Dooku vs. Sidious

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
An astute observation.

Anyway, in this entire thread, there were two or three people who seemed to say that Sidious could defeat Dooku, while there were legions of people who claimed Dooku can defeat Sidious. Even in force mastery, and basically everyone, even for the pro-Sidious guys ('cept for this Darth Somebody guy) said that Dooku would own Sidious in sabers. Can someone please, possibly who was there at the time, explain to me why so many people believed Dooku >>> Sidious in lightsabers?

btw do you know what I said in this thread, if anything, back in the 2005's?

Originally posted by darthsith19
People were Dooku fanboys. The logic was "Makashi is the dueling form. Dooku mastered Makashi, so he pwns all".

btw do you know what I said in this thread, if anything, back in the 2005's?

Nope. I don't. Were you also a part of the "Everyone and their moms can own Sidious" parade, or were you more objective/more like today? xD

Originally posted by darthsith19
The logic was "Makashi is the dueling form. Dooku mastered Makashi, so he pwns all".

Makes sense to me. 😐

Originally posted by Gideon
When Lightsnake came to these forums, it was essentially an e-revolution. He came with cited sources and changed people's opinions and suddenly, these folks were in the vast minority, and so they chose to leave.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Makes sense to me. 😐

Err... lol. Then how come Dooku was owned by Anakin when they fought?

You see, it's not as clear cut as 'it was made for dueling, so it curbstomps all other forms'; you see, people can specialize their techniques to make them very duel-worthy. This, for example, is Anakin's Shien morphing into the dueling-oriented Djem So, Windu's Vaapad is also very potent in lightsaber combat, Obi-Wan's Soresu proved itself highly useful; yeah. Being a master of Makashi doesn't make you invincible.

[QUOTE=10648651]Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
[B]Err... lol. Then how come Dooku was owned by Anakin when they fought?
at that point dooku made a critical mistake. He should have dodged or glanced anakin's lightsaber to the side. Instead he took the full force of anakin's enraged strength. Makashi is fencing, anakin was wildy swinging as if with a heavy battle axe.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Err... lol. Then how come Dooku was owned by Anakin when they fought?

You see, it's not as clear cut as 'it was made for dueling, so it curbstomps all other forms'; you see, people can specialize their techniques to make them very duel-worthy. This, for example, is Anakin's Shien morphing into the dueling-oriented Djem So, Windu's Vaapad is also very potent in lightsaber combat, Obi-Wan's Soresu proved itself highly useful; yeah. Being a master of Makashi doesn't make you invincible.

You missed the point. Makashi is the 'ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat', therfore by its very nature it will be more effective in a duel than the other forms. It was made for the sole purpose of lightsaber combat, and Count Dooku - who is one of the most powerful force users in the Jedi Order's 25,000 year history, and an even greater Sith Lord - has mastered the form its highest possible degree.

I'm not saying that Vaapad and Djem So practicioners are less skilled, or that they couldn't beat a Makashi wielder; to do so would be ridiculous. Im merely saying that in a one on one duel with a Makashi practicioner like Darth Tyranus, they will be at a disadvantage from the get go. Alas, given the Count's skill, experience and sheer power, he would be one of the most formiddable opponents in the Star Wars timeline.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
You missed the point. Makashi is the 'ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat', therfore by its very nature it will be more effective in a duel than the other forms. It was made for the sole purpose of lightsaber combat, and Count Dooku - who is one of the most powerful force users in the Jedi Order's 25,000 year history, and an even greater Sith Lord - has mastered the form its highest possible degree.

I'm not saying that Vaapad and Djem So practicioners are less skilled, or that they couldn't beat a Makashi wielder; to do so would be ridiculous. Im merely saying that in a one on one duel with a Makashi practicioner like Darth Tyranus, they will be at a disadvantage from the get go. Alas, given the Count's skill, experience and sheer power, he would be one of the most formiddable opponents in the Star Wars timeline.

