Revan and Malak vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
yeah but I think his point was that Kun wuldnt know the weaknesses of Vaders suit the way Sidious does.

The "weaknesses" of his armor would be fairly simple for anyone with half a brain to figure out. It's operated via an electronics system, ergo Kun alters the system so it shuts down.

Originally posted by Elite Hunter
As far as sith (known sith) go I would still rank Sids,Bane,Caedus,Kun and Nihilus(stupid drain) ahead of him for sure. Personally I say that Vader is right below Revan but not by much but above Malak and Dooku.

I personally would put Bane, Revan, Kun, Malak and Dooku below Vader in terms of force power. Could they beat him in a fight? Certainly possible if Vader (which he can) doesn't block Sith lightning or any power that compromises his life support systems. He's more vulnerable but also more powerful IMV.

Originally posted by Master Crimzon
While I certainly agree with you about that sort of logic being ridiculous, do you think Vader could take on Mace in a fight?

However, Vader doesn't have much a chance at all in a lightsaber duel. Mace was fast enough to tie up Grievous with an offensive barrage, and managed to defeat Darth Sidious in personal combat. As skilled as Vader has become, he can't win against someone who is at least as proficient with the blade as he is while also having the advantage of being notably faster.

So clearly, I think it could easily go either way.

Whoa you been away for a long time. Well welcome back.

Originally posted by Advent

Too bad none of which could withstand Exar Kun's unique abilities and dark side knowledge (it's stated in the JA Sourcebook that what Kun learned on Yavin was exclusive to Kun and not known by Vader). I doubt Vader would have a defense for an attack that he doesn't even know about.
[/B]

Originally posted by Advent

All that sounds like is electronic manipulation, a technique known by Kun as well. [/B]

Btw are you implying that kun defeats vader rather easily?

Originally posted by Schwarzenegger
Whoa you been away for a long time. Well welcome back.

Thanks. It seems every time I check this site you always have a new username. 😛

Ah ok, i didn't know that much about kun as i have no access to any of the sourcebooks. Btw the things he learned was it all lost and forgotten on yavin IV?

It was destroyed during the Jedi's final assault on Yavin, IIRC.

But, the sourcebook specifically mentions that Darth Vader didn't have knowledge of what Kun learned from Sadow's notes.

Btw are you implying that kun defeats vader rather easily?

Yeah, while I'd agree that Vader has a higher mastery and more experience, Kun has the upper hand in actual techniques. His defensive capabilities are shown to be enough when he withstands the most powerful ability the light side of the Force has to offer when he's off guard. Compare this to Vader, who wouldn't have any abilities to protect himself with from Kun's attacks.

Plus, his nifty gauntlet would come in handy considering it can repeatedly fire massive blasts of destructive energy with no down time and is stated to "radically enhance the user's telekinetic ability" (DSSB). And his power in the Force was strong enough that even as a 4,000 year old weakened spirit he had Luke Skywalker shitting his pants when he possessed Kyp (as you should know already since I've argued this before).

Along with other showings and quotes, it's clear Kun would match Vader in power and certainly beats him in a fight, especially if lightsabers are involved.

Originally posted by Advent
[B]Thanks. It seems every time I check this site you always have a new username. 😛

It was destroyed during the Jedi's final assault on Yavin, IIRC.

But, the sourcebook specifically mentions that Darth Vader didn't have knowledge of what Kun learned from Sadow's notes.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Welcome back indeed!
Actually, I think a bit's changed what with KOTOR and the like so quite a bit survived Yavin's inferno...the Night Beast, the remaining members of the Brotherhood, quite a bit of knowledge-in Complete Locations, Palpatine's had quite a bit excavated.

Good to see you're still around, Lightsnake. Thanks!

Are you referring to the "brotherhood" that consisted of a handful of apprentices? Err, remind me where it's mentioned that any of them were even on the planet. Crado died before the attack, Oss turned to the light side, and Jolee's wife dies on Yavin. Provide proof the others survived or that they were even still alive at that point.

