Originally posted by Mizukage Yoda
lol if your arm is being twisted to the point of breakage yes; if you arm wrestle a person your arm can break to the point where the bone will protrude from the skin, so yes that process can be very painfull
Anybody who has had their arm broke during arm wrestling does not know how to arm wrestle. He was not screaming in pain. He was screaming out in frustration, because he was struggling against Yoda's strength.
Originally posted by Rampant oxFanboyism at its most spectacular.
You missed the point. Makashi is the 'ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat', therfore by its very nature it will be more effective in a duel than the other forms. It was made for the sole purpose of lightsaber combat, and Count Dooku - who is one of the most powerful force users in the Jedi Order's 25,000 year history, and an even greater Sith Lord - has mastered the form its highest possible degree.I'm not saying that Vaapad and Djem So practicioners are less skilled, or that they couldn't beat a Makashi wielder; to do so would be ridiculous. Im merely saying that in a one on one duel with a Makashi practicioner like Darth Tyranus, they will be at a disadvantage from the get go. Alas, given the Count's skill, experience and sheer power, he would be one of the most formiddable opponents in the Star Wars timeline.
The Sidious DESTROYS his ass, even Yoda had trouble blocking and withstanding Sidious' lightning but when he faced Dooku, it seemed as if he barely exerted himself at all and even manged to throw it back at him.
Palpatine managed to slaughter the B-team and put Mace on the defensive and ACTED like he was running out of power.
Dooku never manged to beat or truly rival Mace in anything.
Depa Billaba could beat Dookie with Vaapad as well.
Originally posted by Gideon
Enough, Rampant. Yoda wasn't attacking Count Dooku to his greatest capability, as demonstrated by his own words ("captured, Dooku must be"😉 and his actions later on the dark side world of Vjun. They're not close.
This is interesting, Gideon.
Oh...I don't mean the ideas you're presenting but more the fact that you're arguing out of ignorance pretty well. Why don't you just argue like this: "It is my opinion that Yoda wasn't attacking Count Dooku with all he could and therefor it didn't happen." Ipsedixitism.
Or wait. Let me point out the obvious flaw in your reasoning: From the words "Capture Dooku, we must" you're concluding that:
a) Yoda wouldn't kill him
b) Yoda wouldn't fight with all he could against the Count
c) If Yoda had done it, Dooku would have been toast.
Nice. Because, you know, Yoda's line of thought is going on in that special case. In fact, the full quote says this: "Capture Dooku, we must. If escapes he does, he will rally more systems to his cause."
So let me get this straigth, Gideon. Yoda wanted to prevent Dooku from rallying more systems to his cause. Can this only be done by capturing Dooku? Nope. Killing him would have pretty much had the same effect - mentioned by Mace Windu in "Shatterpoint" when he regrets not killing Dooku when he had the chance to do the job.
Granted. Yoda might have not wanted to kill Dooku. Does that mean he wasn't fighting with all he could? See. I'm pretty sure that Obi-Wan didn't want to kill Anakin either in RotS. Does that mean that Obi-Wan wasn't fighting Anakin with all he could - and still won? What a great line of thought that is...
But "let's be realistic". The only thing that Yoda didn't do to stop Dooku was sacrificing Obi-Wan and Anakin to do the job. Aside of that you've nothing to suggest that he didn't attack the Sith Lord with all he could. Especially when siting their confrontation in DR, where Yoda tells Dooku that he will kill him if that should be necessary. Another great job with the logical reasoning there, Gideon.
One could assume that this is enough. But no. You're even going one step further in stating that, had Yoda attacked Dooku like he did attack Sidious, Dooku would have been instantly killed. Good god, Sandy. Where have you been at the day they passed out common sense?
May I just point out for you that Dooku, unlike Sidious, had fought Yoda in sparing matches before and went to two duels with the Jedi Master (AotC, DR)? If the training time Obi-Wan and Anakin spent together is the regular time Master and Padawan spent together, they might even have fought each other over thousands of hours in practice, which means that Dooku knows Yoda inside out. May I also point out for you that Yoda himself claimed that the only Jedi being a match for Dooku in terms of lightsaber skills on equal ground is Mace Windu. Notice: Yoda is not only excluding himself with that statement (as his ability rests within his force powers and not necessarily his raw lightsaber ability). No. He puts Dooku on a level with the very same Mace Windu that overpowered Sidious in a lightsaber duel. And may I also point out for you that Sidious, from what we see in RotS, didn't last a second longer against Yoda in a lightsaber duel than Dooku did? Both fights are going on for about half a minute before the respective Sith Lords quits combat. Yet Dooku, unlike Sidious if we want to thrust the RotS Script, didn't lose his lightsaber but - on both occassions he faced Yoda - decided to quit the lightsaber battle on his own. So much for the facts, which seem to suggest that Dooku would survive against Yoda longer than Sidious could when it comes down to a lightsaber fight.
