Originally posted by DarkSaint85Catwoman one shotted three Flashes in a single occasion. Surely we gotta be ushering her into the speed echelon too.
Outreacts light attacks on no less than three (rather than a single scam) occasions - against Superman, Hal, and Darkseid, three of the top energy wielders in DC.
Also Deathstroke, right? Because I put similar stock into the Batman Confidential showing as I do Identity Crisis...
Originally posted by Smurph
Catwoman one shotted three Flashes in a single occasion. Surely we gotta be ushering her into the speed echelon too.Also Deathstroke, right? Because I put similar stock into the Batman Confidential showing as I do Identity Crisis...
....are they in this thread?
Originally posted by Parmaniac
How is this a ftl feat?
He outraced the Omega Sanction and was able to make movements/take action after it was fired (speaking, smirking, throwing his special gun that fired the idea of bullets down/letting go of it).
It of course isn't if someone can prove the beams have differing speeds. Same way HV and GL light beams have differing speeds.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85The thing is that Leo's stance is easy enough to reconcile if you get that he's just preferring to dispose of the feat by way of weight rather than admissibility. Which is the flip side of my initial position, but it's really a distinction without much of a difference.
Context aside, did Leo say Catwoman and Deathstroke are special cases where we need to ignore PIS? That we take their feats as they occur?....are they in this thread?
I would tend to say: PIS, forum rules, the feat shouldn't be part of the discussion and we should narrow the discussion to feats that could actually change the course of the argument.
Leo would tend to say: I hate relying on PIS, the character is what it is and the rules shouldn't warp that, but I retain the ability to understand when a feat is so incomprehensibly dumb that it shouldn't carry any analytical weight.
One person says the feat isn't admissible. The other person says it just carries zero weight. Two different approaches of coming to the same conclusion; namely, Batman doesn't move at speeds relative to HV or any sort of energy beam... because that would fly in the face of the overwhelming majority of his character history.
You can try to catch him with this gotcha thing but you can't ultimately read his post as an argument that we should treat Bats as a lightspeed dodger because his whole stance is predicated on the idea that we should treat the characters in line with their history. That's *why* he was saying don't draw a PIS line through Batman's feats.
I prefer to deal with it at the outset because I think this kind of feat is precisely the reason we have the plot induced stupidity rule and we shouldn't get bogged down with nonsense.
Of course, having said that, this has bogged down the thread anyways, so... shows what I know, I guess.
I mean, that's fine, hence my question of stepping back and asking what does 'shrugging Batman's feats off ' mean.
Because it sounds like he on one hand DOES want to ignore it (as in this thread) and in others, does NOT want to ignore it. The quote that I....quoted him from, was where WW was fighting Batman without his armour, and he seemed fine with it.
It's not a gotcha moment from me. I genuinely thought others on the forum (carver included, funnily enough) thought the same as me - it's Batman, he does what he does, don't rationalize it but accept it as it is.
And now I'm seeing all this 'stay in your lane Batman, you're a street tier human' (comic human, but still human) and you shouldn't do anything too batshit craycray.
smurph said well 👆
still not not sure how that wasn't clear nor why you're so focused on what i said anyway...? i thought i was very clear--i hate pis but i don't count the 'omg bat moments' as his norm. not sure i could be more clear. shrugging it off means i don't use the feat in a forum match because it flies in the face of his history--but it's still pretty cool. i honestly don't know why that's hard to get?
the feat is absolutely pis even if we assume the gl beam is light speed. why? cuz that's still no where NEAR his norm though it seems to indicate you've doubled down on your bats>light speed stance with the post. i see you didn't answer a single question i posed though.
so what exactly ARE you saying? you think bats SHOULD be considered ftl in vs matches? you think taking on the jla is his norm? or is struggling with croc his norm? can't really be both. stop trying to slip through taking a definitive position by focusing on what i said, and take a definitive position.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85Are there pages missing? The way I see it is, Darkseid's eyes strated to glow to charge up (not fired), then we see Batman shoot and the bullet connect (blood spilling) while the beams are on their way, when the beams were actually fired is impossible to say, if anything I'd say they were fired after Batman's shot since they go down first because Darkseid was looking down from being shot, the beams move past Batman left and right without any movement from Batman, he isn't outreacting anything. The beams, for whatever reason, zick zack around behind him while he talks, drops the gun and Darkseid drops (gravity) and shit starts to fume out of him. If this proofs FTL then I can make legit claims that Aunt May is FTL or bascially everything in comics is FTL.