And Kun knew the mutated Massassi would be safe when he states "you will be a last surprise for [the Jedi]!". Indicating everything and everyone else would be ****ed.

Yep, true...but Vader's one thing, Palpatine's another. Jedi vs. Sith confirms that Palpatine knows all of Sadow's knowledge-and by extension, Kun and Nadd's. Depending on the time, Palpatine could have allowwed Vader some of the knowledge

1. Quote from JvS please.

2. It's a leap to assume that Sidious taught Vader jack, because even if Palpatine had Sadow's knowledge - it contradicts nothing in the JA Sourcebook. It states that Vader doesn't know such.

Originally posted by Advent

But, the sourcebook specifically mentions that Darth Vader didn't have knowledge of what Kun learned from Sadow's notes.

Theres nothing to indicate that vader even learned any of sadow or kuns stuff in the first place.

Originally posted by Faunus
I think Vader could definitely 'take on' Mace, although I'd love to see how that one would turn out. Due to his inability to summon Sith lightning Vader would pretty much be limited to telekinetic assaults, unless someone can provide me with another branch of offensive Force-use that he has access to. Meanwhile, Mace has shown himself to be capable of grounding a Force-grip from Kar Vastor while being hurled into tree trunks and akk hounds, so chances are he'd be able to somewhat mitigate the advantage his opponent has in terms of sheer power.

However, Vader doesn't have much a chance at all in a lightsaber duel. Mace was fast enough to tie up Grievous with an offensive barrage, and managed to defeat Darth Sidious in personal combat. As skilled as Vader has become, he can't win against someone who is at least as proficient with the blade as he is while also having the advantage of being notably faster.

So clearly, I think it could easily go either way.

As you have mentioned above, Vader stands no chance against Mace in lightsaber combat, as he was capable of matching Grievous "20 strikes per second" in speed- and his Vaapad will be able to grant him some of Vader's force-aided strength advantage (as it allowed him to gain Sidious' otherwise superior speed).

In a force fight, Vader has more of a chance due to his considerable dark side knowledge, experience, and, as you have mentioned, his rather extreme telekinetic abilities. He also displayed the ability to use the environment to his advantage at multiple times, and Mace will be hard pressed to avoid all of he missles Vader would send at him.

Note, however, that Vader seems to prefer to engage his opponents in a lightsaber duel before using the force to gain an advantage. And I'm pretty sure that Mace could end a lightsaber duel against Vader very quickly. It's for that reason that I give Mace an edge in this fight- but if Vader plays his cards right, he could defeat Mace. Though it will be far from easy.

Originally posted by Advent
The "weaknesses" of his armor would be fairly simple for anyone with half a brain to figure out. It's operated via an electronics system, ergo Kun alters the system so it shuts down.

and so Vaders just gna stand there and let Kun do that to him right??

Originally posted by Advent
1. Quote from JvS please.

2. It's a leap to assume that Sidious taught Vader jack, because even if Palpatine had Sadow's knowledge - it contradicts nothing in the JA Sourcebook. It states that Vader doesn't know such.

I believe this is what Lightsnake is referring to.

Before the excerpt from Sadow's holocron Sidious said Sadow "left detailed records of his work"

Then this is what Sidious said about Naga Sadow and his knowledge after the excerpt from Sadow's holocron.

Ah,but Naga Sadow was far too generous with his knowledge. Far more than I. Also,despite his powers,he was ultimately undone by his own impatience to expand the sith empire. After his death,Sadow's secrets were gained by Freedon Nadd,who passed them on to Exar Kun. Because none of them came to a glorious end,I think it's best that I guard Sadow's teachings a bit longer. However, I am tempted to incorporate some of his findings into my own book, The Creation of Monsters

Originally posted by Advent
Good to see you're still around, Lightsnake. Thanks!

Are you referring to the "brotherhood" that consisted of a handful of apprentices? Err, remind me where it's mentioned that any of them were even on the planet. Crado died before the attack, Oss turned to the light side, and Jolee's wife dies on Yavin. Provide proof the others survived or that they were even still alive at that point.

