He didn't overpower him in a direct contest of reality warping power but he did kidnap him faster than he could react to or do anything about which is pretty ridiculous in the first place. Just to reach the 5th dimension which is outside DC's normal space/time continuum and catch him unawares and take him so fast he couldn't defend himself is the feat. And I would say the same thing if someone captured a character far below Mxy's scale like say a Superman or Silver Surfer under the exact same circumstances.
If Norrin or Clark were just traveling along and some character ripped through the fabric of their dimension and snatched them up faster than they could react and imprisoned them in some depowering device (kryptonite, power cosmic dampener, etc...) then during the course of the story their powers were restored and they escaped, it wouldn't take away from them being kidnapped (without weakness exploitation) earlier in the story where they were strong armed grabbed. That's the way I see it Mindset.
Last edited by Sensui on Oct 24th, 2014 at 08:36 AM
Unless he was going off an old Earth prime story, where they establish anyone from Earth Prime is basically a god in the comic universe.
Some writer beat the JSA in it.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Are you insane? Superboy landed a few hits on him and got his hand crushed, that's not whopping ass, that's getting owned. Especially since Prime tanked an explosion that killed Superboy.
We clearly see him throwing punches while spinning, the Flashes failed to react. This is a fact. It's also a fact that one of them had to absorb the entire damn speed force just to arrive back on Earth a few seconds before Prime. His speed is insane, and Hulk has no answer to it.
Sun God is featless aside from the buttrape he delivered to Hulk. Black Adam is comparable to Hulk (not WBH to be clear) and Prime has laughed of his attacks. His tanked the Anti-Monitor's core which has atomized Guardians. His heat vision has cut through Superman like a knife through butter and it will have an effect in WBH. Prime>Hulk. Deal with it.
We see a growing explosion that's hundreds of times bigger than galaxies, that's proof right there. I know you need everything spelled out, but use your eyes and brain for once. Also, where are those scans for Thor's lightning bfring elites?
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
You are conflating two arguments. My argument for WBH having superior durability to Prime is based on consistency. I didnt claim that enduring the HOTM collission is superior to Prime surviving Monarch's Universal explosion. The argument is however that WBH enduring the collission unscathed accurately represents his durability level even when all of his appearances are taken into account and is therefore by defeault his consistent level (Thats the advantage of not having nearly as many appearances).
ON the other hand, Prime surviving universal destruction certainly does not. Hence when the entirety of their respective histories are taken into account (as it is per forum rules) WBH's durability is superior. The argument for Primes superiority relies on cherry picking his highest feat to the exclusion of all else. The former thus forms a much stronger argument than the latter
IN response to this you brought up Monarch and used him as an example of someone who had durability similar or even superior to WBH but who Prime ripped open. Based on this you suggested that Prime would rip open WBH. The problem however is that you have not given sufficient warrant for believing that the durability of Monarch's armour is superior to that of WBH. I then brought up the collission again to serve as an argumentative defeater of the claim that Monarch had superior durability as nothing you have shown comes anywhere close to provin that. As a result so the entire thought process of Prime ripping Hulk apart like he did Monarch, is summarily undermined.
You didnt address it at all as your argument instead pivoted back to a discussion on Primes high showings in stead of establiishing the veracity of your claim that Monarch had superior durability.
Yes WBH's highest durability showing does not exceed Prime's highest but that has nothing to do with my argument as I have never claimed it did. The key factor here is that WBH does not possess numerous durabillity showings that flat out contradict that highest outlier showing. Peak WBH's feat of enduring the collission in HOTM is his consistent durability by default and not some high outlier as it is in the case of Prime.
Herein lies the core premise of your argument that Prime rips WBH open. The problem is that the exampes you give above and have displayed do not provide sufficient warrant for believing that Monarchs armour is more durable. the attacks that you showed him enduring while impressive are orders of magnititude below what Hulk took unscathed. Those attacks that you showed Monarch tanking would be unable to replicate or match the force outputted in the shockwave..let alone the exponentially greater (and im talking several several order of magnitude) force contained at the epicentre. The shockwave itself, which I will reiterate is exponentially less efficacious than the force at the epicentre, disintegrated two low herald class 100s in Wendigo and Bi Beast, but then also an at least high herald level being in Armcheddon (who in the past has defeated Merged Hulk and Silver Surfer at the same time, and who earlier within HOTM took multiple blows from a holding back WBH that was powerful enough to one punch kill Wendigo and Bi Beast amped x1000 times). Then there is the disintegration foom at 17 hercs, and the entirety of the Mindless ones portrayed at a level where they were in conjunction too powerful for even Umar (a skyfather level Hell Lord in her own realm) to put down. The force contained in the shockwave of that collission did all of that simultaneously which makes the total force it contained even more impressive as it was acting on a huge amount of beings (when you take the mindless ones into account) meaning that the force per unit mass that acted on each inividual character would have been tremendously diluted. None of the attacks that you showed Monarch tanking came even close to rivalling such an output of force.....and yet at the epicentre of the collission Hulk tanked a level of force several orders of magnitude greater than the aforementioned. Its not even close.
This is not to say that Monarch tanking attacks from multiple herald level characters isnt impressive but there is a gargantuan difference in scale that you are not yet cognizant of.
