Before I begin, please note that I've read your 4 part post and a few from the past page, as well. But the bulk of that material has been in response to rather haphazard presentation of possible pro-Sith points. If you feel that I've repeated something you’ve addressed, you may quote yourself. However, I feel that in whole, the arguments in Kas'im's favor are more powerful than the board's established consensus about Kenobi's abilities. (Note: this does not mean that I am closed to the possibility of such an argument in favor of Kenobi, just that without a novel approach to his defense, I'm disinclined to side with the Jedi in this case.)
My line of thought was fairly straightforward. Neither combatant is known for attacking with the Force, so flashy attacks will not decide the day. As Masters of their orders their metaphysical abilities cannot be disregarded. So the second point of focus must be on passive usage of the Force. My intuition is that the two are roughly even in this area, due to a specific interaction of their fighting styles. Finally, a decision about deadliness will boil down to technical mastery of the blade. In my eyes, at least, Kas'im has the advantage here. I admit that this is a subjective call, but it seems to me that for these discussions to be valuable at all requires that we attempt to understand one anothers' mode of thought first, before attempting to find flaws. Here, then, are my grounds for voting Kas'im in the poll.
First, the battle is most likely not going to resemble Yoda/Dooku in AotC. Neither is an ostentatious user of the Force. Kas'im has only been noted to blow open a "heavy door" with telekinesis and push his opponent down some stairs. Attacking with powers is not part of his combat style. Kenobi is a Jedi, who make a point not to use the Force as a weapon. Even in the Clone Wars series, I've only ever seen Kenobi use his telekinesis as a last-minute defensive tool to get himself out of corners. Meanwhile, Kas'im's defense has defended against a Force wave of sufficient strength to destroy an ancient temple. So Kas'im's offensive capabilities are either minimal or unsubstantiated while his defense is more than sufficient for the unlikely event of an attack from Kenobi.
Notably, the Force is at its most powerful when not being used to propel bricks. Instead, a gentle nudge of awareness, or the sharpening of reflexes can alter the flow of history, and certainly an armed conflict. Both combatants have access to this buff; even untrained users (like Anakin or Des) experience brief flashes of precognition. Precog plays a much larger part in duels than mere physique. However, this is another area where strength can be overridden by skill. Kas'im explains to Bane exactly why he emphasizes technical proficiency so forcefully:
Path of Darkness
Using a sequence in combat allowed the students to free their minds from thought as their bodies automatically continued through the moves. Using sequences was more efficient and much quicker than considering and initiating each strike or block on its own, providing an enormous advantage over an opponent unfamiliar with the technique.
[...]
he was able to devote less and less of his mental energy to the physical actions of thrust, parry, and counterthrust. This allowed him to keep his mind focused so he could use the Force to anticipate his opponent's moves, while at the same time obscuring and confusing his enemy's own precognitive senses.
[...]
he was able to transition smoothly from the end of one sequence into the beginning of another, opening up a wider range of attack-and-defense combinations. And more options made it more difficult for a foe to use the Force to anticipate his actions.
[...]
As you already know, the Force is the real key to victory in any confrontation. However, the equation is not so simple. Someone well trained in lightsaber combat can defeat an opponent who is stronger in the Force. The Force allows you to anticipate your opponent's moves and counter them with your own. But the more options your foe has available, the more difficult it is to predict which will be chosen.
Path of Darkness
You've moved far beyond sequences and forms," the Master told him. "In that last pass you broke off your attack in the middle of one sequence and came at me from a completely different and unexpected angle.""I did?" Bane was surprised. "I ... I didn't really mean to."
"That's what made it such a potentially devastating move," Kas'im explained. "You're letting the Force guide your blade now. You act without thought or reason. You're driven by passion: fury, anger . . . even hate. Your saber has become an extension of the dark side.
Meanwhile, Kenobi's precognition is powerful. Possibly even uniquely good, he is described repeatedly (and poetically!) as attaining an unrivaled level of closeness with the Force. This is well chronicled in the Ep III novelization but I am not in charge of marshaling quotes for Kenobi. Suffice it to say that he is highly praised. However, this very openness to the Force is painted as something of a liability:
They didn't even comprehend how utterly he dominated the combat. Because they fought as they had been trained, by releasing all desire and allowing the Force to flow through them, they had no hope of countering Dooku's mastery of Sith techniques They had learned nothing since he had bested them on Geonosis.They allowed the Force to direct them; Dooku directed the Force.