And by the way Gideon: As you spent such on ridiculous amount of time with Yodas thoughts, why didn't you take Dookus thoughts into considerations once? He was confronted with his own former master and as it seems he didn't want to kill him either. So if you assume Yoda wasn't going all out on Yoda, one could assume that the same was true for Dooku. Because Dooku doesn't seem to be too keen on killing Jedi, going by the fact that he promised to spare the Jedi during the arena battle and, as well, didn't kill Obi-Wan and Anakin when he clearly had the chance to do so. Yet we shall assume that he did all he could to defeat Yoda, a guy which he respected and feared even more than Sidious going by his thoughts in DR?
That aside from using the a nice Yoda > Dooku, Yoda = Sidious (wrong premise there) argument to conclude that Sidious > Dooku. I thought it was established that those A>B>C arguments don't work. But since you apply them: Dooku=Mace, Mace> Sidious; conclusion Dooku>Sidious. See. I can do that stuff, too. 🙄
Actually Obi Wan did go to mustafar to kill Anakin. He even told Anakin that he will do what he must, meaning if he had to kill him he would have. There is a big difference in trying to kill someone and trying to capture them. When you try to capture someone you hold back more, in order to not kill them. When you try to kill someone there is nothing that holds you back, you do everything you can to strike the fatal blow.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66
Actually Obi Wan did go to mustafar to kill Anakin. He even told Anakin that he will do what he must, meaning if he had to kill him he would have.
You mean just like Yoda told Dooku he would kill him if that is what is necessary to stop him in DR?
You see: We have two Jedi here that don't want to kill their former apprentices (Yoda and Obi-Wan). Now either they are chosing not to do so because of their emotions, or they are deciding to do the job, because their Jedi training has taught them not to let emotions cloud their judgement. Apparently Obi-Wan and Yoda both decided to do their job, even against their own will. Period.
And that means they both did all they could to defeat their former apprentices. Yet both don't do the job. Yoda doesn't sacrifice Obi-Wan and Anakin in AotC in order to stop Dooku. Obi-Wan doesn't kill Anakin in RotS, despite having the chance to do that. That doesn't affect the effort both of them used to defeat their former apprentices.
There is a big difference in trying to kill someone and trying to capture them. When you try to capture someone you hold back more, in order to not kill them. When you try to kill someone there is nothing that holds you back, you do everything you can to strike the fatal blow.
Oh. There speaks the great swordsman and warrior Sidious 66. In fact, dude, it doesn't matter if you want to kill or capture an opponent, as you have to defeat him in both cases. And if you have the opportunity to kill an opponent, you also have the chance to hurt, wound, cripple or disarm them to end the fight. So "holding back" to capture an opponent means that you can do pretty much everything except of killing him, which also means that it's stupid to not attack him with everything you could do since you can still decide to end his life or just end the fight in another way if you have the chance to do that.
And here we're back at Obi-Wan Kenobi. But see. He decides to cut his legs off instead of cutting him in halves and he also decides to leave Anakin down at the lava instead of finishing the job. So...apparently he still didn't want to kill Anakin.
Yoda told him he would kill him if it was necessary, but he didn't think it was necesary otherwise he would not of tryed to persuade him to turn back to the light. Obi Wan went to mustafar to kill Anakin. He did not go there to capture Anakin.
When you are just trying to capture someone you try to keep yourself from fighting to hard, as you might accidently kill your opponent. See when you are trying to kill them you dont hold back at all. You use more strength trying to kill someone.
If you put someone in a choke hold, but without trying to kill them, you are not going to put all your strength in it. But if you are trying to kill them you are not going to hold back, you are going to put all your strength in it to kill them right? Just like with a saber fight you are going to try to avoid slashing your victims in fatal areas.
Originally posted by Borbarad
This is interesting, Gideon.
Oh...I don't mean the ideas you're presenting but more the fact that you're arguing out of ignorance pretty well. Why don't you just argue like this: "It is my opinion that Yoda wasn't attacking Count Dooku with all he could and therefor it didn't happen." Ipsedixitism.
