Revan's Raw Power Comparison

Started by Selenial35 pages

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Or perhaps there is more than one method of achieving that singular outcome.

After all, Sever Force is listed as a separate ability from Wall of Light, even if the latter can be used to cut a dark sider from the Force.

Again, the method for "Sever Force" as described in The Essential guide to the Force:

"When you feel the dark side energies turned against you, you must use your Jedi abilities to take power away from an opponent, rather than to inflict harm. This technique blinds your enemy to the Force with a wall of light, a permanent blockage if you so choose, rendering him unable to use Jedi powers. It is difficult. And it is the most devastating attack possible using the powers of the light side. To block a Jedi from the Force—even a Dark Jedi—is a terrible thing"

Actually... That doesn't say anything about needing to be a Dark Jedi...

Originally posted by Selenial
No, he said the exact same things I did, you're just a pathetic child who refused to admit defeat.

Mind your language, girl.

His debating skills vastly outstrips yours. He clarified the matter, you didn't.

Also, defeat is a strong word. You have yet to prove that Luke could defend himself against Force Storm (Wormhole) power.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Mind your language, girl.

His debating skills vastly outstrips yours. He clarified the matter, you didn't.

Also, defeat is a strong word. You have yet to prove that Luke could defend himself against Force Storm (Wormhole) power.

Mind my language? All I did was call you pathetic, which is nothing in comparison to what most of the people around here call you. Hell, even Beni's called you worse than that.

This quote:

Originally posted by Selenial
Awwww, that's cute, that's really cute. Now youre making things up just to spite me? Nawww. <3

I said he survived, not tanked, so stop lying please.

Also, you're wrong. Force Harmony was a technique that pooled energies together and severed someone from the force.

The act of severing someone from the force is done by the wall of light, as described in The Essential Guide to the Force:

"When you feel the dark side energies turned against you, you must use your Jedi abilities to take power away from an opponent, rather than to inflict harm. This technique blinds your enemy to the Force with a wall of light, a permanent blockage if you so choose, rendering him unable to use Jedi powers. It is difficult. And it is the most devastating attack possible using the powers of the light side. To block a Jedi from the Force—even a Dark Jedi—is a terrible thing."

And, believe it or not, (I'm serious, I don't care) What Luke and Leia did was also described as a flood of lightside energy encasing him...

It's Wall of Light.

Deal with it.

Well, that's Game, Set and Match. Onto the next one I guess.

Says everything Beni said, and I posted it about 4 pages back.

You just refused to accept that I was right, if you're going to act like a spoiled little Brat who considers the shit that comes out of his own mouth as gospel, have the balls to admit it when you're wrong.

And that is defending himself against Force Storm.

The best way to defend against a lightsaber is to kill the person wielding it, same with a force storm.

Besides, as I already said, him grounding himself in the force would defend against a Force Storm, but it would have killed Leia and possibly left him in the vacuum of space.

Originally posted by Selenial
Mind my language? All I did was call you pathetic, which is nothing in comparison to what most of the people around here call you. Hell, even Beni's called you worse than that.

You are mistaken, people are careful at how they address me. Those who are not, learn a lesson the hard way.

Originally posted by Selenial
This quote:

Says everything Beni said, and I posted it about 4 pages back.

You just refused to accept that I was right, if you're going to act like a spoiled little Brat who considers the shit that comes out of his own mouth as gospel, have the balls to admit it when you're wrong.

And that is defending himself against Force Storm.

The best way to defend against a lightsaber is to kill the person wielding it, same with a force storm.

Besides, as I already said, him grounding himself in the force would defend against a Force Storm, but it would have killed Leia and possibly left him in the vacuum of space.


My assertion that Luke and Leia performed Force Harmony, based on official sources. You claimed they performed Wall of Light, you then attempted to differentiate Force Harmony from Wall of Light, Beni clarified this matter much better.

Don't take this the wrong way, Beni have natural talent in debating.

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
You are mistaken, people are careful at how they address me. Those who are not, learn a lesson the hard way.

You attempted to differentiate Force Harmony from Wall of Light, Beni clarified this matter much better.

Don't take this the wrong way, Beni have natural talent in debating.

I'm shaking in my boots.

Uhh, that's because they're entirely different powers. Literally completely different.

Uhh, "Beni has a natural talent in debating."

Sorry, that's been bugging me for the past week and a half.