And Kun knew the mutated Massassi would be safe when he states "you will be a [b]last surprise for [the Jedi]!". Indicating everything and everyone else would be ****ed.

1. Quote from JvS please.

2. It's a leap to assume that Sidious taught Vader jack, because even if Palpatine had Sadow's knowledge - it contradicts nothing in the JA Sourcebook. It states that Vader doesn't know such. [/B]

Originally posted by DARTH POWER
and so Vaders just gna stand there and let Kun do that to him right??

He'd probably be busy bowing down to his new master, Exar Kun.

Seriously though, I never said he would. Your point was that you would need an intricate knowledge of how Darth Vader's suit worked to shut it down, which isn't the case. Kun could use the Force to disable his life support (in more ways than one), ergo it's just one more advantage over the many he has already.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
Quite welcome, lad to see you back

Yes, well, thanks KOTOR for that retcon.
And Jolee's wife didn;t die on Yavin...the surviving Brotherhood members and the Krath launched an attack on the Tetan system at the end.

Jolee states that she "went on to kill many Jedi during the war until she, herself, was slain in the final battle". The "final battle" of the GSW was the Jedi's wall of light assault, Lightsnake. Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, I'm inclined to believe she died there.

We know Larad Noon survived it...and Suvam Tan was likely a member of the Brotherhood who was on Yavin 4 during the Jedi attack along with quite a few others.

"The Jedi attack resulted in an immense conflagaration in the jungles, obliterating the trees and scorching the temple complex so completely that nothing could survive." -- The New Essential Chronology, pg. 20

And the actual source material itself dictates that "nothing can survive".

Elite Hunter provided it. If you haven't read the Sith section of JvS, I do recommend it.

Just wondering at what point in time the source was referring to. Palpatine tended to be an erratic teacher at the best of times.

It was a reference in general - if you have to associate it with a specific time period, then ROTJ.

Originally posted by Advent
He'd probably be busy bowing down to his new master, Exar Kun.

BTW how old do you think kun is? If he is mid 30-40's and already that powerful i think through time he would be even stronger by the time he reaches dooku's age.

Originally posted by Advent

Jolee states that she "went on to kill many Jedi during the war until she, herself, was slain in the final battle". The "final battle" of the GSW was the Jedi's wall of light assault, Lightsnake. Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary, I'm inclined to believe she died there.

"The Jedi attack resulted in an immense conflagaration in the jungles, obliterating the trees and scorching the temple complex so completely that nothing could survive." -- The New Essential Chronology, pg. 20

And the actual source material itself dictates that "nothing can survive".

It was a reference in general - if you have to associate it with a specific time period, then ROTJ. [/B]

I think Vader could definitely 'take on' Mace, although I'd love to see how that one would turn out. Due to his inability to summon Sith lightning Vader would pretty much be limited to telekinetic assaults, unless someone can provide me with another branch of offensive Force-use that he has access to. Meanwhile, Mace has shown himself to be capable of grounding a Force-grip from Kar Vastor while being hurled into tree trunks and akk hounds, so chances are he'd be able to somewhat mitigate the advantage his opponent has in terms of sheer power.

Vader's TK abilities are more then enough to deal with Mace in a force fight look how he simply mauls this Jedi in TFU:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAn00Gfg4tU&feature=related - the end of the vid

Then proceeds to do some unknown Dark Side attack that looks like a hadoken:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00xbRoqVwBM - 2:16

Not to mention that devastating force wave he throws out.

And, yeah he managed to ground Vastors force grip back into the jungle...only for the jungle to attack him in turn, Vastor turned Mace into a rag-doll.

Now that Vader's been stated as being superior to Kar Vastor, if Mace had so many problems with Vastor to the point where in his head he flat out admitted even on his best day he could never beat him, imagine how Vader would maul him with the force, considering he's you know better in every respect then the guy Mace can never beat straight up.

However, Vader doesn't have much a chance at all in a lightsaber duel. Mace was fast enough to tie up Grievous with an offensive barrage, and managed to defeat Darth Sidious in personal combat. As skilled as Vader has become, he can't win against someone who is at least as proficient with the blade as he is while also having the advantage of being notably faster.