The argument for Prime ripping WBH apart on the basis of what he did to Monarch's armour does not have a leg to stand on as you have provided no warrant whatsoever for believing that those specific attacks that Monarch's armour endured are even comparable in terms of force output let alone superior to that which WBH took in his collission.
The points do not go out the window at all and in attempting to refute them you have conflated the arguments and unfortunately engaged in strawman argumentation.
The power of Monarchs explosion exceeds that of the collission and Prime did survive it which is to his credit an amazing feat. It is however an extreme outlier for Prime and contradicted by numerous other feats and does not at all represent a consistent level as is the case with WBH' collission feat. Since consistent portrayal is what we go by on the forum, WBH's feat is thus more pertinent, provides greater argumentative warrant, and worthy of greater consideration.
Then also, you have not at all demonstrated the superior durability of the armour or come close to it and so your attempt to get around the above issues by referencing Prime ripping open Monarch does not even get off the ground.
The arguments that you have brought up for Prime being stronger also fall short as they either enitrely insufficient (tearing open Monarch's armour), rely on feats that cannot quantifiably be compared (esoteric unquantifiable feats) or involve the use of multiple successive feats ("shifiting the universe"). Moving multiple planets serves as a demonstration of Prime's longevity and stamina, but the strength used in each feat does not stack on top of itself and hence "shifting the center of the universe" cannot be cumulatively applied as some kind of joint strength feat.
Using speed, would have ensured that Monarch was unable to hit him, thereby preventing him from taking any damage and possibly using up the amp. He also would have been able to land numerous blows on Monarch without taking any in response possibly leading to some kind of ko or incapacitation.
__________________
All thanks goes to starlock.
"Beware trolls, know me and know fear"
Does Hulk have a higher average based on less showings, no question but you should not ignore Prime's superior durability showings against Monarch. It definitely impacts the outcome of the fight if one character has an overall superior durability feat than the other despite having inconsistent showings. Do you think the lesser showings automatically invalidate the higher one and the higher showing can be summarily dismissed?
Would this apply to all characters with similar durability showings where they are harmed by herald level force but then turn around in typical comic book fashion and survive power far beyond the herald tier?
I not cherry picking, just making sure it is taken into account with his entire history. Average durability is WBH's advantage but overall superior durability is Prime who has shown the greatest resistance against Universal destruction while Hulk has not. Both statements can be true and both can be considered.
Here's the problem, I say Monarch has an edge on durability based on his surviving not only multiple heralds attacking him but also an AMPED Superboy Prime in "I kill you to death Mode" failing to put a scratch in him as well. You feel that Hulk's durability is greater meaning that the Hulk's skin could endure an attack from an AMPED Superboy Prime without suffering a scratch. If this is the case I don't understand why Hulk's healing factor is even being brought up, earlier in the discussion, when you've basically made the Hulk to be INDESTRUCTIBLE.
Monarch has endured multiple herald and above herald power (Christopher Kent, Amped Superman Prime) directed against his armor without a problem. The only time its been damaged is by a pissed off Prime. I'd say that is a pretty good list of resistance if the only thing that has breached a character's durability is crazy Superboy Prime level strength.
But you feel the Hulk's durability is greater meaning that an Amped Prime would attack him and do even worse than he did against Monarch. The Hulk per your argument needs no Healing Factor as he won't take any damage, not a scratch, since he has superior durability than Monarch correct?
Again I don't dismiss high end feats if they don't suit my argument. I take them all into account from wrecking dimensions to higher character averages when I make character vs character assessments. Prime's overall superior durability at the highest portrayal I factor into the fight in allowing Prime the benefit of the doubt that he can survive WBH level force directed against his body since he's survived worse. On the other end Hulk's superior average means that Prime will have to work harder to injure Hulk than vice versa. That's my take away from taking both of their best durability showings into account not dismissing one because I don't like the fact one character has higher showing than the other one despite bleeding from lesser heralds attacking him.
Let me cut you off right here. Monarch endured above average beings like Christopher Kent and Amped Superman Prime in an extremely pissed off state. His armor was so durable he survived Prime's assault until his stolen Guardian Amp wore off.
How durable do you have to be to literally tank an Amped Superman Prime who is going for the kill without suffering any damage (he got knocked around but that's it)? The same guy that slapped a Monitor around and physically ripped his way into the 5th dimension and kidnapped Mxy.
I think it is superior because I don't see anyone there in the dark dimension being more powerful than an AMPED Prime.
Christopher Kent dwarfed two Superman (one of which was Red Son a character some people argue is superior to the mainstream Superman) to such a degree that holding back the majority of his power in physical form alone he literally tied their heat vision together like a kid playing with shoe strings.
Transforming into a higher energy state he burned himself out without causing Monarch a scratch.
There is NO STRAWMAN going on here. You're points have been taken in Naija Boy and tossed out the window because the Monarch fight literally makes everything Hulk accomplished in the dark dimension a MOOT point imo.
The output of force between Hulks is below Monarch's explosion which Prime survived meaning that the force Hulk is able to bring to bare in this fight is NOT more than what Prime can deal with.
The durability of Hulk I think is below Monarch (based on him tanking herald and TRANS++ attacks without being damaged) and only being compromised by a character whose strength feats are LITERALLY reality altering at times.
