Dooku vs. Sidious

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
I am a Sidious fan. But I do not act in bias. I believe Count Dooku was highly intelligent and very clever. It is true Sidious had the superior intellect. I believe even Nai had the...I dunno...decency to admit that Dooku couldn't have brought about the Empire. Dooku was manipulated, true. But Sidious was the superior Sith Lord. All evidence proves TO that.

Well...please...don't twist my words.

Dooku could (!) have brought about the Empire. After he took his title as Count of Sorenno, Dooku was one of the richest beings in the entire SW universe. Since the entire Senate was corrupt he could have "bought" himself voices and become the next chancelor or change laws as he liked.

But he was a politicial idealist and he wanted to fight corruption. So he didn't use his (financial) abilities. That was the reason for him not to kill Sidious. If he had done that (and he COULD have done that) he would have been forced to act against his own ideals to gain political influence.

Still it was Dooku who fooled all of the CSS leaders and talked them into a civil war that they were about to lose before it had even started. That was Sidious plan but it were Dookus actions and diplomatic skills.

And for the manipulation: Dooku and Sidious shared the same (political) goals to a certain degree and the only time where Sidious really fooled Dooku was when he told him to lose to Anakin and then had Anakin kill Dooku. Everything else Dooku did served his own goals just as well as it served Sidious ones.

Originally posted by Darth Windu
1) Not neccessarily. That's somewhat silly from you Revan; I'd expect better. The Master may have things to teach the Apprentice, but in Dooku's case, he was just a pawn. And I agree with Sorgo. Dooku's 83 years grant him nearly two decades more practice and training than Sidious.

2) True; but did you look at the expression on Dooku's face when he blasted Anakin and fired at Obi-Wan? He just threw his hand up and blasted away. But then, you see him concentrating more on Yoda, and look what happens. He blasts the ceiling to pieces with deflected lightning. And Yoda wasn't casual; he was trying. And Sidious' lightning may be powerful, but Dooku barely needed to struggle to reflect twice deflected lightning of his own. And Sidious fired at Mace from point blank range, a couple of feet away.

3) Dooku is a better duelist than Sidious. But how did Dooku flee like a coward? He knew he might die, but moreso, he carried the plans for the Death Star. It would be a HUGE loss to the Separatist cause if these were destroyed or lost. And did you see Dooku run away to higher ground? Escape a duel? Dooku outright challenged Yoda, in both a Force-battle And a duel. He STARTED the duel. Sidious tried to run away before it'd begun. Who's the bigger coward? And you're right, Yoda wasn't struggling as much. But he wasn't gaining any ground, either. He attacked and attacked, and Dooku just took it head on, taking some steps away to position himself well. Not to mention Dooku was right in front of Yoda the entire duel, not a couple of hundred feet away chucking half a dozen speeder-size pods at him while he ran towards him.

1: True, but only partially. Just because he older doesn't mean he could beat Sidious.

2: He reflected his own lighting he also did that so casually because he trained in the light for about 70 years. He probably learned that ability from Master Yoda when he was his Padawan.

3: I agree with you on all of it exept for one thing. Sidious tried run because he wasn't expecting Yoda and knew that he might lose that battle. Of course in the end that didn't matter because he ended up being even stonger than Yoda.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
See my statement above.

If you realy want to start reasoning like that: Dooku threw Anakin through the entire room with his force lightning in AotC and took him out of the battle for a few minutes.
Luke in ROTJ had less training and less potential compared to Anakin in AotC. Now Sidious pushed him 1 or 2 metres backwards with the kynetic energy of his force lightning and kept using it on him for more than 30 seconds. Still Luke was back on his feet 20 seconds later and carried his farther through the half death star.

Now...I don't think that Sidious lightning is FAR more powerful than Dookus one.

Now realy. Yoda would have defeated Dooku and he also would have defeated Sidious and Sidious would have go down faster in a lightsaber duel than Dooku.
Please keep in mind that Dooku had constant training with that weapon while Sidious could only have 2 opponents before RotS: Plagueis and Maul.

Sidious would use force lightning on Dooku. Dooku will deflect it. Then they will engage in a lightsaber duel and Sidious will simply go down vs Dooku.

I think ROTJ Luke would beat down AOTC Anakin. People seriously underestimate Luke. He beat Vader and has shown that he has many Force powers. You can't even say he hasn't mastered them because he has shown them just as good as AOTC Obi. Now he did have less training, but his training was far better. Yoda devoted all his time to personally training Luke and Luke alone, Obi's spirit helped as well. Anakin on other hand, didn't have an assignment of his own for 10 years so he always had Obi's help. Jedi didn't focus on training nearly as much, but on meditation and peace. Luke worked his butt off, and had incentive to get stronger. By ESB he could compete with Vader who's about 80% as strong as Sidious. Obviously Luke lost, but he still held his own for a while and got in a few good hits. In ROTJ he pwned Vader in 40 seconds. I don't consider Anakin to be as strong as 80% Sidious and therefore Luke would kick his butt IMO.

Back on topic, your only good point was that Sidious only had two opponents to face. How many did Yoda have though? Sidious still killed 3 council members in 7 seconds or so, and held his own BETTER against Yoda than Dooku. Sidious is superior to Dooku which makes sense anyway since he is the master and Dooku doesn't question Sidious.

