Zod vs Wonder Woman

Originally posted by ODG

But I leave it up to you to decide whether Diana's hypothetical fight against Zod would be more ignominious than that scene against Mongul as opposed to something closer to this:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/e330d095-764e-43ca-988e-6e997662773f.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/64b4d8bc-4164-4a5b-b802-9db986afad9f.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/d81ae50a-0611-430e-82ec-f3bc116493f1.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/46955ed7-eac1-4102-8192-51b6b9a1d463.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/0374b987-3d83-4b4f-ac05-eeabd3a137e4.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/c4440797-774d-4fd8-9f59-bd5b7ba6129c.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/1fd27c7b-cda8-4edb-a0c5-5193164c1adc.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/39a9cc7c-570d-4aef-9c1f-bef238d73b57.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/6b3991dc-c543-41d2-af28-e27cc85ca73c.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/301e91b2-679c-4f1d-b600-ae6f93e74a97.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/6094ab7e-c3aa-4dd1-a3e7-c13366abe3a6.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/6f74e1af-909f-4546-8ea1-adba021382d2.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/224944d0-41e8-4679-b521-32576ecf4953.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/e0e9895c-5880-44e8-a9a5-51999278712e.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/c8fea394-fa03-45f5-8ed6-ed7c160b4583.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/546684b2-1077-4f3a-9066-2cf47b639113.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/38bee214-775d-4c77-9af5-f4a4612a19d4.jpg
https://hosting.photobucket.com/c2ff727d-f6c8-4ae8-b3f1-2b73f185b92b/6e159670-7c05-402b-822e-60335f370def.jpg

I think if Sacrifice is the comparator then Wonder Woman loses.

We can quibble about the circumstances in Sacrifice or in her fights against Mongul or against Supergirl. The thing that's convinced me over the course of debating Carver is that every comparator where the opponent is the same is a comparator that decisively favors Zod.

Can you make a case for WW? Sure. But it necessarily relies on ABC logic to a much greater degree. So I view the case as more tenuous.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

I mean, we both know that your insistent replies are nothing more than a facile attempt to manufacture a semblance of a debate here.

But from beginning to end, it's been you peddling ABC logic and me slapping you like the lil b1tch you are for trying to sell that as if it were an actual argument.

Originally posted by Smurph
👆

I think if Sacrifice is the comparator then Wonder Woman loses.

We can quibble about the circumstances in Sacrifice or in her fights against Mongul or against Supergirl. The thing that's convinced me over the course of debating Carver is that every comparator where the opponent is the same is a comparator that decisively favors Zod.

Can you make a case for WW? Sure. But it necessarily relies on ABC logic to a much greater degree. So I view the case as more tenuous.

I am very interested in hearing how you think Zod gets around Wonder Woman's magical attributes/weapons better than Superman, Supergirl or Power Girl, etc.

Originally posted by ODG
You keep contorting yourself into pretzel shapes to justify your moronic ABC logic. But that's all it is. Moronic ABC logic.

I mean, we both know that your insistent replies are nothing more than a facile attempt to manufacture a semblance of a debate here.

But from beginning to end, it's been you peddling ABC logic and me slapping you like the lil b1tch you are for trying to sell that as if it were an actual argument.

Also

Originally posted by Smurph
👆

I think if Sacrifice is the comparator then Wonder Woman loses.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Whatever you say, buddy

Originally posted by ODG
By all means, elaborate.

I am very interested in hearing how you think Zod gets around Wonder Woman's magical attributes/weapons better than Superman, Supergirl or Power Girl, etc.

When fighting those three, Superman (despite being mind controlled) dodged her magical lasso. Which Zod can replicate.

Power Girl also dodged it. Which Zod can replicate.

Supergirl got caught, then did a blast which got her out of the lasso. Which Zod can replicate.

With all three, what gave WW the edge was her fighting skill, not her speed or weaponry (though with Superman I guess we can go in circles around the extenuating circumstances etc). And I don't think Zod's ferocity/skill has ever been shown wanting.
But Smurph is a big boy, with big skirts. He can answer for himself.

Edit: it wasn't her fighting skills, but her fighting experience, that gave her the edge.

You forgot the Captain Dalen. It's also another example

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Zoom isn't faster, rather, he travels through time.

Flash was lassoed because he was super predictable, like a starfish. Or he was not operating at full cpacity (Memno had stolen his memories of how his powers worked).