I go by consistency as well which is why WBH has superior durability on average meaning it will be harder for Prime to permanently injure him than vice versa BUT I also take into account Prime's superior durability at the highest levels, meaning he can endure what Hulk can dish out and when combined with the kid's crazy strength and other abilities chalks up a win for Prime in my eyes.
It does because his armor endured TRANS level characters + including an AMPED Prime attacking him long enough that the amp wore off before Prime was eventually successful in breaking it open. Your argument is the Hulk is indestructible if his skin is superior in durability to Monarch's armor. I think my position is a much more sound stance.
Moving planets to shift an entire Universe's dimensional axis is a feat that involves massive strength, not just stamina and longevity. Think about it, the entire 3 dimensional reality (planets, stars, galaxies, etc...) was shifted away from the planet Oa.
Why is it ridiculous Naija Boy that a character that easily and without a decrease in power shifts a Universe's axis with physical strength could possibly be considered stronger than the Hulk? Is this such a preposterous stance that taking this feat into account with the rest of his esoteric feats and character comparisons with legions of JSA, Teen Titans, JLA, three legions, etc... that the character's strength could possibly exceed the Hulk's?
Numerous blows that would, if he reached the necessary level of anger and force, rend open his armor and destroy the entire Universe. I don't see his speed helping him with Monarch at all unless he did a battlefield removal, taking him outside the Universe like to the 5th dimension. And when has Monarch been rendered unconscious?
Last edited by Sensui on Oct 24th, 2014 at 05:48 PM
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
Im not ignoring primes singular superior showing. I am simply am claiming that Hulk has a a higher consistent level and hence would be more durable within a forum fight as per the rules. The lesser showings dont invalidate the higher ones nor vice versa, but they need to be used in tandem.....which is exactly what Im doing and why I still acknowledge that Prime is still obviously an extremely durable character that will be hard to put down. You are the one who is attempting to exclusively utilize Prime's highest showing to posit durability superior to WBH. The argument is simply not sound.
The method that I am using to determine durability does apply to all characters with similar durability showings and it is why it is the prescribed method on the forum. It is the reason why even top tier characters like Superman, Thor, Surfer, Hyperion etc, despite having durability showings comparable or even in excess of what WBH and Prime tanked, are not exclusively judged on the basis of those singular instances.
It is cherry picking, because in determining a characters durability, we are determining a set level at whch they will operate at mid fight. In order to determine that level, we do not rely exclusively on highest outlier feats but the toality of their history. That is what I am doing and in taking all of that into account (both highs and lows) WBH is more durable. You cannot claim a level for Prime's durability by relying on a singular feat that is an outlier and has been contradicted by numerous others, and then simultaneously claim that you are taken his entire history into account. The only claim that you can reasonably make is that Prime has a high end feat that exceeds WBH's. On the other hand so do, characters like Hyperion, Thor, and Silver Surfer. That doesnt mean that we would consider them as overall more durable or to be more durable in a forum battle and it doesnt mean so for Prime either.
Monarch took some attacks from SBP with the guardian amp true. However, he was later literally ripped open by an even weaker SBP within the same fight, which implies that while SBP's attacks may not have been showing visible damage to the suit material (and really that is more a matter of artistic illustration than anything else) they were undermining the overall integrity of the armour. Me believing that Hulks durability is greater does not mean I think Hulk is indestructible....that is another strawman and quite frankly silly.
It merely necessiates that I think Hulk can take a few attacks (just as many as Monarch took which was what 6-8?) from that version Prme without suffering grievous internal injury damage or being severely hurt or incapacitated. That in of itself is based on my belief that WBH is himself stronger than Prime and that the collission within HOTM was a superior output of force to even the attacks that Prime dished out to Monarch.
Your chosen phrase of "not suffering a scratch" is terribly misleading as within comics its not like metallic armour/skin "scratching" is the only way that damage is communicated. We dont solely asses the efficacy of attacks or levels of damage done to characters with metallic skin/and armour such as the Silver Surfer or Iron Man, strictly by the visible or superficial damage illustrated on said armour. That would be ridiculous and epitomizes the problem with your attempt to portray Prime's attacks as totally ineffective at a higher power level (without a scratch as you put it)......and yet somehow become greatly more potent despite him suddenly being weaker at the time he launched the subsequent attacks. The entire line of thought is specious
The misrepresentation of my argument here is farcical. I believe that Hulks durability is greater based off the HOTM feat and as a result, Hulk would be able to take several attacks from that version of Prime without being significantly damaged though he would be affected. That does not imply that I think that Hulk could infinitely take attacks from Prime without taking any damage...or is indestructable as you put it. Such a characterization is simply nonsensical. Hulks healing factor will thus come in handy in this type of prolonged fight, as despite being able to take a certain amount of attacks to good effect, he will certainly be affected in the long term and his healing factor will serve to quickly and continuously return him to 100% during the course of the battle
The basis for this distortion of my argument is your belief that Monarch's armor was completely unaffected by Prime's more powerful guardian amped attacks despite being subsequently breached by a weaker Prime...and rests merely on a lack of "scratches" and other types of superficial damage representation that are not always shown within comics. The warrant for it is thus very weak.
The attacks that Monarch tanked unscathed are not equal in terms of force outputted to that outputted in the HOTM feat (and that includes Primes attacks on Monarch). Your responses show that you have been entirely unable to grasp the level of force involved.
