edit: and even then - if we wanted to go down that rabbit hole, it still means Hawkman/Fate are faster than Surfer, in that case, as they have feats (tagging the superfast, faster than bullets BA) vs Surfer who has.....no speed feats.
Originally posted by FrothByte
The argument all along is that he will use superspeed the same way as been shown in the movies: that he can score a number of hits against superhuman opponents due to his speed but is still susceptible to getting hit himself.It's the same argument that everyone has been making. Playing dumb doesn't change the fact that you have no counteraegument to this.
Ok when he gets hit what will be the reason?
The attack was too fast for him to respond and react?
Or
He chose to get hit?
Or because of the script (plot induced?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because it was scripted that he gets hit, to show stakes in the movie. Like an exhibition match, or a WWE fight, vs a street fight or a cage fight.That's why he didn't make short work of the superhuman opponents.
Edit: and even then - if we wanted to go down that rabbit hole, it still means Hawkman/Fate are faster than Surfer, in that case, as they have feats (tagging the superfast, faster than bullets BA) vs Surfer who has.....no speed feats.
And Surfers movie wasn't scripted either?
If we want to go down rabbit holes, Surfer more than likely could have just busted the entire planet since he destroyed a cosmic entity at least 20 times the size of it. BA would be nothing more than a dog pecker gnat in the scope of things considered.
You just can't give one character the benefit of the doubt without doing so to the other.
Originally posted by tkitna
And Surfers movie wasn't scripted either?If we want to go down rabbit holes, Surfer more than likely could have just busted the entire planet since he destroyed a cosmic entity at least 20 times the size of it. BA would be nothing more than a dog pecker gnat in the scope of things considered.
You just can't give one character the benefit of the doubt without doing so to the other.
Agreed, Surfer was also scripted.
Fully agree he has the capability to do all that you say. I am NOT giving one side the benefit of the doubt over the other
The problem here is that without speed showings, he will never get the chance to. Agreed, he has the planet busting capability - just like BA has his superspeed capability, which means he punches Surfer several times in the first second.
And without durability showings, we can't just assume he's able to take said punches.
Originally posted by h1a8
Ok when he gets hit what will be the reason?
The attack was too fast for him to respond and react?
Or
He chose to get hit?
Or because of the script (plot induced?
Most likely due to one or more of these more realistic reasons:
1. He didn't see the hit coming
2. He couldn't react to each and every single hit
3. He was caught off balance and off guard
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But that's like using a scripted fight (like a WWE match) and using it as evidence for a street/MMA cage fight......
No, no it isn't. It's like using a scripted fight (like a WWE match) as evidence for another scripted fight (like another WWE match).
I mean, we're discussing a fictional fight between fictional characters but for some reason you have issues using fictional feats from their fictional movies?
That's some pretty hardcore hypocrisy there bro.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Agreed, Surfer was also scripted.Fully agree he has the capability to do all that you say. I am NOT giving one side the benefit of the doubt over the other
The problem here is that without speed showings, he will never get the chance to. Agreed, he has the planet busting capability - just like BA has his superspeed capability, which means he punches Surfer several times in the first second.
And without durability showings, we can't just assume he's able to take said punches.
My only issue is I don't believe BA can hit him several times before he can react. Phasing takes but a thought. Even when BA was beating up on the soldiers with his speed there was still movement.
If BA could hit him several times than yeah he more than likely wins or I don't know what would happen. I haven't watched that craptastic four movie in such a long time, but did the surfer get physically knocked off of his board in it? I honestly can't remember. One more thing is the Surfer flies through galaxies to find planets. How durable does one need to be to do that?
Originally posted by FrothByte
No, no it isn't. It's like using a scripted fight (like a WWE match) as evidence for another scripted fight (like another WWE match).I mean, we're discussing a fictional fight between fictional characters but for some reason you have issues using fictional feats from their fictional movies?
That's some pretty hardcore hypocrisy there bro.
My point wasn't that we use fictional feats or whatever.
I am saying a forum fight isn't scripted like a movie is scripted, or like a WWE match is scripted. No one is saying 'then BA throws a punch, which Surfer dodges, then Surfer fires a blast, then' etc etc, whilst basing this sequence on a script where the fight needs to look sexy and last a good while.