OTOH:

Zod has better feats than Dalan.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
When fighting those three, Superman (despite being mind controlled) dodged her magical lasso. Which Zod can replicate.

Power Girl also dodged it. Which Zod can replicate.

Supergirl got caught, then did a blast which got her out of the lasso. Which Zod can replicate.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
With all three, what gave WW the edge was her fighting skill, not her speed or weaponry (though with Superman I guess we can go in circles around the extenuating circumstances etc). And I don't think Zod's ferocity/skill has ever been shown wanting.
But Smurph is a big boy, with big skirts. He can answer for himself.

Edit: it wasn't her fighting skills, but her fighting experience, that gave her the edge.

I'm just curious how Zod presents an insurmountable opponent to Wonder Woman given Power Girl, Supergirl and even Superman have not.

Originally posted by ODG
By all means, elaborate.

I am very interested in hearing how you think Zod gets around Wonder Woman's magical attributes/weapons better than Superman, Supergirl or Power Girl, etc.

But maybe more importantly, each of the characters you've named have pretty easily dismissed or dodged the lasso, including Superman just evading the attempt in the middle of the Sacrifice fight. And Carver has convinced me that the WW weapons advantage is inflated by some forum myths about the lasso ending the match. WW's actual fights are replete with examples of the lasso doing little to stop the fight from continuing. I'm not sure it would do much to Zod.

Which leads to the third point, which is that Zod is simply stronger than Supergirl or PG, and far more ruthless.

Wonder Woman is consistently shown as a peer of Supergirl's. Zod oneshot Supergirl. That's the clearest comparison, in my view.

Originally posted by Smurph
Well, for starters, he's more durable than any of them, save dialed-to-11 Superman. Given his fighting with an open skull and damaged brain, or Katana's magical blade not slowing him down, or his remark of "not being that hurt" after getting cut open by Ra's kryptonite sword, I don't think the normal weaknesses do much to temper those durability showings.

Originally posted by Smurph
But maybe more importantly, each of the characters you've named have pretty easily dismissed or dodged the lasso, including Superman just evading the attempt in the middle of the Sacrifice fight. And Carver has convinced me that the WW weapons advantage is inflated by some forum myths about the lasso ending the match. WW's actual fights are replete with examples of the lasso doing little to stop the fight from continuing. I'm not sure it would do much to Zod.

Originally posted by Smurph
Which leads to the third point, which is that Zod is simply stronger than Supergirl or PG, and far more ruthless.

Originally posted by Smurph
Wonder Woman is consistently shown as a peer of Supergirl's. Zod oneshot Supergirl. That's the clearest comparison, in my view.

Originally posted by ODG
You're extolling his damage soak rather than his durability. A factor which I admit I did not give its full probative value. Ok. While I don't think Zod's damage soak is greater than Superman's, I cannot think of a scan where half Kal's head is exposed and he's fighting. So fair enough. Because each of those characters, including Maxwell Lord understand how important it is to avoid the Lasso of Truth. If Zod has such on-panel foresight or ought to be imbued with this knowledge, then make that case. Which leads to my original point, the bloodlusted Superman who thought he was fighting a Doomsday that just murdered Lois??? That guy would rip Zod to pieces. It was Wonder Woman's skill, experience and magical armaments/abilities that prevented her from being torn apart. Let us utterly disregard Wonder Woman's history with Supergirl, yea? Your suggested comparison is about as facile as suggesting Zod vs Hal Jordan would turn out the same as Zod vs Alan Scott.

Zod has standard knowledge of his opponent per forum rules. Even if all he knows is "magical lasso", there's no reason to think he would let himself be roped given how other kryptonians (to use your comparators) have wilfully dodged it mid fight. And I'm not convinced that it would do all that much in any event... since we've seen Kryptonians continue to batter Wonder Woman while lassoed.

As for the WW/Supergirl bit, I'm doing precisely the opposite of ignoring their established history. I'm saying in light of their history, it's clear that Zod is stronger.

Originally posted by Smurph
That's fair, I was conflating damage soak and durability.

Originally posted by Smurph
His superior durability is better established by the fact that he seemingly took no damage from the combined attack of Eradicator, Cyborg Superman, and the Suicide Squad (including Enchantress with a sustained magic blast).

Originally posted by Smurph
Zod has standard knowledge of his opponent per forum rules. Even if all he knows is "magical lasso", there's no reason to think he would let himself be roped given how other kryptonians (to use your comparators) have wilfully dodged it mid fight. And I'm not convinced that it would do all that much in any event... since we've seen Kryptonians continue to batter Wonder Woman while lassoed.