So the only possible decisive characteristic comes down to lightsaber technique. But Kenobi's mastery of alternate forms is not nearly as advanced as Kas'im's own. As I've quoted and explained repeatedly, Kas'im is the source for the entirety of his students' muscle-memory for all of the variants of weapons they use. Meanwhile, Kenobi's attempts to use other forms of combat are labeled as "laughable" by Dooku. This is not an area where I believe that inter-era comparisons are valuable; the individual combatants have objective levels of knowledge: one is innovating on all fronts, while the other is noteworthy in one, and passable in others. That decision is not tough.
I'd like to dip into the rest of the debate only briefly:
Bane has a prodigious learning-rate. He consumed Holocrons (noted to contain entire libraries' worth of knowledge) with extreme speed. For him to internalize the Magnificent’s combat style within a short apprenticeship (months upon months of training, according to the book) is not out-of character, and speaks to Bane's abilities rather than a shortcoming in Kas'im.
Additionally, I found your "math" to be a little specious; "the average shortest noticeable dark period" is 16 milliseconds according to the Wiki. Kas'im's blades are said to multiply in appearance while using Jar'Kai: "He seemed to wield six blades rather than two." So each blade (there are two of them) is moving to three different distinct places each 16 milliseconds. Not "sheets of plasma" but distinct blades. Thus, (6 strikes) per (.016 seconds) = 375 strikes per second. Using math on hyperbole is rarely a good idea.
Originally posted by Zampanó
Before I begin, please note that I've read your 4 part post and a few from the past page, as well. But the bulk of that material has been in response to rather haphazard presentation of possible pro-Sith points. If you feel that I've repeated something you’ve addressed, you may quote yourself. However, I feel that in whole, the arguments in Kas'im's favor are more powerful than the board's established consensus about Kenobi's abilities. (Note: this does not mean that I am closed to the possibility of such an argument in favor of Kenobi, just that without a novel approach to his defense, I'm disinclined to side with the Jedi in this case.)My line of thought was fairly straightforward. Neither combatant is known for attacking with the Force, so flashy attacks will not decide the day. As Masters of their orders their metaphysical abilities cannot be disregarded. So the second point of focus must be on passive usage of the Force. My intuition is that the two are roughly even in this area, due to a specific interaction of their fighting styles. Finally, a decision about deadliness will boil down to technical mastery of the blade. In my eyes, at least, Kas'im has the advantage here. I admit that this is a subjective call, but it seems to me that for these discussions to be valuable at all requires that we attempt to understand one anothers' mode of thought first, before attempting to find flaws. Here, then, are my grounds for voting Kas'im in the poll.
First, the battle is most likely not going to resemble Yoda/Dooku in AotC. Neither is an ostentatious user of the Force. Kas'im has only been noted to blow open a "heavy door" with telekinesis and push his opponent down some stairs. Attacking with powers is not part of his combat style. Kenobi is a Jedi, who make a point not to use the Force as a weapon. Even in the Clone Wars series, I've only ever seen Kenobi use his telekinesis as a last-minute defensive tool to get himself out of corners. Meanwhile, Kas'im's defense has defended against a Force wave of sufficient strength to destroy an ancient temple. So Kas'im's offensive capabilities are either minimal or unsubstantiated while his defense is more than sufficient for the unlikely event of an attack from Kenobi.