The second problem with your position is that you are in the same vein speciously claiming that Prime's stronger attacks had no effect at all on Monarch when his weaker attacks were capable of rupturing the armor,a proposition that is inherently illogical and inconsistent, all due to the absence of visible superficial damage which tends within comics to be immensely variable. The argument is not sound at all.
__________________
All thanks goes to starlock.
"Beware trolls, know me and know fear"
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
There have been several strawmen arguments. Your inability or unwillingness to grasp the type of forces involved within the WBH feat has caused you to establish a caricature of my argument as I have shown above. The Monarch fight does not make the Hulk fight moot at all as your reasoning process is all over the place.
You have not shown Monarch's durability to be superior to Hulks at all. Your attempts to do so were with arguments that were literally self refuting.
Moving Planets does involve tremendous strength, but you cannot cumulatively stack the strength required in an attempt to say it required more strength than HOTM. When you start bringing up multiple iterations of a feat, we are talking about longevity and performance stamina not some kind of cumulative strength. I dont know how this isnt clear.
Its not ridiculous to think a characters strengt could exceed Hulks, what is borderline ridiculous, are many of the arguments you have chosen to use to support your position.
Monarch never having been koed doesnt mean he cant and thinking so would be a no limits fallacy...Furthermore, the main reason I brought up Prime not using speed in that fight was to underscore the general point that Prime even when serious, has often not fought at speeds beyond Hulks ability to engage. There are many other examples of this as well (Ion, superboy etc.)
__________________
All thanks goes to starlock.
"Beware trolls, know me and know fear"
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
I think I need to hone in on the problem with your use of the Monarch feat as the core of your argument so that it doesnt get lost in the cross fire.It is blatantly question begging and circular.
Earlier, You mentioned Prime destroying Monarchs armour as being superior to Hulks dark dimension feat and therefore as evidence of Prime's superior strength as seen below:
I however mentioned that this feat was not really comparable strength wise and in an attempt to refute it you brought up several instances demonstrating the durability of Monarchs armour.........with your biggest point being how Monarch survived hits from an amped Prime "without a scratch (a point which I have also addressed), thus showing how durable it was:
The fallacious reasoning here is thus clear:
In attempting to show Prime's superior strength, you referenced him ripping open Monarch's extremely durable armour. Subsequently, in attempting to show the durability of Monarch's armour you referenced him.....resisting Prime's immense strength. Its circular as your conclusion is already assumed and you essentially use it to justify itself. The argument therefore falls apart under any serious scrutiny.
Effectively, you are claiming A is true because of B. But when asked to justify B....you are claiming B is true because of A. This kind of argumentation while attractive on the surface is fallacious and not viable at all.
__________________
All thanks goes to starlock.
"Beware trolls, know me and know fear"
Last edited by Naija boy on Oct 24th, 2014 at 10:18 PM
Of course the argument is sound, I'm taking into account both of their durability feats and the higher overall feat between both of them means that Prime can take the most punishment even if Hulk has a better average since he has no low showings.
It's quite simple.
It isn't cherry picking to acknowledge the durability Prime showed against Anti-Matter, Monarch, the Merger of Earths, etc... which help tell us that while it is possible for a herald level character to draw blood, the maximum amount of punishment Prime can endure is vastly beyond herald level.
And mentioning Surfer, Hyperion, etc... is another NON-STARTER because they don't have the feats of dominating multiple top tier heroes like Prime nor the amount of showings performing above herald feats like he did in what, approximately 50 comic appearances.
It's all a matter of artistic illustration complementing the narration and in the illustration Monarch was undamaged by an AMPED Primes attacks. The Narration and dialogue from Monarch did not HINT AT or IMPLY his armor was compromised in anyway. Speculating about his armor's structural integrity is your own interpretation of things found in the comic.
Yes Prime tore him open later in an incredible effort of strength when his previous attacks were unsuccessful.
It isn't a strawman at all. It is the logical outcome of your argument Naija Boy.
If you feel the Hulk is superior in durability to Monarch that means an AMPED Superboy Prime will do WORSE against Hulk then he did against Monarch. He won't be able to put a scratch in his hide and his chances of winning the fight are essentially non-existent.
There is no need for a healing factor, there is no need to AGREE with ME that Prime using his speed can win the fight because HE CAN'T overcome his superior durability that an AMPED Prime struggled to even put a scratch in and required a super angry effort from Prime to rip open (which you say he can't accomplish on Hulk)
Therefore LOGICALLY the Hulk in this battle is essentially Indestructible to Prime's strength and if you felt that way why didn't you make this clear from the very beginning of your argument?
If he is MORE durable than Monarch he won't be remotely hurt or endanger of being incapacitated because Monarch took the attacks without suffering any damage. And these attacks from Prime were so serious the Guardian Amp he possessed WORE OFF during the course of this assault on Monarch.
Now who is pulling a strawman now? Where did I say that scratching is the only way DAMAGE is communicated in a comic book? Where Naija?
The fact is Monarch is a character in a metal suit. This suit of armor is NOT DAMAGED by any VISIBLE artistic illustration nor does NARRATION confirm any such compromise in the suit's structural integrity. Monarch is not worried about the attacks he is enduring or giving a sign that his suit is about to crack open.