Originally posted by Smurph
What happens after they are lassoed is a matter of fair debate.

Originally posted by Smurph
As for the WW/Supergirl bit, I'm doing precisely the opposite of ignoring their established history. I'm saying in light of their history, it's clear that Zod is stronger.

Originally posted by Senor Cage

Golgo would post retconned scans without realizing they were retconned.

The irony of DC's biggest fanboy not following the comics.

Originally posted by Smurph

Which leads to the third point, which is that Zod is simply stronger than Supergirl or PG, and far more ruthless.

Ruthless, and calculating (piggybacking on smurph's post because a lot of his views align with mine and I'm too lazy to type it out again).

WW fought Supergirl when she was fighting like a child, no strategy or thinking ahead:

And it wasn't her skills that let her do what she did, but experience:

With Superman, well, he wasn't exactly calculating, was he? He was fighting with no due regard for himself (so ruthless, but not calculating):

PG was down to her lacking training (so yeah, the skill gap).

Zod isn't a sulky Kryptonian teenager, nor a griefstricken bloodlusted Superman. As you say, he IS an august military mind. Also, by-the-by:

https://i.imgur.com/t4XqZSX.jpeg

I would say him knowing about WW's lasso isn't too far-fetched. Even before this, he had known about a fair few things about Earth:

Originally posted by ODG

After you salve your anus with vaseline, that is. Well, yes... once I finally deigned to respond after your b1tch-self chased me for 200+ posts over 10+ years...

... yes. As soon as I started responding, I got nothing but you fleeing like a b1tch. Not my fault.

Why are you so obsessed with guys anus, you little prude? Just come out of the closet already.

As always, you got nothing, little biatch.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Ruthless, and calculating (piggybacking on smurph's post because a lot of his views align with mine and I'm too lazy to type it out again).

WW fought Supergirl when she was fighting like a child, no strategy or thinking ahead:

https://i.postimg.cc/JzCFYQkF/Experience1.png[

And it wasn't her skills that let her do what she did, but experience:
https://i.postimg.cc/fbwrDT5j/Experience2.png

With Superman, well, he wasn't exactly calculating, was he? He was fighting with no due regard for himself (so ruthless, but not calculating):
https://i.postimg.cc/tTSVqSD2/Suffer2.png

Your intended technique falls flat when faced with the comics themselves unfortunately. Superman's fight against Wonder Woman mirrored his previous fight against Batman & the Justice League. His actions weren't conscious but they were very purposeful. In fact, on-panel they were characterized as rather tactically brilliant. So that utterly disproves your attempt to characterize Superman's actions as being anything less than calculating. That's what made Maxwell Lord's mind-control so distinct from the norm:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
PG was down to her lacking training (so yeah, the skill gap).

Zod isn't a sulky Kryptonian teenager, nor a griefstricken bloodlusted Superman. As you say, he IS an august military mind. Also, by-the-by:

https://i.imgur.com/t4XqZSX.jpeg

I would say him knowing about WW's lasso isn't too far-fetched. Even before this, he had known about a fair few things about Earth:
https://i.postimg.cc/PqPFPFsP/Lazarus.png

But it'd be better if we reviewed comics where Zod knowingly defended against magicks to see if Zod could defend against one of the most popular and formidable magic-blessed characters in comics.

Originally posted by ODG
Your intended technique falls flat when faced with the comics themselves unfortunately. Superman's fight against Wonder Woman mirrored his previous fight against Batman & the Justice League. His actions weren't conscious but they were very purposeful. In fact, on-panel they were characterized as rather tactically brilliant. So that utterly disproves your attempt to characterize Superman's actions as being anything less than calculating. That's what made Maxwell Lord's mind-control so distinct from the norm:

Whilst the hypothesis from MMH is all well and good, we actually see what is going through Superman's mind during his fight with WW, which is that he was only fighting to prolong Doomsday's suffering, and he was giving no regard to himself or to his surroundings.

But it'd be better if we reviewed comics where Zod knowingly defended against magicks to see if Zod could defend against one of the most popular and formidable magic-blessed characters in comics.

He doesn't so much as defend, as aggressively attack. Against Enchantress:

Again:

Again:

He strategises, after all. Which is why he's a different fighter as opposed to Supergirl (a child) PG (minimal training) and Superman (out of his mind).