Hulk vs Wolverine vs Professor X vs Quicksilver!

Originally posted by Smurph
Both powers manifest at the speed of the respective user's thought. So again I come back to the asking for a single reflex feat.

Originally posted by Smurph
Quicksilver's legs are thought-activated. He has to think, then move. Giving him a GL ring (and with all the stips in this thread: he doesn't need to come up with the image himself, he has equal training with the ring and just needs to create the construct that Emma "beams" into his head) just means that now all he has to do is think.

Originally posted by Smurph
So if QS had an edge on Xavier

Originally posted by Smurph
Disagreeing with you doesn't mean I'm reading the feats in bad faith. But in any event, you're welcome to make the argument.

Yet, simple insistence is not an argument.

I've presented proof that Xavier thinks far faster than normal people. Apparently most people, not even you, even deign to argue against that proposition. So how is that so readily dismissed when the scenario involves thought-based weapons? We're not dealing with physically pulling triggers on pistols here. Dismiss my comments all you want. Just don't pretend like I'm the one (i) ignoring the thread stipulations, or (ii) on-panel feats.

I honestly am trying to bear down on both. I don't even have a horse in the race here, bruh.

Originally posted by ODG
This strikes me as you begging the question. Are you denying that Xavier can think far faster than normal people like Quicksilver can think far faster than normal people? I figured we were beyond contesting such a premise.

If you disagree, your protestations make more sense. If you don't, then... ???? So we both agree that physical motor speed is meaningless here, it's about who "thinks" faster. This is what I've been positing the entire time????

Again, I view it was comparing travel/flight speed to fight speed.

Originally posted by ODG
Hold up.... I don't recall agreeing with this. Physically speaking? Sure. Comics mental telepathy speaking? Nah. This is just you assuming your conclusion.

So, in a forum fight: Xavier vs QS, both normal power sets. Bell rings. Who attacks first?

Originally posted by ODG
I think I've been making the same argument the entire time. Both Xavier and Quicksilver have feats of thinking far faster than normal people. And GL rings are thought-based weapons. I mean, if you disagree that Xavier can think far faster than normal people, ok? But btw you and I, you're insisting on your own assumption: Quicksilver can react faster, ergo Quicksilver wins w/ GL rings. Simple insistence isn't an argument.

I've presented proof that Xavier thinks far faster than normal people. Apparently most people, not even you, even deign to argue against that proposition. So how is that so readily dismissed when the scenario involves thought-based weapons? We're not dealing with physically pulling triggers on pistols here. Dismiss my comments all you want. Just don't pretend like I'm the one (i) ignoring the thread stipulations, or (ii) on-panel feats.

I honestly am trying to bear down on both. I don't even have a horse in the race here, bruh.

Otherwise we can start from the 'normal' QS vs Xavier scenario and work backwards from there.

Originally posted by Smurph
Xavier can think faster than Wolverine. Wolverine has faster mental reflexes than Xavier

Because if Hal was pummeled during a fight and nearly on the verge of unconsciousness, he might not manifest strongly reinforced forcefields as quickly/strongly as he could if he were completely unharmed/unexhausted. In other words -- force of will made equal -- I'd argue Hal's GL constructs would manifest stronger if he wasn't punch-drunk.

This is just another way of suggesting that GL rings rely/require more (a) purposefully designed visualization, than (b) simply animal instinctual reflex. So Wolverine having more physically instinctual reflex (an assumption you've made against the foremost Marvel telepath but that I've accepted for purposes of argument?)? Even then, not exactly the deciding factor when it comes to a thought-based weapon like a GL ring.

I'll further expound on what I am thinking: assume both Wolverine/Quicksilver and Xavier are already on the astral plane aiming mentally projected pistols at each other's psychic manifestations. So, who'd win a quickdraw contest?

Are you that supremely confident that Wolverine/Quicksilver win just easily as they would in the real physical world where they're wielding physical pistols?

No? Well, if you are given pause (like me), this thread's scenario might not be as simple as quantifying real life motor reflexes. Which is my entire point.

Should we equate conscious motor-speed with thought speed? Might make sense in the actual real world. But in comics? Nah.