Notably, the Force is at its most powerful when not being used to propel bricks. Instead, a gentle nudge of awareness, or the sharpening of reflexes can alter the flow of history, and certainly an armed conflict. Both combatants have access to this buff; even untrained users (like Anakin or Des) experience brief flashes of precognition. Precog plays a much larger part in duels than mere physique. However, this is another area where strength can be overridden by skill. Kas'im explains to Bane exactly why he emphasizes technical proficiency so forcefully:
Kas'im himself designed these sequences, "carefully choreographed series of multiple strikes and parries drawn from [...]chosen style(s)" for all of the existent lightsaber forms for many different types of weapon: saber, staff, and whip, along with every other weapon-type used by any Sith Student in the era. A general knowledge of weapons and forms is probably shared by most masters whose students choose a fighting style alien to their specialty. However, because of Drew's very strange formalization of lightsaber combat, Kas'im has essentially recreated or distilled all seven styles for all types of weapons. He is the originator of lightsaber combat as it is practiced in the era. More to the point, he is "beyond" such tricks:
Kas'im commends Bane on moving beyond rote repetition of his methods, indicating that Kas'im himself is beyond that level in all of the areas where those methods are used, to wit, all seven forms of lightsaber combat. (Also, this confirms that there are actually mechanical differences between forms, as opposed to just varying philosophies.) This is valuable in fighting even non-sequence users: "So by studying different styles, I could negate that advantage?" Kas'im has done exactly that. In much the way that Bane has internalized his shortcuts and grasped the overall dynamics of a given form, Kas'im has internalized lightsaber combat as a whole. This does not make him invulnerable, but it certainly "frees up" his mind for the "battle of wills" that occupies the higher planes of the conflict.
Meanwhile, Kenobi's precognition is powerful. Possibly even uniquely good, he is described repeatedly (and poetically!) as attaining an unrivaled level of closeness with the Force. This is well chronicled in the Ep III novelization but I am not in charge of marshaling quotes for Kenobi. Suffice it to say that he is highly praised. [b]However
, this very openness to the Force is painted as something of a liability:So even if Kenobi's precognition is particularly good, it faces a brand of Force usage that is specifically unhelpful to Jedi. Moreover, it faces a library of formal techniques that beggars other instructors as well as intuitive alternatives borne out of a creator's intimate understanding of the all possible forms involved in the fight. Thus, Kenobi's good precognition is more than matched by Kas'im's above average capacity available for "obscuring and confusing his enemy's own precognitive senses."
So the only possible decisive characteristic comes down to lightsaber technique. But Kenobi's mastery of alternate forms is not nearly as advanced as Kas'im's own. As I've quoted and explained repeatedly, Kas'im is the source for the entirety of his students' muscle-memory for all of the variants of weapons they use. Meanwhile, Kenobi's attempts to use other forms of combat are labeled as "laughable" by Dooku. This is not an area where I believe that inter-era comparisons are valuable; the individual combatants have objective levels of knowledge: one is innovating on all fronts, while the other is noteworthy in one, and passable in others. That decision is not tough.
I'd like to dip into the rest of the debate only briefly:
Bane has a prodigious learning-rate. He consumed Holocrons (noted to contain entire libraries' worth of knowledge) with extreme speed. For him to internalize the Magnificent’s combat style within a short apprenticeship (months upon months of training, according to the book) is not out-of character, and speaks to Bane's abilities rather than a shortcoming in Kas'im.Additionally, I found your "math" to be a little specious; "the average shortest noticeable dark period" is 16 milliseconds according to the Wiki. Kas'im's blades are said to multiply in appearance while using Jar'Kai: "He seemed to wield six blades rather than two." So each blade (there are two of them) is moving to three different distinct places each 16 milliseconds. Not "sheets of plasma" but distinct blades. Thus, (6 strikes) per (.016 seconds) = 375 strikes per second. Using math on hyperbole is rarely a good idea. [/B]
That was surprisingly thorough.
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortisI like Obi Wan, but my favs are Dooku, Jinn and Quinlan Vos. Its just that I disagree with some statements about him, such as yours.
Jesus christ you some kind of crazed Obi-Wan fanboy?! He's really not all that great, very important character in saga, but average in the Force and never quite the top tier (e.g. Yoda etc) of saber combat.As Zampano said, Kas'im is plot device with lightsaber, his main trait is that he is INCREDIBLE with a lightsaber, its who his character is bro. Obi-Wan is basically outclassed and outgunned. kekekekekeBwahhahhahahah!
He was great enough to surve against Maul and vader, so I don't know why you say hes not great.
Originally posted by DARTH POWERDarth Power, I didn't complain about Jinn not being a force god, because I think he is one myself. I just disagree about him being higher ranked than Yoda overall.
Yes mnat801, TheOneOfMortis is right! Qui-Gon was a force god! How else do you explain the way he ragdolled Maul all over the place??