Originally posted by tkitna
My only issue is I don't believe BA can hit him several times before he can react. Phasing takes but a thought. Even when BA was beating up on the soldiers with his speed there was still movement.If BA could hit him several times than yeah he more than likely wins or I don't know what would happen. I haven't watched that craptastic four movie in such a long time, but did the surfer get physically knocked off of his board in it? I honestly can't remember. One more thing is the Surfer flies through galaxies to find planets. How durable does one need to be to do that?
And I fire a bullet at him.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
My point wasn't that we use fictional feats or whatever.I am saying a forum fight isn't scripted like a movie is scripted, or like a WWE match is scripted. No one is saying 'then BA throws a punch, which Surfer dodges, then Surfer fires a blast, then' etc etc, whilst basing this sequence on a script where the fight needs to look sexy and last a good while.
A forum fight might not be scripted but we're still basing it off of the movies and shows they came from. You can't disregard their movie feats due to them being scripted, because in doing so the entire character we're talking about ceases to exist. Or they cease to have any feats at all.
What then do we have left objectively argue with? Our own personal interpretation of what a user can do?
Basing what they can or can't do specifically on how they were shown in the movies/shows is the only objective way to do it.
Sad part is Its pretty easy to show BA as pretty OP based on his on screen feats, but arguments for him here are just terrible.
But hey if we want to just go by power set then Surfer goes Intangible through any hits directed at him and hits BA with power enough to drill through the planet. Hes even been shown moving faster tbh.
Originally posted by FrothByte
A forum fight might not be scripted but we're still basing it off of the movies and shows they came from. You can't disregard their movie feats due to them being scripted, because in doing so the entire character we're talking about ceases to exist. Or they cease to have any feats at all.What then do we have left objectively argue with? Our own personal interpretation of what a user can do?
Basing what they can or can't do specifically on how they were shown in the movies/shows is the only objective way to do it.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine a character did something because of their character vs what the script called for.
Do you really think BA is dumb enough not to use his speed, especially when he was shown using his speed against humans and superhumans (yes he did)?
The only way to defeat being statued is for someone to be able to move and react fast enough to not be statued. That's what should be argued. Not BA won't statue Surfer only because Surfer has superpowers. You see how dumb that is?
You can have a character doing reasonable things. If you can't agree on what's reasonable then you are bias from the start and shouldn't be debating.
Originally posted by h1a8
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine a character did something because of their character vs what the script called for.
Do you really think BA is dumb enough not to use his speed, especially when he was shown using his speed against humans and superhumans (yes he did)?The only way to defeat being statued is for someone to be able to move and react fast enough to not be statued. That's what should be argued. Not BA won't statue Surfer only because Surfer has superpowers. You see how dumb that is?
You can have a character doing reasonable things. If you can't agree on what's reasonable then you are bias from the start and shouldn't be debating.
And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that just because someone can accomplish a feat every now and then that it means they can accomplish it every single time.
I noticed you didn't respond to my post stating reasons why BA can be hit by people slower than him. It happens all the time in real-life fights, fighters can still get hit by slower fighters than they are.
In the end, feats matter. That's our golden rule. And as far as feats go, you won't be able to find a feat for BA where he was completely unhittable by a superpowered opponent.
Originally posted by FrothByte
And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that just because someone can accomplish a feat every now and then that it means they can accomplish it every single time.
Yes in general. But some feats can be accomplished ALL THE TIME. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know the difference.
I noticed you didn't respond to my post stating reasons why BA can be hit by people slower than him. It happens all the time in real-life fights, fighters can still get hit by slower fighters than they are.
In the end, feats matter. That's our golden rule. And as far as feats go, you won't be able to find a feat for BA where he was completely unhittable by a superpowered opponent.
DS covered this.
There are levels to speed. Humans can hits humans because a human's speed is within the range of human speed.
Your argument is wrong when it comes to things being SIGNIFICANTLY FASTER (I.e Statuing things and beings)
It is faulty logic that a statue can hit you because slower humans can hit faster humans. You see how dumb that is?
Now you can argue that Surfer will never be a statue to BA and that Surfer will move and react fast enough (with superspeed) that he has a chance of reacting to and hitting BA. That's the proper argument.
Not that statues can hit people because slower humans can hit faster humans.