He outraced the Omega Sanction and was able to make movements/take action after it was fired (speaking, smirking, throwing his special gun that fired the idea of bullets down/letting go of it).
It of course isn't if someone can prove the beams have differing speeds. Same way HV and GL light beams have differing speeds.
Originally posted by Parmaniac
The beams, for whatever reason, zick zack around behind him while he talks, drops the gun and Darkseid drops (gravity) and shit starts to fume out of him.
Like in this scene:
https://i.imgur.com/t23SgLn.jpeg
Or here where it's chasing the Flashes:
Originally posted by leonidas
smurph said well 👆still not not sure how that wasn't clear nor why you're so focused on what i said anyway...? i thought i was very clear--i hate pis but i don't count the 'omg bat moments' as his norm. not sure i could be more clear. shrugging it off means i don't use the feat in a forum match because it flies in the face of his history--but it's still pretty cool. i honestly don't know why that's hard to get?
the feat is absolutely pis even if we assume the gl beam is light speed. why? cuz that's still no where NEAR his norm though it seems to indicate you've doubled down on your bats>light speed stance with the post. i see you didn't answer a single question i posed though.
so what exactly ARE you saying? you think bats SHOULD be considered ftl in vs matches? you think taking on the jla is his norm? or is struggling with croc his norm? can't really be both. stop trying to slip through taking a definitive position by focusing on what i said, and take a definitive position.
OK, so you take them as PIS. That is what I was confused about, because I thought, like me, you made a special exception for Batman. I never dodged this, and have said it many times.
My definitive position is that it all counts if in a canon comic. I go by what is shown on panel (accounting for things like context like holding back and mind-control etc of course).
Is Batman lightspeed/FTL? No. Based on the consistency of the showings, if you want to use that.
Would he beat people faster/stronger than him? Yes. Based on the consistency of the showings, if you want to use that.
It basically devolves into 'Batman wins, because he is Batman'. We do not need to have any objective feats for him (which again, I am having fun with showing that actually, at the end of the day, it HAS happend, and HAS happened multiple times). No need to use bullets, or lasers, or black holes or whatever as the metric, because at the end of the day, he always wins. Because he's Batman. Zoom, Grodd (who fights THE speedster in all DC), Damage (who punched Superman harder than Doomsday did when he killed Superman), WW, Hal, Superman, MMH, Grundy, Gotham, it does not matter if on paper their stats are 8 million times higher than him, he wins. As shown by feats, and as show by actual statements
IF we want to rely on objective feats that happened in canon comics, well, then.....you have all seen what happens then. Batman has so many crazy feats it’s impossible to call them pis anymore.
Otherwise, we are at an impasse. You don't like Batman's lightspeed feats because to you, they are PIS (despite previously saying it all counts)? OK. Abhi doesn't like Elektra's feats because they are PIS. Carver does not like Morrison's entire handling of Superman, so THAT is PIS.
We could do the same, though, no? Let's count ALL of Elektra's feats. PIS, not PIS, CIS, not CIS, whatever. Like the Steroid Olympics, let's put EVERYTHING on the table, and allow ALL (canon, obvs) feats in this thread, and see where it goes. Go crazy with them. See how they stack up. That could be an option?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This part. As the beams are zigzagging at....whatever speed they're travelling at (which I am saying is at lightspeed), Batman is able to talk and drop the gun.Like in this scene:
https://i.imgur.com/t23SgLn.jpegOr here where it's chasing the Flashes:
Originally posted by DarkSaint85That's why I asked you:
OK, so you take them as PIS. That is what I was confused about, because I thought, like me, you made a special exception for Batman. I never dodged this, and have said it many times.My definitive position is that it all counts if in a canon comic. I go by what is shown on panel (accounting for things like context like holding back and mind-control etc of course).
Is Batman lightspeed/FTL? No. Based on the consistency of the showings, if you want to use that.
Would he beat people faster/stronger than him? Yes. Based on the consistency of the showings, if you want to use that.
It basically devolves into 'Batman wins, because he is Batman'. We do not need to have any objective feats for him (which again, I am having fun with showing that actually, at the end of the day, it HAS happend, and HAS happened multiple times). No need to use bullets, or lasers, or black holes or whatever as the metric, because at the end of the day, he always wins. Because he's Batman. Zoom, Grodd (who fights THE speedster in all DC), Damage (who punched Superman harder than Doomsday did when he killed Superman), WW, Hal, Superman, MMH, Grundy, Gotham, it does not matter if on paper their stats are 8 million times higher than him, he wins. As shown by feats, and as show by actual statements
IF we want to rely on objective feats that happened in canon comics, well, then.....you have all seen what happens then. [b]Batman has so many crazy feats it’s impossible to call them pis anymore
.Otherwise, we are at an impasse. You don't like Batman's lightspeed feats because to you, they are PIS (despite previously saying it all counts)? OK. Abhi doesn't like Elektra's feats because they are PIS. Carver does not like Morrison's entire handling of Superman, so THAT is PIS.