Your argument is especially BAD here because it sets up conjecture of when Monarch's armor was undergoing some structural deficiencies due to Prime's attacks. Why not ASSUME his armor was already compromised earlier in countdown vs Christopher Kent or against the 52 Captain Atoms or etc.... It's just as plausible right that his armor was already weakened before he even fought Prime.
Bad debating here Naija Boy.
It won't come in handy in this "long" fight.
You think Hulk is Stronger than Prime.
You think Hulk is MORE durable than Monarch who endured an AMPED Prime's assault that wore out the Amp without damage.
How does a HEALING Factor come into play when Prime cannot come close to even injuring this Hulk? Nor survive the incoming strength of Hulk attacking him.
This fight doesn't last long in the slightest based on your argument Naija Boy.
It's based on what is SHOWN in the comic. I don't need to speculate a position of his armor being compromised before Prime ripped it open which is not based on NARRATION or any kind of ARTISTIC example supporting such a BAD ASSERTION.
Bad debating Naija Boy.
The argument is completely sound and you don't like it. Bringing up the history of comics and how character damage is artistically displayed is a red herring. Stop making up speculation to describe what is clearly shown on the page.
Monarch's armor during the entire event of countdown is only breached once by Prime. There is no narration, no art, that even hints his armor is about to be ruptured. Your speculation is not backed up in any aspect whatsoever.
There is no caricature of your argument being displayed. Your argument is very simple.
Very.
If the Hulk is more durable than Monarch that means that Prime even AMPED is going to fail to do anything to the green behemoth.
If Hulk is stronger than Prime and Prime isn't being given the benefit of what you consider to be a high outliner in terms of durability, then Prime cannot survive the incoming.
I'm confused in how your arguing for a Healing factor the Hulk doesn't need in this battle and agreeing with me earlier that Prime using his speed could win.
All the other outputted and force multipliers and unit speak means absolutely nothing here Naija. It simply comes down to you feeling Hulk is too durable to be harmed correct? And too strong for Prime to endure?
Now how you arrived at this conclusion I've picked apart and thrown out the window because its based on a collision and eradication of characters in the dark dimension which only works if you ignore Prime surviving GREATER against a foe in Monarch more powerful than Hulk.
You mean beside pointing out that Monarch endured an AMPED Prime trying to kill him along with another trans character in Christopher Kent plus all the other herald attacks that failed to crack his armor or even put a dent in it?
Oh I forgot you defended your position by bringing up the incredible faulty counterargument that Monarch's armor was already structurally compromised and ready to go despite not being stated in narration, dialogue, or displayed artistically.
That sum up your counter position that's devoid of any on panel evidence?
There isn't a pause and stop as far as I know with Prime moving worlds FTL speeds across the Universe, eventually shifting the axis of the entire Universe. You accuse me of not comprehending the feats in the dark dimension, which I do and there below Prime and Monarch, but I don't think you understand the strength displayed by Prime to accomplish such a task, or work over time. I think the energy required to move planets at FTL and shift the Universe is far greater over time, than the energy displayed in the brief seconds of the Hulks collision.
We don't know what it will take to knock out Monarch because he is sentient energy essentially contained within an armored shell. That's what I meant by rendering him traditionally unconscious which Prime, being a villain, went all out on him and failed to damage him and lost his amp in the process.
And his speed should make no difference to you as it undermines your assertion of the Hulk's durability being significantly greater than Monarch's rendering Prime's attacks at whatever the volume or rate of occurrence pointless following your argumentation.
The showing doesn't contradict the strength of Prime nor the durability of Monarch.
I used this example in conjunction with Monarch surviving multiple heralds and Christopher Kent in Countdown to present my overall deduction that the durability of his armor was superior to Hulk's skin. I brought in Prime specifically to show an example of the armor standing up to attacks from a character I consider to be more powerful than anyone in the Dark Dimension Hulk fought.
It is also a feat of Prime to rip open his armor when groups of heralds and more failed to do so.
Trying to point out a fallacious argument here is the equivalent of bringing up say circular reasoning between Doomsday and Superman.
You ask a poster to show Doomsday’s superior strength and they reference him killing Superman, overcoming his incredible durability. Then you ask them to show a great durability feat of Superman’s and they reference him tanking an ungodly beating from Doomsday.
You jump in, its circular reasoning! You're attempting to prove how strong Doomsday is by showing him killing Superman but at the same time show how durable Superman is referencing Doomsday's strength, who later killed him!
It's inadmissible your honor! Serious question here Naija Boy have you ever watched law and order or are a fan of courtroom dramas? Can you sound any more like a lawyer who is losing his client's case
Last edited by Sensui on Oct 25th, 2014 at 12:40 AM
Monarch's armor must be more durable than his face plate or and this is probably the case, its just comic book physics and logic.
So Monarch's face plate has been compromised earlier in countdown however there is no further narration or art that shows his suits failing structural integrity in the fight with Prime on Earth-51 before Prime breaches his armor.
For what its worth, Superman broke the original Monarch armor's helmet, but the rest of the suit proved indestructible to anything, going so far as mocking Guy Gardner and Superman for attempting to damage it.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
Youave have got to be kidding me. An argument where you admittedly use fallacious circular reasoning as the core of your point, and you call it sound?