Originally posted by mnat801
I like Obi Wan, but my favs are Dooku, Jinn and Quinlan Vos. Its just that I disagree with some statements about him, such as yours.He was great enough to surve against Maul and vader, so I don't know why you say hes not great.
Originally posted by TheOneOfMortisThat's exactly how it works. I'm not the one who's trying to claim that Anakin slew Cin Drallig via superior force mastery- you are. So prove your assertion.Not how it works bro
I do doubt you [/B]idc. If I sent Lucas to your house and had him explain that Drallig was a master of all forms, you'd ask him to provide a source.
Originally posted by NephthysNo reason why it wouldn't. Contrary to popular belief, the support foundations of a building are not a couple of large beams located in the center of the building which holds it up, like the arches under a bridge. The support structure is laced throughout the entire building, like the ribs of an umbrella.
[B]Now the text indicates that the rest of the roof follows the front of the temple 'a second later'. Now I'm no expert on shockwaves (and neither are you), but I'd bet my bottom buck that the shockwave wouldn't reach the foundations and cause that degree of damage in that little amount of time, especially travelling through frigging stone, which isn't exactly known for its ability to allow energy to flow through it. Unless there specific damage to the support, something doesn't collapse under its own weight that swiftly, especially not when theres so many things holding it up, distributing the weight so well, as in the case of the Lehon temple.
What I think happened is that the hurrmazing power of the force wave shattered the immediate surrounding area, which "shook the building's foundations" and compromised its structural integrity- gravity did the rest.
Originally posted by Tzeentch._
That's exactly how it works. I'm not the one who's trying to claim that Anakin slew Cin Drallig via superior force mastery- you are. So prove your assertion.
Ok, hiw about we just ignore Cin Drallig in this discussion? Doesn't hurt my argument. It was KV bringing him up in some attempt to discredit Kas'im. It did not work as he was not able to prove that the situation compeltely applies.
idc. If I sent Lucas to your house and had him explain that Drallig was a master of all forms, you'd ask him to provide a source.
You dont need to send him bro, as he visit every april the 20th, and so does Nick (my birthday).
Originally posted by Zampanó
Before I begin, please note that I've read your 4 part post and a few from the past page, as well. But the bulk of that material has been in response to rather haphazard presentation of possible pro-Sith points. If you feel that I've repeated something you’ve addressed, you may quote yourself. However, I feel that in whole, the arguments in Kas'im's favor are more powerful than the board's established consensus about Kenobi's abilities. (Note: this does not mean that I am closed to the possibility of such an argument in favor of Kenobi, just that without a novel approach to his defense, I'm disinclined to side with the Jedi in this case.)My line of thought was fairly straightforward. Neither combatant is known for attacking with the Force, so flashy attacks will not decide the day. As Masters of their orders their metaphysical abilities cannot be disregarded. So the second point of focus must be on passive usage of the Force. My intuition is that the two are roughly even in this area, due to a specific interaction of their fighting styles. Finally, a decision about deadliness will boil down to technical mastery of the blade. In my eyes, at least, Kas'im has the advantage here. I admit that this is a subjective call, but it seems to me that for these discussions to be valuable at all requires that we attempt to understand one anothers' mode of thought first, before attempting to find flaws. Here, then, are my grounds for voting Kas'im in the poll.
First, the battle is most likely not going to resemble Yoda/Dooku in AotC. Neither is an ostentatious user of the Force. Kas'im has only been noted to blow open a "heavy door" with telekinesis and push his opponent down some stairs. Attacking with powers is not part of his combat style. Kenobi is a Jedi, who make a point not to use the Force as a weapon. Even in the Clone Wars series, I've only ever seen Kenobi use his telekinesis as a last-minute defensive tool to get himself out of corners. Meanwhile, Kas'im's defense has defended against a Force wave of sufficient strength to destroy an ancient temple. So Kas'im's offensive capabilities are either minimal or unsubstantiated while his defense is more than sufficient for the unlikely event of an attack from Kenobi.