Originally posted by ODG
Sorry but... I think this premise represents an impasse between us. Can't really move beyond this. I can intuit the reasons behind your insistence. I might even agree on a certain level as you might see below. But to bear down on it: GL rings can manifest constructs through both [b](i) purposeful thought, and (ii) instinctual reflex. Almost equally I think. Almost.

Because if Hal was pummeled during a fight and nearly on the verge of unconsciousness, he might not manifest strongly reinforced forcefields as quickly/strongly as he could if he were completely unharmed/unexhausted. In other words -- force of will made equal -- I'd argue Hal's GL constructs would manifest stronger if he wasn't punch-drunk.

This is just another way of suggesting that GL rings rely/require more (a) purposefully designed visualization, than (b) simply animal instinctual reflex. So Wolverine having more physically instinctual reflex (an assumption you've made against the foremost Marvel telepath but that I've accepted for purposes of argument?)? Even then, not exactly the deciding factor when it comes to a thought-based weapon like a GL ring.

[/B]

Second, more importantly, I don't disagree with the majority of your post, but it just doesn't seem relevant.

For one, the strength of their constructs aren't being tested in this thread, so I don't think it matters whether the rings are being driven by instinct or purposeful thought.

Moreover, Emma is beaming the ready-made visualization directly into their frontal cortexes (or wherever, I'm not a neurosurgeon) with the express purpose of equalizing that part of the task.

So this thread is just a contest of mental reflexes. The GL rings merely level the playing field in the sense that all powers manifest in the same way, and nobody gets physical advantages/disadvantages. This is noticeably different than changing the parameters of physics (and, reality) by moving the battle to the astral plane.

So it comes back to what I said: Xavier might think faster in a general sense, but Logan has faster mental reflexes. If you disagree, let's compare actual feats, yeah?

Also, maybe it might help if ODG could clarify what he thinks happens?

Emma flips the card. Beams the thought to all 4.

???

Character 1 has a construct. Followed by character 2/3/4.

Originally posted by Smurph
Look - first, Wolverine having "more physically instinctual reflexes" isn't an assumption that I've made.

Originally posted by Smurph
A) Wolverine has reflex feats aplenty and B) I keep qualifying my statements with "pending proof of Xavier's reflexes". It's a bit cute to refuse to provide a reflex feat and then tell me that I assumed something about X's reflexes but to be clear, I remain open to changing my mind pending that proof.

Originally posted by Smurph
So it comes back to what I said: Xavier might think faster in a general sense, but Logan has faster mental reflexes. If you disagree, let's compare actual feats, yeah?

You didn't comment on my astral plane quickdraw scenario. Ok... take a Shadow King-tutored Wolverine who can use telepathy equally as well due to a temporary (but stable) secondary mutation via MGH. Strap Logan and normal Xavier to dueling Cerebro helmets. Who wins a quickdraw contest?

If you continue to insist that Wolverine's faster physical reflexes outstrip Xavier's mental reflexes, I'll keep pointing to the fact that we're dealing with thought-based weapons here that are activated by thought, not physical movement.

Somehow, I'll continue to be blamed for that. Although, I'm not sure why? Somehow Xavier's ability to think vastly faster than non-telepaths isn't relevant to a thought-based weapon quickdraw.

But thoughts are still the product of physical processes. Neurons firing, chemicals being released, electrical impulses travelling etc. If Electro/Zzaxx/Jenny Sparks took all the electricity out of Xavier's head, he wouldn't be able to form thoughts.

Or can he? Comics being what they are, I wouldn't be surprised.....

You keep moving the goalposts.

Whether you call it physical or mental, a reflex requires an impulse. I know that corpses can still show the Lazarus reflex but in the ordinary sense of the word, a corpse's reflexes are nil.

So let's just compare reflex feats. If Wolverine's physical reflexes are faster than Xavier's mental reflexes, then it seems like it must hold true that Wolverine's mental reflexes are faster, no?

Originally posted by Smurph
You keep moving the goalposts.