We've been through this before, Nai. Far too many times to warrant my attention in going down again. Reserve your posting space for someone who will allow themselves to be baited.
a) Yoda wouldn't kill him
By his own words, Nai, and his actions not only at Geonosis but Vjun, he demonstrates a complete hesitation to kill his former padawan. It's not really up for debate.
b) Yoda wouldn't fight with all he could against the Count
In the same regard that the assembled Imperial fleet at the Battle of Endor wasn't "fighting with all they could" against the invading forces of the Rebel Alliance, only this time it wasn't orders that stopped Yoda from attacking Dooku to his greatest extent, but attachment. Unless you're suggesting that one can attack to one's fullest -- that is, the absence of restraint, the intent to kill -- when the priority is to capture that enemy.
c) If Yoda had done it, Dooku would have been toast.
Based on the Count's performance on Vjun, a planet where he was empowered greatly by the dark side, and still forced to retreat? Yes, it's evident: on a neutral setting, Yoda would annihilate the Count.
Nice. Because, you know, Yoda's line of thought is going on in that special case. In fact, the full quote says this: "Capture Dooku, we must. If escapes he does, he will rally more systems to his cause."
That doesn't change its meaning, Nai.
So let me get this straigth, Gideon. Yoda wanted to prevent Dooku from rallying more systems to his cause. Can this only be done by capturing Dooku? Nope. Killing him would have pretty much had the same effect - mentioned by Mace Windu in "Shatterpoint" when he regrets not killing Dooku when he had the chance to do the job.
Bringing up Shatterpoint is to your detriment, Nai, as Windu's prologue reiterates the fact that he made a foolish error in not slaying the Count when he had the chance; Windu was bound by attachment for his former colleague and it doomed the galaxy to a war.
Granted. Yoda might have not wanted to kill Dooku. Does that mean he wasn't fighting with all he could? See. I'm pretty sure that Obi-Wan didn't want to kill Anakin either in RotS. Does that mean that Obi-Wan wasn't fighting Anakin with all he could - and still won? What a great line of thought that is...
First, Yoda didn't want to kill Dooku. I have proven so based on words and performance. If you seek to challenge that, you must disprove my evidence.
Second, according to Vader: the Ultimate Visual Guide, when Kenobi "releases his feelings" for Anakin, "the battle turns for the Jedi."
But "let's be realistic". The only thing that Yoda didn't do to stop Dooku was sacrificing Obi-Wan and Anakin to do the job. Aside of that you've nothing to suggest that he didn't attack the Sith Lord with all he could. Especially when siting their confrontation in DR, where Yoda tells Dooku that he will kill him if that should be necessary. Another great job with the logical reasoning there, Gideon.
"Wish to hurt you, I do not!" says Yoda, to which Dooku replies: "That's funny. Because I'm going to enjoy killing you." Yoda's eventual response is: "Love you enough to destroy you, I do."
You're not allowed to shade previous statements, Nai. Don't presume to try to twist evidence into leading the rest of us to believe that Yoda's priority was to kill Dooku throughout the duel. It is evident that though he is willing, now, to kill his former protege, it is not his top priority. Dooku's, on the other hand? Kill.
One could assume that this is enough. But no. You're even going one step further in stating that, had Yoda attacked Dooku like he did attack Sidious, Dooku would have been instantly killed. Good god, Sandy. Where have you been at the day they passed out common sense?
It's a highly supported line of thought. Yoda attacked Palpatine without restraint and sought to commit regicide. Not so with Dooku.
May I just point out for you that Dooku, unlike Sidious, had fought Yoda in sparing matches before and went to two duels with the Jedi Master (AotC, DR)? If the training time Obi-Wan and Anakin spent together is the regular time Master and Padawan spent together, they might even have fought each other over thousands of hours in practice, which means that Dooku knows Yoda inside out. May I also point out for you that Yoda himself claimed that the only Jedi being a match for Dooku in terms of lightsaber skills on equal ground is Mace Windu. Notice: Yoda is not only excluding himself with that statement (as his ability rests within his force powers and not necessarily his raw lightsaber ability). No. He puts Dooku on a level with the very same Mace Windu that overpowered Sidious in a lightsaber duel. And may I also point out for you that Sidious, from what we see in RotS, didn't last a second longer against Yoda in a lightsaber duel than Dooku did? Both fights are going on for about half a minute before the respective Sith Lords quits combat. Yet Dooku, unlike Sidious if we want to thrust the RotS Script, didn't lose his lightsaber but - on both occassions he faced Yoda - decided to quit the lightsaber battle on his own. So much for the facts, which seem to suggest that Dooku would survive against Yoda longer than Sidious could when it comes down to a lightsaber fight.