Notably, the Force is at its most powerful when not being used to propel bricks. Instead, a gentle nudge of awareness, or the sharpening of reflexes can alter the flow of history, and certainly an armed conflict. Both combatants have access to this buff; even untrained users (like Anakin or Des) experience brief flashes of precognition. Precog plays a much larger part in duels than mere physique. However, this is another area where strength can be overridden by skill. Kas'im explains to Bane exactly why he emphasizes technical proficiency so forcefully:
Kas'im himself designed these sequences, "carefully choreographed series of multiple strikes and parries drawn from [...]chosen style(s)" for all of the existent lightsaber forms for many different types of weapon: saber, staff, and whip, along with every other weapon-type used by any Sith Student in the era. A general knowledge of weapons and forms is probably shared by most masters whose students choose a fighting style alien to their specialty. However, because of Drew's very strange formalization of lightsaber combat, Kas'im has essentially recreated or distilled all seven styles for all types of weapons. He is the originator of lightsaber combat as it is practiced in the era. More to the point, he is "beyond" such tricks:
Kas'im commends Bane on moving beyond rote repetition of his methods, indicating that Kas'im himself is beyond that level in all of the areas where those methods are used, to wit, all seven forms of lightsaber combat. (Also, this confirms that there are actually mechanical differences between forms, as opposed to just varying philosophies.) This is valuable in fighting even non-sequence users: "So by studying different styles, I could negate that advantage?" Kas'im has done exactly that. In much the way that Bane has internalized his shortcuts and grasped the overall dynamics of a given form, Kas'im has internalized lightsaber combat as a whole. This does not make him invulnerable, but it certainly "frees up" his mind for the "battle of wills" that occupies the higher planes of the conflict.
Meanwhile, Kenobi's precognition is powerful. Possibly even uniquely good, he is described repeatedly (and poetically!) as attaining an unrivaled level of closeness with the Force. This is well chronicled in the Ep III novelization but I am not in charge of marshaling quotes for Kenobi. Suffice it to say that he is highly praised. [b]However
, this very openness to the Force is painted as something of a liability:So even if Kenobi's precognition is particularly good, it faces a brand of Force usage that is specifically unhelpful to Jedi. Moreover, it faces a library of formal techniques that beggars other instructors as well as intuitive alternatives borne out of a creator's intimate understanding of the all possible forms involved in the fight. Thus, Kenobi's good precognition is more than matched by Kas'im's above average capacity available for "obscuring and confusing his enemy's own precognitive senses."
So the only possible decisive characteristic comes down to lightsaber technique. But Kenobi's mastery of alternate forms is not nearly as advanced as Kas'im's own. As I've quoted and explained repeatedly, Kas'im is the source for the entirety of his students' muscle-memory for all of the variants of weapons they use. Meanwhile, Kenobi's attempts to use other forms of combat are labeled as "laughable" by Dooku. This is not an area where I believe that inter-era comparisons are valuable; the individual combatants have objective levels of knowledge: one is innovating on all fronts, while the other is noteworthy in one, and passable in others. That decision is not tough.
I'd like to dip into the rest of the debate only briefly:
Bane has a prodigious learning-rate. He consumed Holocrons (noted to contain entire libraries' worth of knowledge) with extreme speed. For him to internalize the Magnificent’s combat style within a short apprenticeship (months upon months of training, according to the book) is not out-of character, and speaks to Bane's abilities rather than a shortcoming in Kas'im.Additionally, I found your "math" to be a little specious; "the average shortest noticeable dark period" is 16 milliseconds according to the Wiki. Kas'im's blades are said to multiply in appearance while using Jar'Kai: "He seemed to wield six blades rather than two." So each blade (there are two of them) is moving to three different distinct places each 16 milliseconds. Not "sheets of plasma" but distinct blades. Thus, (6 strikes) per (.016 seconds) = 375 strikes per second. Using math on hyperbole is rarely a good idea. [/B]
While I enjoyed reading this well thought out and logical post.. I'm still unclear on how you got to the conclusions you did even based on your post. It seems pretty clear to me that the best bet to take out Kenobi is via offensive force attacks... This has been shown tme and time again. Taking Kenobi out with the blade is a far harder proposition. Yet, you still believe Kas can do this.. because he's superior in the undertanding of more forms? I just don't buy that as the trumping factor you are making it out to be. Need I remind you about Mace conversation with Kenobi about being good in many forms.. creating your or form and being the master of one form. Needless to say, I'm not overly impressed with Kas being better in more forms and that will be the deciding factor.