Saying prime can take the most punishment between them is asserting that Prime is more durable and relying exclusively on one feat. And subsequently means that you are ignoring the instances where he has been portrayed as well below that feat. Having the higher overall feat between them, means that Prime in an isolated instance performed better. It does not translate on the forum to Prime having better durability as Prime's durability will represent his most typical portrayal level and not some high or low outlier. So while he wont be at the level where he can be koed by teen titans....he wont be at the level where it takes a Universe buster to take him out either. Thats principle we go by on this forum.....not the self-serving high feat cherry picking that you are so eagerly engaging in
It is cherry picking however to assert that Prime will be able to take more damage based on a singular outlier feat above WBH's consistent level as you have done above. Yes the damage Prime can take is vastly above herald level but that was never the point in question.
And no Surfer Hyperion etc and any other charcater in this context are totally valid analogies. Prime having dominated top tier heroes is absolutely irrelevant to whether we can rely exclusively on high feats to determine his set strength level. You dont get to go against a set forum principle of not high balling because "Prime dominated top tier heroes" . You can add non-sequitur reasoning to your long list fallacies.
This is really a a laughably poor thought process and bloody bad strawman. Believing WBH is superior in durability to Monarch means I believe he can take more attacks from Prime than Monarch did without being grievously hurt. It does not mean that I think he is indestructible and Prime will never be able to hurt him. That is a distortion born of your inability to reason properly.
Prime's blows eventually did harm Monarch and he was able to cause significant damage as the fight wore on. The fight between WBH and Prime will be a long one. Even if his blows are relatively ineffectual initial as the fight goes on, wear will set in and he will begin to become more significantly damaged by them. Thats where the HF is usefull. Just because a character can tank, a set of attacks does not mean that he can take the same attacks infinitely. :
That is a no limits fallacy and hence cannot possibly be the logical conclusion of my argument.....because it is itself NOT logical and does not at all follow from the premises. Ill break it down so its clear to even the most simple minded.
Heres you distorted fallacy ridden charcaterization:
Premise 1- Superboy Prime was unable to significantly hurt or incapacitate Monarch initially, though he eventually did
Premise 2- Hulk is more durable than Monarch
Conclusion- Therefore Hulk is indestructible to Superboy Prime
This is some text book faulty reasoning and its freaking embarassing that I have to hold your hand through it.The conclusion does not follow from the initial propositions at all and it is an obvious strawman. The proper argument is
Premise 1. Superboy Prime was unable to significantly hurt or incapacitate Monarch initially, though he eventually did
Premise 2- Hulk is More durable than Monarch
Conclusion- Therefore it will be harder for Superboy Prime to significantly Hurt or incapacitate Hulk than it was for him to do so to Monarch
It being harder says nothing about it being impossible or Hulk being indestructible. Even Monarch who you believe was completely unaffected by SBP's initial attacks was summarily breached and torn apart later in the fight. Hence even that fight shows that just because you resist attacks for a specified period doesnt mean you can do so infinitely.
Please stop using the word "logical", your reasoning porcess is an anathema to everything it represents..
Its not a strawman at all. It was pointing out the implication of solely using artistic illustration of "scratching" to determine damage...which IS what you were doing in the posts i quoted.
Monarch is a character in a metal suit indeed and hence we need more than mere scratching to determine whether he is being hurt or affected by attacks or not. We get narrative support for the belief that Monarch is being affected by Prime's attack as not only do we see him getting knocked for a loop, we see him exclaiming the typical comic "AARH!!" when hit and even having to try to block Primes heat vision. That is not indicative of no selling an attack, and points to Prime's attacks not being as ineffectual as you would like them to be (while simulteneously arguing that they were super effectual smh). It follows that as Prime continues to attack Monarch, he will eventually break through....and he did.
Conversely in the previous instances with the other herald level characters that you showed we see Monarch standing his ground, unmoved and unperturbed by their attacks. He certainly isnt exclaiming in pain or having to block attacks for instance and that clearly indicates that their attacks did not. Hence there is a clear difference and you trying to portray the former in the same vein as the latter is nonsensical.
Whats even worse is that this point is of only tangential importance, as the reasoning process behind your use of Monarch is blatant question begging and fallacious.
Dude honest question, before you wikid the definition of circular reasoning had you ever even heard of critical thinking....ughh
There is no red herring. We see Monarch exclaiming in pain and even trying to block Prime's attack clearly displayed that does not suggest he was unaffected by it.
Furthermore Im not unsurprised that you dont see the self-refuting nature of claiming.... a stronger Prime's all out attacks had apparently no effect but then simultaneously trying to use a weaker Prime having a big effect as some kind of super strength feat for Prime........ due to.....a stronger Prime having apparently no effect.
Thats almost as bad as your....."Prime is stronger because he destroyed Monarch who is so durable because he tanked Prime" construction.
Maybe those arguments sound in your bizzaro world of the logically impaired.....but not in the world of proper reason kiddo.. not at all
__________________
All thanks goes to starlock.
"Beware trolls, know me and know fear"
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
Honest question dude, Prior to wikiing the definition of circular reasoning had you heard of critical thinking at all? lol even in the faulty construction of my argument you have presente the conclusions do not follow from the premises.