We could do the same, though, no? Let's count ALL of Elektra's feats. PIS, not PIS, CIS, not CIS, whatever. Like the Steroid Olympics, let's put EVERYTHING on the table, and allow ALL (canon, obvs) feats in this thread, and see where it goes. Go crazy with them. See how they stack up. That could be an option? [/B]
Originally posted by Smurph
Catwoman one shotted three Flashes in a single occasion. Surely we gotta be ushering her into the speed echelon too.Also Deathstroke, right? Because I put similar stock into the Batman Confidential showing as I do Identity Crisis...
I actually lol'd abhi.
and @ds--you've said nothing that hasn't existed in the forum for....decades. 😂
arguments over what is and isn't pis have gone on since the forum began. if i'm reading a bat book and he does some bat-thing that defies explanation I shrug or laugh. that doesn't mean i'd use a light speed feat in a forum battle as proof he could move at light speed. you've completely misinterpreted my old post. accepting and using something in a forum as ridiculous as batman showing ftl speed is...ridiculous. I of course reserve the right to decide when something is way too far over the top. arbitrary? maybe. based on the majority of his history? I think so.
but you said he's not a light speeder. you've said the imp isn't responsible for all his bat-showings so that's enough for me. 👆 you have yet to address the point smuph made or the question i asked about his showings vs street level guys--slade, Cassie, croc, et al., though, and you seem focused only on his high feats for some reason which are radically outnumbered by his less-than-jla-busting showings. so if I showed a bunch of them, it should be equally valid for me to claim he can be hit and beat by people WAY below light speed and WAY below the jla right?
I can't believe I felt the need to articulate what any common person off the street would already know about batman...
bats would win a majority over dd. but dd is fully capable of winning some here. which is what I said a very long time ago. if you want to focus on bats' highs only and say he sweeps, well that's on you but it's a pretty disingenuous stance and blatantly ignores most of batman's history.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
This part. As the beams are zigzagging at....whatever speed they're travelling at (which I am saying is at lightspeed), Batman is able to talk and drop the gun.Like in this scene:
https://i.imgur.com/t23SgLn.jpegOr here where it's chasing the Flashes:
This you?
Originally posted by DarkSaint85I intercept light beams on a daily basis, no one tells me I'm that special.
Yes, I focus on the high ends - because of the Full Capacity rule. And yes, it leads to Batman having incredible high end feats. If people want to attribute it to the imp, go for it - you just seemed more upset that you couldn't argue against it, rather than the actual scan itself.
Full Capacity meaning that even though the Flash doesn't clock his opponents in the first millisecond of the fight in the vast majority of his fights, he's been shown to have the ability to do so, so it's fair game.
And yes, I know the arguments have been existing for decades - I posted your statements saying as much. Where do you think I get the examples of Carver deciding one day that Morrison's body of work regarding Superman is PIS from? From the same conversation you had with Bran. This statement:
"Batman has so many crazy feats it’s impossible to call them pis anymore."
Is actually yours. YOU said it. YOU are the one saying they're....not PIS. If you want tl argue that they're highend showings and you prefer the 'true spirit' of the character, and only argue 'average' showings, that's for you to do so.
Originally posted by Smurph
That's why I asked you:
And thats why I responded. Deathstroke/Catwoman aren't in this thread. The Flashes were mindcontrolled with Catwoman anyway. Nobody has said that Deathstroke has so many ridiculous feats its impossible to call it PIS.
So how about it? All showings on the table, PIS or otherwise be damned?
Originally posted by carver9
This you?
Oh good, you are here.
Originally posted by carver9
Perfect. I accept that he is listed as street but he is obviously Trans tier due to him dodging Superman, fighting Kalibak, going h2h with Zoom, tanking Wonder Woman hits. Fighting Mongul, dodging Darkseid omegas. Sh** the list is long. Whenever you feel like we should tackle him being moved up, I'm always down to help. Thanks for assisting in helping me realize how powerful Batman is.
Originally posted by carver9
Oh, trust me, I disagree with the entire showing and everything Batman stands for. Batman is the exception to the rule. Him and Captain America.
I mean....you agree with me, lmao.