To me, the deciding factor is kenobi's far superior swrord victories and feats as compared to Kas. You agree it will be decided in saber combat... yet you choose to go against the guy with superior feats and superior wins in this regard... This is the part that doesn't add up and I'd like you to expand on.
@-kV-
Read this:
One of the first lessons Kas'im taught students was how to build a protective shield around themselves in combat to prevent an enemy from using the Force against them. A Force-talented opponent could yank away your lightsaber, knock you off balance, or even extinguish your lightsaber's blade without the touch of a hand or weapon. A Force-shield was the most basic-and most necessary-protection there was.
It had become instinctive for all the apprentices, almost second nature. As soon as the blade was drawn, the protective veil went up. Guarding against the Force powers of the enemy and obscuring your own intentions required as much concentration and energy as augmenting your physical prowess or anticipating the moves of your foe. It was that unseen part of combat, the invisible battle of wills, not the obvious interaction of bodies and blades, that more often than not decided the fate of a duel. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)
Do you get the hint that why 'command of the Force' is so important?
It is a good point because it literally invalidates half your argument for Kas’im. Because of it, your statement that “Kas’im’s blade-work might be perfect” is speculation; an in-universe characterization by Bane, hardly an objective statement, called Kas’im “the perfect weapon.” In fact, if you accept that the passage was from Bane’s point of view, then you are conceding arguably your biggest point.
This is from the perspective of Lord Kaan;
Kas'im was a warrior; Kaan knew he chafed at their inactivity. Drills and exercises could not quench his desire for actual combat. At the Academy on Korriban the Blademaster had performed his duty without complaint. But here on Ruusan the promise of battle was too near, too insistent. The scent of blood was always in the air, mingling with the sweat of fear and anticipation. Here Kas'im could be satisfied only once he stood face-to-face with an enemy. Soon his frustration would boil over into rebellion, and Kaan could ill afford to lose the loyalty of the greatest swordsman of his camp. Fortunately, he had a way to deal with both his problems-Bane and Kas'im-in one fell swoop. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)
Bane is not the only individual to think highly of Kas'im.
Originally posted by -kV-
facepalmWtf? This made absolutely no sense. The seven classical lightsaber forms are constant.
I mentioned Sora Bulq to provide an example of an individual who received an objective description very similar to the subjective description provided by Bane. I mentioned Sora Bulq because despite these accolades thrown at him, he was not on the level of Yoda, Mace, Anakin, Dooku, and Obi-Wan.
As an example:
During the Sacking of Coruscant, Lord Praven killed Master Usma–one of the Jedi's most famous duelists–in an epic battle. (SWTOR: Codex Entry of Sith Lord Praven)
As far as Sora Bulq's relative standing in comparison to the other Jedi you mentioned is concerned; this is why I asked that how good is his command of the Force.
Originally posted by -kV-
Umm…what? This isn’t even responding to what I posted earlier.
Originally posted by -kV-
No, I am not suggesting that Anakin had reached his peak potential in this fight. That’s obviously not true. I am saying that Obi-Wan matched the TK waves of someone with insanely high Force potential and with raw Force power that Mace Windu said was above his.
Originally posted by -kV-
I agree with your second point, but want to add that defending against a TK is more difficult during the heat of combat than in “free time.”
I seriously doubt that Obi-Wan's push would pack as much power as that Force Wave unleashed by Bane to destroy the Temple.
Obi-Wan cannot overwhelm Kas'im with his Force powers IMO. His only chance is to prolong the duel as long as possible for him with his martial skills; but unfortunately for Obi-Wan, Kas'im doesn't tires quickly either.
This reminds me of a quote from Jedi Master Kriea:
"A… defensive technique. But effective. Use it if you do not wish to be hit, or if you are facing many opponents with blasters. With a lightsaber blade and enough skill in deflection, it is an excellent offense against blasters, but in other situations, it merely delays the inevitable."