Hulk being more durable than Monarch doesnt mean that Prime is going to be unable to harm him infinitely...(Prime WAS able to rip Monarch open) It means that Prime will have a harder time harming him than he did Monarch. This stuff is b-a-s-i-c
Also its hilarious that you are clinging to the fact that Prime was "AMPED" against Monarch when you believe by your own admission, that Primes attacks after his "AMP" wore off were stronger and much more effectual. Putting aside the blatantly circular and thus flawed nature of the whole line of thought for a moment, in you warped view Monarch tanking Primes amped attacks should not be more impressive as Prime's unamped attacks were far more effective afterall.
Hulk being stronger than Prime, does not imply that he will easily put him down as I have even asserted that when taking everything in account, Prime is still very durable...even if not as durable as WBH based on consistent levels.
lol, the reason you are confused is because you have reasoning and comprehension deficiencies. Dont put that on me.
With your poor circular logic you havent picked apart anything...you have shown why they need to start teaching you kids critical thinking from grade school.
Yes I mean besides your the question begging mess that is your Monarch argument:
Premise 1:Prime is stronger than Hulk because he damaged Monarch
Premise 2:This is impressive because Monarch is more durable than Hulk since took hits from Prime
Conclusion: Therefore Prime is stronger than Hulk
Your justification after is essentially: But oh this is how people argue for Superman and Doomsday afterall, so lets embrace fallacy throw out foundational principles of logic and reasoning.
. This is funny even by KMC standards.
: See below
Ughh....Again Hulk having greater durability is not a sufficient condition for Prime's attacks to have no effect whatsoever "regardless of the volume or rate of occurrence". That is entirely illogical and is you projecting your fallacy ridden thinking on to me. Keep that ish to yourself
__________________
All thanks goes to starlock.
"Beware trolls, know me and know fear"
Gender: Male Location: Ontario
but still reppin naija
Your deduction is circular and by definition unsound just as in the case of the analogy you used.
If a poster tries to demonstrate Doomsday's strength by showing him killing Superman, and then gets asked to justify why killing Doomsday is impressive and attempts to do so by referencing how he took hits from Superman's tremendous strength.....The reasoning is fallacious and the argument is unsound.
You are attempting to defend your own circular reasoning by referencing another case of circular reasoning.....my goodness .
lol, anyhow, this is my last post in response to this. Ive had my fill of this horribly tedious discussion where the rules of logic get wantonly disregarded and shouts of "Wikipedia" are seen as a valid rebuttals. I have no desire to spend my time spoon feeding kids the basic tenets of critical thinking. Your illiteracy is your problem not mine/
Peace.
__________________
All thanks goes to starlock.
"Beware trolls, know me and know fear"
Of course it is sound as it doesn't just compare Monarch's durability to Prime's strength, it is used in conjunction with everything else Monarch was seen to endure during Countdown.
You focus just on the Monarch vs Prime part of my argument to try and discredit my entire reasoning which is consider every fight Monarch had in Countdown which included multiple heralds, trans tier beings like Christopher Kent and one AMPED Superman Prime which you want to ignore by excluding this battle on the basis of circular reasoning, his armor was structurally compromised, its an outlier,
etc... whatever excuse you can mentally justify to ignore the FACT that PRIME's BEST DURABILTY FEATS trump the Hulk collision in the Dark Dimension.
Let me cut you off right here. It does translate into Prime being that durable against Universe destroying force. While he can injured by heralds (and really most beings in comics at one time or another from Galactus on down have been affected) Prime can also endure far greater force than just herald level output or he would've been defeated by such forces. His durability while inconsistently portrayed giving Hulk the advantage in average portrayals is still CONSISTENTLY portrayed as too tough for heralds to put down and can stand against above herald force.
From Monarch explosion, to multiple Guardians blasting him at once, to Alexander Luthor's machine merging Earths into one, Sodom Yat with Ion Power, the Anti-Matter of the Anti-Monitor, do I need to keep going Naija Boy? His durability against greater than Herald level force is CONSISTENTLY portrayed as something he can handle without serious injury! You have ignored this from the very beginning and will not take this into account, it's just Heralds hurt him sometimes so the Hulk will demolish him with outputted unit per square inch nonsense.
IT'S NOT A SINGULAR FEAT. It is against multiple Guardians, Anti-Monitor's Anti-Matter, etc... not just Monarch. Prime, like say a Thanos is consistently shown to be able to endure skyfather level plus attacks against his body. He is hurt by heralds but NOT to the point that entire groups of them can put him down except in the one low showing of his career when he was beat by the Teen Titans.
Of course it's relevant as that's his AVERAGE showing. Prime's average showing is dominating multiple teams and top tier heroes simultaneously. Surfer and Hyperion aren't VALID ANALOGIES to Superboy Prime's consistent domination of groups and teams of top tier characters in the slightest and just another distraction by you in an argument you've failed to articulately address my points without heading to Wikipedia and finding every logical fallacy you can site in an attempt to make your BAD argument smarter than it really is.
Which means Prime can't damage him in the slightest since according to you he can't rip him open like he did Monarch's armor. So NO, the logical conclusion to your argument is that Prime can't put a dent in your indestructible Hulk since he is significantly more durable than Monarch's armor.
No his blows did not physically damage Monarch's armor at all even when he was AMPED. He wasn't able to damage his armor until he lost it and went full EMO BRAT on Monarch and ripped it open. Before that moment he had attacked him in "I kill you to death" mode and lost his amp as Monarch endured every attack without a Breach or rupture of his armor which the NARRATION, DIALOGUE, or ART confirms. You are now making up stuff that did not happen in the comic.