That he does, still makes ridiculous decisions and has pitiful knowledge on post ROTJ, but he's a good debater.... (Legacy of Torment. It still hurts Beni. It hurts so bad 😆 )

Well, of-course, Star Wars is too big to digest. Some people concentrate more on certain eras then others, in-fact most do.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
If changing the atmosphere did cause any changes to the environment (though I notice none) it would be a by-product, not a cause, of the ritual. It would be an entirely natural process caused by an unnatural phenomena, totally out of the Sith Emperor's control.

So again the Sith Emperor did not corrupt the entire planet, lets stop, as you seem to have a tendency to do, overblowing the Sith Emperor's powers or otherwise ascribe him powers that he doesn't really have (see sending lightning across an entire planet) to put him on level with those who simply outclass him.

And yes I am aware you are attempting to compare this to the Ones affecting the environment with they mere presence or otherwise at will.

It does not compare, at all.


Emperor did corrupt the entire planet, he altered the climatic conditions of the entire planet initially which likely had an impact on flora and fauna of the planet. He also created a powerful nexus of the dark side in the planet which drove many insane in areas surrounding it, dark side became strong in the entire planet as well. Corruption of the environment was permanent as apparent from visits by Jedi centuries later. In totality, Emperor altered/corrupted the environment of an entire planet. Their is no other way to describe this matter.

Their was no need for Emperor to directly influence ecosystems of the planet since he created conditions that would achieve this result. Creating such conditions is equally impressive development.

As far The Ones are concerned, I will check relevant TCW episodes to learn about their actions. But keep in mind that Dromund Kaas is far bigger then Mortis as well.

Originally posted by Selenial
That he does, still makes ridiculous decisions and has pitiful knowledge on post ROTJ, but he's a good debater.... (Legacy of Torment. It still hurts Beni. It hurts so bad 😆 )

Post-ROTJ is non-canon, my knowledge of Star Wars is absolute. 😆

Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Emperor did corrupt the entire planet, he altered the climatic conditions of the entire planet initially which likely had an impact on flora and fauna of the planet. He also created a powerful nexus of the dark side in the planet which drove many insane in areas surrounding it, dark side became strong in the entire planet as well. Corruption of the environment was permanent as apparent from visits by Jedi centuries later. In totality, Emperor altered/corrupted the environment of an entire planet. Their is no other way to describe this matter.

Their was no need for Emperor to directly influence ecosystems of the planet since he created conditions that would achieve this result. Creating such conditions is equally impressive development.

As far [B]The Ones are concerned, I will check relevant TCW episodes to learn about their actions. But keep in mind that Dromund Kaas is far bigger then Mortis as well. [/B]

Yes there is, the Sith Emperor corrupted the planet's stratosphere and altogether contributed to the already present dark side nexus on the planet.

Any changes to the flora and fauna were inadvertent and not a direct effect of the Sith Emperor's power i.e. he cannot use the Force to directly corrupted planets. Nor is adapting to a darker environment anything to do with corruption, rather evolution.

It is therefore irrelevant in terms of his abilities, he cannot take credit for this development.

Dromund Kaas could be as big as the pile of poodoo hat regularly flows from your mouth for all I care, it wouldn't change a thing. The Sith Emperor is not capable of corrupting flora and fauna with his presence or with sorcery as the Son is. Nor is he capable of doing the opposite as the Daughter is.

I think I failed to stress the fact that the Daughter's presence is capable of spontaneous generation of life.

Originally posted by Beniboybling

Post-ROTJ is non-canon, my knowledge of Star Wars is absolute. 😆


Technically none of the EU is canon, though.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Technically none of the EU is canon, though.
But there is no chance the post-ROTJ is coming back.

Beniboyling, where did you find the quote "Revan has become more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of," during the Foundry fight? You mention it here: http://www.swtor.com/community/showpost.php?p=5437480&postcount=69. I have looked through 19 videos of the Foundry fight and couldn't find it. 😬

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Yes there is, the Sith Emperor corrupted the planet's stratosphere and altogether contributed to the already present dark side nexus on the planet.

Atmosphere is more appropriate term, corruption covered ionosphere as well. In addition to this corruption, Emperor created a powerful nexus of the dark side in the planet:

Burial place, prison, and reliquary, the Dark Temple was built on the orders of the Emperor to seal away powerful artifacts and the Emperor's enemies, both alive and dead. The temple became a nexus of dark side energy as the Emperor performed rituals within, drawing strength and knowledge from his captives. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

These two developments would have started chain of events leading to corruption of flora and fauna.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Any changes to the flora and fauna were inadvertent and not a direct effect of the Sith Emperor's power i.e. he cannot use the Force to directly corrupted planets. Nor is adapting to a darker environment anything to do with corruption, rather evolution.