I'm not denying Dooku's prodigious skill; he is, most certainly, a highly skilled adversary in combat and is second only to Anakin, Mace, Yoda, and Sidious in terms of skill in lightsaber combat. Other than that, he can defeat any PT or OT individual in lightsaber combat.

He's certainly among the best duelists in Star Wars history; in fact, I see very few other than the people mentioned above who could defeat him in lightsaber combat. Well, I'd say that Bane, Kyle Katarn, and probably Jacen can probably defeat him in lightsaber combat. Sidious, Anakin, Mace, and Yoda can also do it, but with varying degrees of difficulty; however, other than those people, I can't really think of someone who can defeat him (please enlighten me if you think of someone).

Makashi is, indeed, the 'ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat'; it's the only form designed specifically to counter lightsabers in combat. However, masters of other forms, such as Djem So, Vaapad, Soresu, and Ataru can probably also increase their lightsaber combat abilities. For example, you saw that Yoda dominated Dooku and Anakin basically beat him in 1:30 minutes; they're a master of Ataru and Djem So, respectively. Also note that as Sidious was called a master of every form, he is undoubtedly well-versed in Makashi, Juyo, Ataru, and the likes; so the Count's mastery of Makashi won't put him necessarily aboce Sidious.

Edit: I forgot Luke, who should defnetly beat Dooku in combat.

Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
Nope. I don't. Were you also a part of the "Everyone and their moms can own Sidious" parade, or were you more objective/more like today? xD

Originally posted by darthsith19
What? You mean the ancients own Sidious parade? Kind of, but I didn't think that they owned him. Just beat him.

Still, it's better than looking at a thread's title, see that it says "Sidious" on it, and barge in and randomly say "Sidious gets owned."

I never thought Dooku > Sidious, if that's what your wondering. Not even in saber combat.

Originally posted by darthsith19
I never thought Dooku > Sidious, if that's what your wondering. Not even in saber combat.

Never said that.

I just browsed through this thread called "Marka Ragnos runs the gauntlet", and I laughed my ass off. And yet I couldn't decide what was funnier- Swirly Girl claiming Ragnos would own DE Sidious without full use of his limbs, or Lightsnake completely pwning them and them, in their desperation, resorting to bashing him. Funniest thing I've read in ages.

Originally posted by Lord Knightfa11
[QUOTE=10648651]Originally posted by Sidi-Boy
[B]Err... lol. Then how come Dooku was owned by Anakin when they fought?
at that point dooku made a critical mistake. He should have dodged or glanced anakin's lightsaber to the side. Instead he took the full force of anakin's enraged strength. Makashi is fencing, anakin was wildy swinging as if with a heavy battle axe.

To dismiss Anakin's skill as "wild swinging" is wildly ignorant, do you concur?

I'm going to bump this. I've just caught Nai in a major lie, he obviously won't concede, so I'm going to have to drag more posts from this. Besides, it's funny as hell.

May I ask who is Nai?

Bump #3. Going to have to be coming back here to spring the trap Nai walked into.

Sidious win this for sure. Compare Sidious's battle with Yoda, and then compare Dooku's battle with Yoda.

It did not even look like Yoda was struggling against Dooku. The only force attack Yoda used against Dooku was when he redirected his lightning. Other than that Yoda was just blocking all Dooku's attacks. And their saber fight did not even last that long, because Dooku fled. Dooku got absolutely no hits on Yoda.

When Yoda fought Sidious he was struggling big time. Yoda was thrown against the wall by Sidious's force lightning. Then he attacked Sidious back by throwing him over his table. Yoda's saber duel with Sidious lasted a lot longer than his duel with Dooku. Yoda barely managed to escape being crushed by several senate pods that Sidious threw at him. Yoda also tried to crush Sidious with a senate pod. Then Sidious managed to blast Yoda's lightsaber out of his hand with force lightning(Dooku could not even blast Kenobi's lightsaber out of his hand). Yoda also had a much harder time blocking Sidious's lightning, than he did Dooku's.