Originally posted by Smurph
Whether you call it physical or mental, a reflex requires an impulse. I know that corpses can still show the Lazarus reflex but in the ordinary sense of the word, a corpse's reflexes are nil.

Originally posted by Smurph
So let's just compare reflex feats. If Wolverine's physical reflexes are faster than Xavier's mental reflexes, then it seems like it must hold true that Wolverine's mental reflexes are faster, no?

Maybe make a guess at the two hypotheticals I threw your way previously. Maybe your answers can shed more light on how this discussion isn't outright ignoring Xavier's ability to think vastly faster than non-telepaths.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But thoughts are still the product of physical processes. Neurons firing, chemicals being released, electrical impulses travelling etc. If Electro/Zzaxx/Jenny Sparks took all the electricity out of Xavier's head, he wouldn't be able to form thoughts.

Or can he? Comics being what they are, I wouldn't be surprised.....

Honestly, how much does real world human biology limit these characters? It sure would hella limit how fast Xavier thinks. But as we see in the fictional world of comics, not so much.

Originally posted by ODG
I kinda think you are. In the fictional worlds of comics, telepaths don't seem to abide by such rules. I don't know why you keep insisting on assuming your conclusion with me. I also don't think you're doing it in bad faith either. But we're going in circles.

Maybe make a guess at the two hypotheticals I threw your way previously. Maybe your answers can shed more light on how this discussion isn't outright ignoring Xavier's ability to think vastly faster than non-telepaths.

Your starting premise is that Xavier thinks faster than non-telepaths. As I've explained, I accept that as a general truth, but when it comes to specific applications of that idea (ie faster reflexes for a "mental quick draw"😉, I refer to feats. You keep evading a request for feats and tell me I'm assuming my conclusion. But how can I be the one assuming a conclusion when I'm saying let's just look at the feats?

Again: yes, Xavier thinks very fast. But as Batman infamously put it, who's faster: Usain Bolt or Bruce Lee? The speed feats that I recall for Xavier establish speed in the vein of Usain Bolt. I don't think that premise means that he automatically has faster reflexes (in any sense) than Wolverine. The same way I wouldn't accept that Starfire can blitz Spider-Man simply on the premise that Tamaraneans can fly ftl.

Originally posted by ODG
Why exactly should we be so beholden to how real world biology works? You put a giant green rage monster, a midget with a metal skeleton, a bald cripple who can think beyond galaxies, and given them pretty rings that shoot willpower.

Honestly, how much does real world human biology limit these characters? It sure would hella limit how fast Xavier thinks. But as we see in the fictional world of comics, not so much.

Hence my use of comics. If Jenny Sparks removes the electricity from Xavier's brain, can he still make thoughts? If Vulcan messes with the currents in a telepaths brain, can they still think?

Not talking about real world here. Talking about comics.

If the answer is no, then....it's clear that telepaths rely on electricity moving along neurons etc to think. Physical processes.

If the answer is yes, then....it's clear that telepaths don't need all of that, and are free of such pesky limitations. No physical processes.

Originally posted by Smurph
Herein lies the irony.

Your starting premise is that Xavier thinks faster than non-telepaths. As I've explained, I accept that as a general truth, but when it comes to specific applications of that idea (ie faster reflexes for a "mental quick draw"😉, I refer to feats. You keep evading a request for feats and tell me I'm assuming my conclusion. But how can I be the one assuming a conclusion when I'm saying let's just look at the feats?

Originally posted by Smurph
Again: yes, Xavier thinks very fast. But as Batman infamously put it, who's faster: Usain Bolt or Bruce Lee?

At the risk of looking delicate, I honestly don't have a horse in this race. So I'm happy to bow out of this exchange. We're just talking past each other.
If you're insisting that I am unconsciously/consciously arguing in bad faith... ok, I guess I won't turn down a challenge. But it seems pointless. I'd like to advance to 3rd base but like... we're at homeplate on an 0-2 count arguing about what is and isn't a balk.

This don't seem like it'll go anywhere constructive.

Originally posted by ODG
But you're challenging me on and, insisting for, physical reflex feats. When really... physical reflex feats have little to do with thought-based weapons and speed.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hence my use of comics. If Jenny Sparks removes the electricity from Xavier's brain, can he still make thoughts?