That would only work if your premise is that Mace Windu is "better" than Palpatine in terms of natural ability. Is he the more skilled combatant? That depends; both Palpatine and Windu are masters of Juyo, which requires high end mastery in multiple forms. The only difference is that Windu has had a decade more experience than Sidious, who hasn't touched a lightsaber since his time as Chancellor. Still, Windu was no match for Sidious during the initial portion of the fight. Only once he submerged himself in Vaapad was he able to match the Sith Lord's ferocity. That's not the same thing as "Windu > Palpatine as a swordsman" since Windu, technically, only defeated the Chancellor by utilizing Palpatine's own advantages.
And by the way Gideon: As you spent such on ridiculous amount of time with Yodas thoughts, why didn't you take Dookus thoughts into considerations once? He was confronted with his own former master and as it seems he didn't want to kill him either. So if you assume Yoda wasn't going all out on Yoda, one could assume that the same was true for Dooku.
You're not allowed to commit blind speculation.
Because Dooku doesn't seem to be too keen on killing Jedi, going by the fact that he promised to spare the Jedi during the arena battle and, as well, didn't kill Obi-Wan and Anakin when he clearly had the chance to do so.
Windu ascertained the intent behind Dooku's demand for surrender: "We will not be used as hostages to barter, Dooku." It wasn't out of any moral or personal hesitation.
Yet we shall assume that he did all he could to defeat Yoda, a guy which he respected and feared even more than Sidious going by his thoughts in DR?
Dooku himself confirms that he would take "great pleasure" in killing Yoda, all throughout the novelization.
Secondly, Labyrinth of Evil, Clone Wars, and Dark Rendezvous make it very clear: Dooku respects Darth Sidious far more than Yoda. If he "feared" and "respected" Yoda more, Nai, he would have betrayed Sidious to Yoda. But he did not. Furthermore, the only time that he remotely fears Yoda is when, and I urge you to take note, Yoda "for an instant, looked exactly like Darth Sidious."
That aside from using the a nice Yoda > Dooku, Yoda = Sidious (wrong premise there) argument to conclude that Sidious > Dooku. I thought it was established that those A>B>C arguments don't work. But since you apply them: Dooku=Mace, Mace> Sidious; conclusion Dooku>Sidious. See. I can do that stuff, too. 🙄
No one but you and Sidious 66 is giving out ABC arguments, Nai.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66No, you haven't.
Everyone keeps saying im giving out a,b,c arguements, but i have giving more logical and common sense-based arguements than most.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66That makes sense, considering all the choke holds in Star Wars. Your opponent is defeated before he's captured. Force-sensitives are dangerous even if they've no weapon, so relieving them of any ability to continue the fight is paramount. Then you capture them.
Yoda told him he would kill him if it was necessary, but he didn't think it was necesary otherwise he would not of tryed to persuade him to turn back to the light. Obi Wan went to mustafar to kill Anakin. He did not go there to capture Anakin.When you are just trying to capture someone you try to keep yourself from fighting to hard, as you might accidently kill your opponent. See when you are trying to kill them you dont hold back at all. You use more strength trying to kill someone.
If you put someone in a choke hold, but without trying to kill them, you are not going to put all your strength in it. But if you are trying to kill them you are not going to hold back, you are going to put all your strength in it to kill them right? Just like with a saber fight you are going to try to avoid slashing your victims in fatal areas.
The choke hold was an example.
So Yoda's planning and thinking: " Im going to relieve Sidious of any ability to continue fighting... Then im going to kill him"? No i don't think so. His plan was basically to kill Sidious no matter how he did it, even if it took slashing his head off, knocking him off the rotunda, or smashing him with a senate pod. He would not try those moves on someone he was trying to capture, due to the possibility of them being killed.
Originally posted by SIDIOUS 66I'm not arguing Yoda's intentions, he aimed to kill. I'm arguing that if it's your intention to capture someone, then you have to disarm first.
The choke hold was an example.So Yoda's planning and thinking: " Im going to relieve Sidious of any ability to continue fighting... Then im going to kill him"? No i don't think so. His plan was basically to kill Sidious no matter how he did it, even if it took slashing his head off, knocking him off the rotunda, or smashing him with a senate pod. He would not try those moves on someone he was trying to capture, due to the possibility of them being killed.