What do you assume by corruption of a planet? Should corruption of its atmosphere be regarded as genuine corruption of a planet or corruption of its flora and fauna only?

Emperor have esoteric talents, he corrupted a planet with his esoteric talents. These actions represent his power and command of the dark side, Emperor spent great deal of energy at corrupting the atmosphere of a planet, use of his power is implied.

Power hungry, the Emperor spent great energy discovering and perfecting esoteric rites of darkness – rituals that wrecked the atmosphere of Dromund Kaas, transforming the ionosphere into a swirling electric storm. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Holonet: Dromund Kaas)

[i]Originally posted by Beniboybling
It is therefore irrelevant in terms of his abilities, he cannot take credit for this development.

Do you even understand what I am asserting? I guess not.

Originally posted by Beniboybling
Dromund Kaas could be as big as the pile of poodoo hat regularly flows from your mouth for all I care, it wouldn't change a thing.

Size matters

Originally posted by Beniboybling
The Sith Emperor is not capable of corrupting flora and fauna with his presence or with sorcery as the Son is. Nor is he capable of doing the opposite as the Daughter is.

I am not sure why you are involving The Ones in this matter. The Ones and Emperor both demonstrated the capability to alter environments in impressive ways. Environment covers atmosphere, flora and fauna.

Revan is Vader / Bane level in my book.

👆

1/2. Concerning the comics what you provided is inadequate, it is not only supposition, but it is from an inferior source. It is inadequate proof and therefore I am not obliged to provide a counter argument.

The comic clearly demonstrates the time lapse between events...time lapses that support my defense. So you are disregarding the comic because it does not suit your argument's purposes? Just stop right there. So, I accept your concession here. Let us keep track of how many times you gave up. I am rather annoyed though, because I thought I was getting educated.
watch?v=acOXoSqBNmw

3. If you want to assume that then fine, but unfortunately that supposition is no more valid than mine. But the fact is Yoda did have time to gather power in that situation, whether you believe he did or not, so it cannot be used as a definitive example of a situation in which Yoda did not have time to gather he power and still instantly achieved powerful feats. Because in this situation he did, so my point still stands.

Your point does not stand because you cannot prove he gathered strength. The point of you bringing this up was evidence he requires time, yet you have yet to show anything that proves such. Remember now, you are the one who is debating against *me*, not the other way around. I merely have to defend my argument, you need to beat it. So far, you have failed to even scratch it. Look at another TK feat from Yoda in the same TV series, him and Mace release a telekinetic attack at the same time. It didn't require any time for Yoda to charge up like you continue to ridiculously suggest.

__________________________________________

Originally posted by Beniboybling (Two posts ago)
4. In regards to the AoTC scene, I fail to see how you can argue that he didn't struggle. It is blatantly self evident. Yoda grunts with exertion and his hands tremble. Please, explain to me how this is not an indication of struggling. You failed to do so the first time, here is your second chance. How does this in anyway convey ease, and how is it in anyway incompatible with the movie? Look at the scene, Yoda's hands wave, the boulders drop to the sides. But the physical exertion and struggling is still there. You are reading between the lines here, and assuming that the brevity and off-hand nature of the sentence combined, suggests ease. That is your interpretation, I on the other hand, am dealing with the facts.

Originally posted by Beniboybling (Last post)
Anyway, allow me to explain. It is true that Yoda deflected Dooku's attacks easily, because it was well within his power the guy can lift entire armies, lifting some boulders would have required a fraction of his Force energy. But that doesn't change the fact he struggle to gather these energies, as he always does in a combat situation. The fact that Yoda is old does not change the fact that he is more than capable of handling himself in battle.

Now, I don't have any issue if someone brings up new evidence on a previously conceded point in a debate.
But don't you ****ing dare try to change your *entire* argument around. Do I really have to reference to our arguments here?

Your argument: Yoda had difficulty moving the boulders and and with exertion.
My defense: "Yoda easily deflected such assaults, and even repulsed Dooku's Force Lightning attacks."
Your response: You don't understand, Yoda performed the feat easy.