So in other words Sidious is on a way higher level than Dooku.

Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Sidious win this for sure. Compare Sidious's battle with Yoda, and then compare Dooku's battle with Yoda.

My friend, I certainly hope you're not trying to employ A>B>C logic, because that would be foolish. Very foolish indeed.

Other than that Yoda was just blocking all Dooku's attacks. And their saber fight did not even last that long, because Dooku fled. Dooku got absolutely no hits on Yoda.

Yoda was blocking Dooku's attacks. Dooku was blocking Yoda's attacks. The point is Yoda was unable to breach Dooku's defence throughout the entirety of their encounter. I would have thought that because so much was at stake, Yoda would not be holding back at all, and would do everything in his power to capture the Count. After all, his escape would mean the death of billions of innocent civilians around the galaxy.
Or, heck I don't know, maybe Yoda simply couldn't capture the Count.

Dooku fled because Republic reinforcements were on their way. As skilled as the Count is, I find it unlikely that he would want to stick around and fight Yoda and a legion of Clone Troopers.

(Dooku could not even blast Kenobi's lightsaber out of his hand).

With all due respect, I find it highly unlikely that Dooku's display of force lightning was anything more than just that - a display. Considering the extremely casual way he conducted himself, and the 2 seconds worth of lightning he actually emitted, one would assume that he was merely showing off. And last time I checked, Count Dooku was one of the most arrogant characters in the Star Wars timeline; so we can hardly begrudge him a little opportunity to show off.

Enough, Rampant. Yoda wasn't attacking Count Dooku to his greatest capability, as demonstrated by his own words ("captured, Dooku must be"😉 and his actions later on the dark side world of Vjun. They're not close.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
My friend, I certainly hope you're not trying to employ A>B>C logic, because that would be foolish. Very foolish indeed.

Yoda was blocking Dooku's attacks. Dooku was blocking Yoda's attacks. The point is Yoda was unable to breach Dooku's defence throughout the entirety of their encounter. I would have thought that because so much was at stake, Yoda would not be holding back at all, and would do everything in his power to capture the Count. After all, his escape would mean the death of billions of innocent civilians around the galaxy.
Or, heck I don't know, maybe Yoda simply couldn't capture the Count.

Dooku fled because Republic reinforcements were on their way. As skilled as the Count is, I find it unlikely that he would want to stick around and fight Yoda and a legion of Clone Troopers.

With all due respect, I find it highly unlikely that Dooku's display of force lightning was anything more than just that - a display. Considering the extremely casual way he conducted himself, and the 2 seconds worth of lightning he actually emitted, one would assume that he was merely showing off. And last time I checked, Count Dooku was one of the most arrogant characters in the Star Wars timeline; so we can hardly begrudge him a little opportunity to show off.

How was Dooku blocking Yoda's force attacks? Yoda was not even throwing any force attacks at Dooku. Yoda was merely shrugging off Dooku's attacks. Yoda did not attempt to force push Dooku, or force throw any abjects at him. Yoda's exact words to Dooku was: " Much to learn you still have". In other words Yoda was telling Dooku that he was not as powerful as he thought.

When Yoda went after Sidious, his intentions were to kill Sidious. His itentions were not to kill Dooku, because he was not sure Dooku was behind it.

You say Dooku's lightning was only lasted only 2 seconds, and that is why he didn't blast Obi Wan's saber away. Well it took Sidious less than a second to blast Yoda's lightsaber out of his hand.

It is quite noticeable that Sidious's and Yoda's lightsaber fight was much more intense, and their use of the force was much more extreme. It took Sidious less time to rip senate pods from their durasteel restraints and throw them, than it did for Dooku to rip much lighter machinery from the wall to throw. Im sure you noticed all this as well.