That is the logical outcome of your position. You claim that Hulk cannot be ripped open by Prime and that he is significantly more durable than Monarch's armor. That means Prime cannot overcome Hulk's durability in your eyes. He needs to massive healing factor because he won't be getting hurt and since in your opinion he's stronger and Prime's Universal tanking isn't aloud guess what happens Naija? How the heck do you even consider this a long fight is crazy since you also argue that Prime won't use his super speed based on not using it the majority of the time which implies an up close slugfest.
And yet you still have the gall to talk out of both sides of your mouth and claim, this is a long fight, Prime can injure Hulk, please! Not on the argumentation you've made in this thread.
I don't believe, his suit was show to be undamaged. And this part I have to point out does your argument no favors since you insist that Prime can't tear Hulk open like Monarch because Hulk is much more durable. So again, how does he injure Hulk? Why is this a long fight? You say no super speed, no Universe tanking durability (conveniently ignoring all the other above top tier stuff he tanked as well), he isn't stronger than Hulk, yet this is a close fight? It's a long fight? Where in your argumentation would one believe this is possible when your stance is COMPLETELY the opposite?
Him yelling AARH! is NOT a BREACH of HIS ARMOR but nice try. Based off this incredible deductive reasoning when ever the Surfer yells AARH! it means his skin is about break open. No, it just means he was hurt, not that his armor was about to fall apart at that moment.
When his armor is temporarily breached as is the case against the alternate GL Batman or Prime the art and dialogue both confirm the structural compromise of his armor. You're now trying to pass off the words AARH as confirmation his armor was about to break open, not that he was just momentarily hurt. Your stance is getting more warped by the post.
I'll be looking forward to which one you'll whip out on me next in an attempt to deflect attention away from the argument you've failed to convincingly back up in this thread.
It's comics, do I need to show multiple examples where characters couldn't put a dent in a character from before when they were stronger and yet at the end of the fight turn around and damage the character that was stomping them due to some Aunt May Mode, Lois is in Danger, I have to save the world storytelling device implemented to bring dramatic conflict? You do know this is a staple in fiction especially in the super hero genre?
This is interesting for you to bring up since your stance is that he can't rip Hulk open like he did Monarch and that Hulk is significantly more durable than Monarch. Remember all that force outputted in the epicenter of the collision between Hulks talk throughout this thread Naija Boy? You claimed what Monarch endued in the countdown arena and from Prime wasn't even comparable to the forces Hulk's skin endured in the dark dimension. That's your stance throughout this entire thread.
How does Prime hurt your version of Hulk? If he isn't stronger according to you, and he can't use his speed, his high end durability against Monarch isn't applicable due to you deciding its an outliner, how does Prime even last long enough to make this a "long fight"? Your Hulk is impossible for Prime to due much against or injure.
I think you really need to look up storytelling devices where the weakened hero accomplishes something he earlier couldn't despite being at full power for dramatic purposes like say an exhausted Superman killing Doomsday where he earlier stuff did nothing or hell exhausted Goku and Vegeta overpowering Metal Coola despite supposedly being drained of energy. It happens all the time, you must be new to reading dramatic fiction.
According to you Hulk's stronger, more durable than Monarch, can't be ripped apart, Prime can't use his speed, and his best durability feat is tossed out the window. Your argumentation does not back up this assertion in the slightest.
I've addressed your argument as you've poorly and rhetorically presented it and pointed at the rather interesting flaws, selective reasoning that has lead you to claim Hulk is in for a long tough fight despite your overwhelming asserting he dominates strength and durability.
I like how you ignore all the characters from countdown that attacked Monarch including Christopher Kent which I pointed out and you completely ignored. Or the litany of feats Prime has performed against everyone from the Anti-Monitor, Ion Powered Sodom Yat, Superman, and legions of GL's, JSA, JLA, etc...which led me to saying hey, this guy could be stronger than the Hulk.
It's not just Superman and Doomsday, its Surfer and Morg, its Thor and Durok, Mangog and Thor, etc...
Its almost every character in the fictional medium we all enjoy called comics. Which are filled with literary devices where unlike the real world characters are neither logically consistent from issue to issue, hell panel to panel, in their displayed abilities, power relations to each other (you've got street levelers taking out top tiers), or even characterization at times.
Hence the terms PIS, CIS, etc... Trying to point this out as a logical fallacy is the classic case of diverting attention away from your argument which falls apart under close scrutiny and is not even internally consistent with the fight your trying to present.
Yes, your Hulk that has greater durability than a guy that stood up to an AMPED Prime's I kill you attacks and required a superhuman effort to overcome which you've made explicit won't work on Hulk because of his superior durability? Yeah, how does he injure that guy? You've argued it throughout the thread. Prime doesn't get to use his speed, no Universal durability because its an outliner, he isn't stronger than Hulk, etc....page after page Naija Boy. Yet, you constantly also say this is a LONG FIGHT, its a CLOSE fight, how?
You've stacked the deck completely in the Hulk's favor and yet when called on it you insist that the argument you put forth conveys no such thing. That is funny.
KMC Community Forums
Oct 24th, 2014 08:30 AM
. This is funny even by KMC standards.
. 