What do you want me to say?

Yes, if Jenny Sparks attacks Xavier completely unaware and drains his brain of electrical impulses, game over. But that's not what this thread is.

If they were staring at each other w/ guns and the contest is a quickdraw?? I'm not sure what'd happen. I'd guess Jenny Sparks has more feats with guns than Xavier given how old she is? So Jenny wins, I guess. But again that's not what this thread is.

If they were staring at each other w/ Jenny's electric powers vs Xavier's telepathy in a quickdraw to phuck their brains? I'm not exactly sure what'd happen, but I might take Xavier more often than not given how weird comics measures the speed of telepathy. But again again that's not what this thread is.

If they were staring at each other and asked to draw something with a purely thought-based weapon like a GL ring. I might be even more inclined to side with Xavier on that. That's what this thread is asking, isn't it? And I feel like Xavier's speed of thought is extremely relevant, if not determinative of this contest.

I feel like I'm being accused of fleeing from the thread topic yet I'm sitting here like... I think you guys are the ones going off-topic.

Originally posted by Smurph
Nah, I'm asking for any reflex feat. No need to confine it to "physical reflex". Just whatever Xavier has got.

Originally posted by ODG
Not trying to be prevaricating because I do have an example that suddenly popped to mind -- was super obvious in retrospect -- but we do agree that comics telepathy and the speed at which comic telepaths Xavier thinks utterly defies physical biology? We agree on that, yes?

But is Xavier capable of thinking speeds that defy biology? Yes. Agreed.

^ Ok, Danger is a Shiar A.I. mutant with cpu processing capabilities that I think, undoubtedly dwarf Wolverine's. Danger beat the phuck out of Wolverine together w/ the X-Men. Logan was particularly dismantled. Like, he didn't do crap even when the X-Men started changing things up.

Well, Xavier outfights Danger in pretty much every turn of their 1v1 fight. Especially so when he brings his telepathy into play. Not sure why I didn't draw upon this now. The initial scan I presented comes from that exact storyline.

I'll have to reread Astonishing because I forget the specifics of how the fight started. I do think that Whedon mostly wrote Logan as comic relief so I don't put a ton of stock in that comparison (better to compare high showings, I think) but I take the point.

From what I do recall, showings like that and Xavier vs Exodus lead me to believe that in an actual ring-slinging match against Logan, Xavier would quickly dominate him in terms of power, complexity, number of constructs... etc. I mean, I don't think that was ever really in question.

But (and again, admittedly without recalling all the specifics of the Danger showing) in the very specific thread parameters at hand, I don't think any of that leads to the conclusion that Xavier would reflexively form the Emma-card faster than Logan would

/shrug

^ Based on what I think your argumentation is trying to bear down on, you probably won't find much there anyway. But that's kind of my point?

Slightly off-base here: replace Xavier in this thread w/ Hal Jordan himself. Who wins this quickdraw GL ring contest? It strikes me as if the prevailing idea I'm railing against is that Logan has enhanced bio-physiology, so he would undeniably win against normal human Hal Jordan?

Even with Hal being a completely normal, non-telepathic human w/ zero comic science telepath biology phuckery, I'm just like... that don't exactly seem right. Nor would I anticipate that bearing out in comics... like at all.

How many aliens, or A.I., or higher forms of life, or friggin mathematical equations have been GLs? An enhanced bio-physiology ought to provide quicker trigger fingers, sure. In real life. But when has that ever been a meaningful factor in a GL ring-slinging contest in the comics? Should it? Maybe. Does it? I can't think of anything.

Back on-base here: Xavier isn't even a normal human. And he somehow thinks faster. Sure, it's dumb but it's also on-panel. To the point where I kinda think Xavier would beat Danger in this GL-ring quickdraw contest. Based on how he kinda sonned her in their 1v1 fight.

So what sort of superior opponent would Logan present in the face of that? We argue with the comics or against the comics. I'd like to think I'm arguing with the comics. But because I don't really have a horse in the race, it's possible I am missing the plainly obvious.