Originally posted by -kV-
facepalm1.) No, at this point of time, you cannot argue that Bane is “noticeably ahead of Obi-Wan Kenobi in command of the Force.” Employing the Force during combat is different than in “free time.” Even then, for all this supposed “command of the Force,” Bane could only knock Kas’im off-balance while the other was appraising the layout. [sarcasm]Wonderful Force command![/sarcasm]
The fact that Kas'im still proved to be a very dangerous opponent, is a testament to his command of the Force.
Just in POD, Darth Bane seems to match or exceed Count Dooku in his understanding of the Force.
Originally posted by -kV-
2.) LOL, way to completely twist the situation to fit your own agenda. Kas’im hardly overwhelmed him – it says directly that Bane was “balanced precariously” and on the edge of a staircase. Any normal Force Push would have been just as effective.
Then this further favors my position about Darth Bane's command of the Force.
Originally posted by -kV-
3.) Seriously, if Kenobi applied the same degree off TK as he did against Grievous, Bane wouldn’t have even had time to “cocoon himself in the Force” before breaking his neck.
Originally posted by -kV-
? You’re basically saying, “Anakin was a better lightsaber duelist than Drallig.” Lightsaber combat involves using the Force as conduit between wielder and weapon.
Both were master swordsmen. However, one had higher command of the Force and this made the difference.
Hint for you: precognitive abilities
Originally posted by -kV-
And once again, you’re not properly answering my last post. I was showing how Bane’s subjective perception of Kas’im doesn’t reveal the level of “mastery” that the Twi’lek reached in each form. All Bane says is that Kas’im was the “greatest” in a time where there were hardly any powerhouses, and was a “perfect weapon” that was incidentally getting owned by Bane until the secret form was revealed.
Kas'im lunged in again, and the room was filled with the hiss and hum of lightsabers striking each other half a dozen times in the space of two heartbeats. Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek's unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense.
Then he went on the attack. In the past he had always been afraid to surrender his will to the raw emotions that fueled the dark side. Now he had no such limitations; for the first time he was calling on his full potential.
He drove Kas'im back with furious slashes, forcing his old mentor into backpedaling retreat across the floor of the chamber. Kas'im flipped back and out through the door into the hall beyond, but Bane was relentless in his pursuit, leaping forward and coming within a centimeter of landing a crippling blow to the Twilek's leg. (Darth Bane: Path of Destruction)
You see why command of the Force makes difference?
This also reminds me of a quote from Darth Nyriss:
"The dark side draws on the most powerful emotions: anger, hatred, fear. We are taught to use our emotions to unlock our true potential and unleash the Force against our enemies."
Originally posted by -kV-
Cin Drallig was Battlemaster of an era that George Lucas himself stated to be the “Golden Age” for lightsaber combat, and also “mastered” all seven forms. Yet, Vader demolished Drallig.
Ever wondered that why the same Vader failed to subdue or kill Shaak Ti during the same raid?
The label of blademaster logically suggests that Cin Dralling's martial skills were significant. However, his command of the Force would not have been as good as that of Vader's when the two met with lethal intentions.
Originally posted by -kV-
Likewise, Bane’s in-universe characterization of Kas’im as a master of lightsaber combat doesn’t at all mean that Kas’im has the ability to contend with Kenobi.
Understand?
And Kas'im's skills are admired by others as well and not just Bane.
Just prior to confrontation with Bane, Kas'im killed an adult Rancor by using his lightsaber only. He isn't a sneeze.
Originally posted by -kV-
You still aren’t answering the actual post. Dooku was the master of Makashi, and he was capable of outsparring Windu. Yet, Dooku had to rely on the Force to get rid of Kenobi because the latter’s bladework was too good.
If Count Dooku could afford to dispatch Obi-Wan with his Force powers; why should he have chosen more difficult path? His strategy makes sense to me.
Originally posted by -kV-
What? Well obviously, Sidious is a better lightsaber duelist than Kenobi.
Originally posted by -kV-
Youtube the fight if you want.
Originally posted by -kV-
I already explained how that quote isn’t reliable.
Novels are 'in-universe perspective' based sources. By your logic, novel is an unreliable medium.
Originally posted by -kV-
Which speaks badly for Kas’im. Even though he was the “perfect weapon” who spent decades honing his skills and perfecting his moves, he gets owned by Bane, who was at that time by no means spectacular.