The same Grievous, that Count Dooku regularly thrashed around? The same Grievous that the movie showed Obi Wan beat rather easily. That same Count Dooku who Anakin "made a joke out of" , the same Obi Wan who barley beat a deranged, heartbroken Vader. Mace beating Grievous is NOT proof of him being superior in saber combat to Vader. As for Sidious, the whole scene where Anakin is dumbfounded by their speed is n-canon as it directly contradicts the movie in every way as Anakin didn't even come into the room till Mace had Sidious on the ground.

How many Jedi must Vader beat/kill for this "He not FAST!!" crap to be thrown out the window? How many of the Jedi he's faced have had the advantage of speed on him? Largely none, because Vader is not the slow clunky doofus we see in ANH, Vader with the enhancements of the suit is very fast and very agile, not to mention the power boost he gains from the mechanical enhancements. The only person who has outclassed Vader was the reborn Maul a pure dark side clone/apparition, and even then he wasn't out matched to the point where he was a helpless child in awe by Maul's speed. The Prophets of The Dark Side noted that they were nearly equals.

However, I can see Mace beating Vader in a saber duel but it would be because of his Vaapad (Throwing Vaders rage and such back at him) NOT his blinding speed, and the victory would only happen after a while, which I doubt Vader would even let last that long considering he has the clear advantage in the force department, and KNOWS of Mace Windu's dueling skills, why would he even bother with a saber duel?

The academy that Revan took over were leftovers from Kun's brotherhood also.

@ Schwarzenegger:

There's no way Kun is 40! 😆

Ulic Qel-Droma was only 22 when Exar fell from power. I'd say he's around the same age, because at the beginning of DLOTS, he's still considered a padawan.

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The 'Final Battle' was the last battle of the Empress Teta System to be exact. The Krath and surviving Brotherhood used it as a final base. The war persisted briefly when Kun dies...I believe that's in both KOTOR and The New Essential Chronology.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Third_Battle_of_Empress_Teta

Well, Suvan Tam, Larad Noon

Either way: prove Nayama, Tan, and Noon were on Yavin IV during the Jedi's strike. Indeed, it would seem unlikely considering "nothing could survive".

Logically, they couldn't have been there when it happened. If we assumed that as correct, then no contradictions arise.

the Terentateks

The terentateks only remained because they weren't on the planet. They were on the Outer Rim planets lurking, according to the NEC.

Larad fled Yavin 4 after his master's defeat

Do you have any source confirming Larad was even there in the first place?

and Tan confirms he was there at the conflagration that killed his masters.

I'd trust the omniscient narration over a Rodian slave's account.

Well, we know at those points, he'd already had Yavin IV excavated-he'd had the artifacts from there since before ROTs and even kept a mural he got from one of the temples on his wall.

When does Sidious embark on this grand adventure to dig up treasure on Yavin? Even if he did manage to salvage scraps and pieces of scrolls, there's nothing linking Sadow's teachings to Vader.

I think it is more likely that Sidious did not pass on Sadow's knowledge and Kun's by extension onto Vader. The quote said Sadow was more generous than Sidious with the knowledge and Sidious goes onto say that he would guard it.

This quote from Sidious in JvS ("On Selecting Apprentices"😉also supports the theory that he didn't taught Vader anything from Sadow's/Kun's knowledge.

Because you are not yet a Master yourself,you might assume that it is the master's duty to bestow all of his knowledge of the darkside to his apprentice. You could not be more mistaken. It is the apprentice's duty to learn all he can from the master, and the master's right to refrain from revealing all of his secrets. My own master, Darth Plagueis made the grave error of teaching me too much, at which point he became unnecessary.

for those people who say Vaders slow,, he fights pretty damn fast in the Force Unleashed game..

also doesnt anyone remember how fast Luke leaped in ESB, and yet he was no match for Vader.. clearly Vader could match those speeds otherwise Luke could have thrashed him with speed alone.