Now, as you can see, you have lost on this point as well. Hell, you are now reaching the point of agreeing with me. I accept your concession here also. 👆

5. Well, as much as I respect Silver2467, I disagree with you both. And what you have highlighted proves nothing. Look at the scene, or rather listen to it. Here that? That is the sound of "hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor."

It is the sound of the pods Sidious is launching, colliding with those below as Yoda tries to evade them. It makes no sense in regards to the plot and the environment that Yoda would be throwing pods back. The plot because it was showing Sidious' overdramatised superiority and power, and the environment because Yoda lacked the high ground to lift and hurl pods.

There is a large difference from two objects crashing against each other at full force and an object crashing into a stationary object. Take note how the text says they crashed and crushed "against each other". By definition, this indicates an opposite relationship or an action (throwing the pods against one another) that is reciprocal (they both did it equally) among the members of the set (Darth Sidious and Yoda). This definition fits my argument *exactly*, not yours.

6. No, actually, I was specifically very clear in what I said to point out that I am not contradicting myself. Official sources state that the novel is canon unless it conflicts with events in the movie, in which case the movie always takes superiority. This quote I posted aligns with the movie just fine, unless you have a reason that it doesn't?

Anyway, the fact that he became more settled indicates that it got easier for him to deflect it as time went on, whereas you argued the opposite. The fact that Yoda can still seen to be struggling at the end of the lightning burst only indicates he needs even more time that that to become completely settled - time one should note he had against Sidious.

But that still doesn't change the fact that he in the end deflected it easily. As stated by a canonical source that interestingly you choose to ignore.


You do understand that the word "settled" has numerous meanings and not one of them means "easily?"

"...become even more settled in his defensive posture."
&#8213;Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones

I would say based off context, it would rather be referring "to become fixed, resolved, or established". Though, hopefully you can agree having a definition war is a waist of our time.

7. Facial features is just one part of the puzzle. The other more important feature is the distance of the lightining, at first it starts up right in Yoda's face to the point where he is physically recoiling from it, whereas Sidious is moving forward. This is a clear indicator that Yoda's tutanimis is failing as the kinetic force is taking its toll.

After that Yoda gets his second wind and begins pushing the energy back towards Sidious, and no longer has to recoil. Instead it is Sidious recoiling and as it zoom's out we can see Yoda has concentrated the energy almost completely, reinforced by the fact it no longer has kinetic Force.

And that is exactly what happens against Dooku, his hand goes back, and then it goes forward again.

The Dooku and Palpatine encounters are very different. They can't really be compared to one another. The Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Scholastic novel by Patricia C. Wrede explains the difference to us.
Yoda performs two separate Force powers against Dooku's lightning. Firstly, he uses Tutaminis to absorb the lightning, and then Force Deflection to redirect it back at Yoda. I didn't know I had to explain this.

Force Absorption (Tutaminis):
"He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power."
&#8213;Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

- - - - -
Force Deflection:
"Nyriss's eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her."
&#8213;Star Wars The Old Republic: Revan

- - - - -

Yoda's only successful absorb/deflect against lightning was against Dooku, hence why the topic focused on that. You can see looking at the .gif that Yoda struggled mainly at the Force Deflection part. By this point, Yoda already has absorbed Dooku's lightning's energy and, according to you, had time to gather his power. Despite this, his physical features (which you seem to be obsessed with) show more strain at the end then any point at the beginning (which according to you should be his weakest point).

Now, you can't compare these two performances to Yoda and Darth Sidious' lightning. Why? Yoda ultimately failed to deflect it back at Darth Sidious. Yoda was trying to gather the lightning's energy into an orb to fire back at Sidious, but it overloaded and exploded, throwing the combatants apart. This is explained in the Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Scholastic novel by Patricia C. Wrede:

"Yoda caught it. The blue energy built into a glowing ball in his hand, ready to throw back at the Sith Lord the moment the attack stopped. But Palpatine didn't stop; the Force lightning came in a steady crackle, building more and more, until neither of them could hold it any longer, and the blast knocked them both out of the pod."
&#8213;Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith; Scholastic Book

Now, not only was Yoda doing better with Tutaminis at the start, as explained in the above quote (He was able to catch the lightning at the start, but as time passed, he grew weaker and weaker), but his "raw power" was ultimately unable to overcome Palaptne's lightning, which is weaker then the Sith Emperor's. 🙂

Originally posted by DarthAnt66
Palaptne's lightning, which is weaker then the Sith Emperor's. 🙂 [/B]

Que??

It is.

Originally posted by Nephthys
It is.

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