1) I didn't say it's a guarantee; but eighteen years more practice is a hell of an advantage.

2) So what if he reflectd his own lightning? It was strong as hell if it shattered the stone ceiling. And Yoda wouldn't teach that technique to a Jedi.

3) Exactly; he knew he might lose. Dooku outright challeneged Yoda, twice. He stood his ground and, smiling, said, "I've become far more powerful than any Jedi. Even you." He shoots lightning, and does his little Force Battle routine. Then he says "It's obvious that we cannot decide a victor through ur mastery of the Force; but by our skills with a lightsaber." And what does Sidious do? Throws Yoda into a wall with lightning, gets thrown across the room himself by a retaliation, and tries to run away. Lot's of confidence there.

And obviously you didn't read anyone's take on the Yoda vs. Sidious battle other than your fellow fanboys'. Why did Sidious try to run away if he was stronger? Don't say he underestimated himself. That would be bull. Why did your Force God run freom Yoda in a straight up duel after fifteen, twenty seconds? Why did he stand a hundred metres, maybe more, from Yoda, attempting to knock the Jedi Master to his death? Because he knew that in a straight up competition of power, he would lose.

Now, I am in no way denying his power. If Yoda was uberly more powerful, he would have won for sure. But they are close, and as is Dooku in Force might. Which is why he would be able to defeat Sidious as well. Not because of superior power, but because he is almost in Sidious' class in that aspect, and his skills in dueling would aid him greatly. In that same contexy, Sidious is no slouch. But his dueling skills just can't compete with those of Dooku.

Originally posted by Nai Fohl
Well...please...don't twist my words.

Dooku could (!) have brought about the Empire. After he took his title as Count of Sorenno, Dooku was one of the richest beings in the entire SW universe. Since the entire Senate was corrupt he could have "bought" himself voices and become the next chancelor or change laws as he liked.

But he was a politicial idealist and he wanted to fight corruption. So he didn't use his (financial) abilities. That was the reason for him not to kill Sidious. If he had done that (and he COULD have done that) he would have been forced to act against his own ideals to gain political influence.

Still it was Dooku who fooled all of the CSS leaders and talked them into a civil war that they were about to lose before it had even started. That was Sidious plan but it were Dookus actions and diplomatic skills.

And for the manipulation: Dooku and Sidious shared the same (political) goals to a certain degree and the only time where Sidious really fooled Dooku was when he told him to lose to Anakin and then had Anakin kill Dooku. Everything else Dooku did served his own goals just as well as it served Sidious ones.

Hey Nai Fohl have you ever considered becoming a lawyer? Your attention to detail is near-perfect.

✅

Yeah, Nai is gonna be a lawyer. Gonna challenge that German language reform, maybe?

Originally posted by Emperor Revan
Back on topic, your only good point was that Sidious only had two opponents to face. How many did Yoda have though? Sidious still killed 3 council members in 7 seconds or so, and held his own BETTER against Yoda than Dooku. Sidious is superior to Dooku which makes sense anyway since he is the master and Dooku doesn't question Sidious.

1.)
How many opponents Yoda had. Erm...850 years = 34 generations of Jedi (including his own padawans) or more than 10 Council generations. At least we know that he had practiced a lot against Dooku and Mace and he could take Deepa Billaba, Plo Koon and Saesee Tiin at once.

2.)
Sidious performed better against Yoda than Dooku ? Really ? In their entire lightsaber fight, Sidious is completely in the defence. He is just parrying and he isn't even doing so with ease although he is in the better position. And he did run away from Yoda. Hell...

Dooku did fight Yoda on equal ground and he was able to attack Yoda serveral times and he had the confidence that he can beat Yoda (although I don't believe he could). Dooku had probably thousands of practice hours against Yoda since he was Yodas former padawan.

@darthrevan89:
Becoming a lawyer is terrible hard to do here in Germany. That requires 6 years of studying (at least) and we have many, many, many lawyers here so it's quite hard to find a job.

@Janus:
Challenge the German language reform is as useful as installing smoke detectors in hell. They don't listen to language professors, journalists, authors and so on - so they won't listen to a lawyer. 😉

Originally posted by Darth Somebody
I'd advise you to keep those particular jokes - such as the one that involves my death - to yourself. I would hate to see you banned over a domestic situation here. If you can't beat me in an argument, keep your comments to yourself. K? Good.

The artificial remark is actually more of a reason he was defeated. Luke, Dooku, Sidious, or Maul could never beat Vader in brute strength. He was stronger than all four of them. Sidious isn't particularly big either. So considering Vader picked him up and tossed him down a shaft - and was mortally wounded in the process - doesn't say much.

Anakin couldn't pick Sidious up with one hand. And neither could anyone else. It's something only a machine (Vader) could do.

I'd advise you to keep those particular jokes - such as the one that involves my death - to yourself. I would hate to see you banned over a domestic situation here. If you can't beat me in an argument, keep your comments to yourself. K? Good.

STILL? Oh my dear lord....

Why don't you keep that big mouth of yours shut more often? It's starting to make you look bad.

As for me losing the arguement, did i not just explain to you that your "Super god" got chucked over the balcony by a one handed Mech-human, or was that someone else?

Anakin couldn't pick Sidious up with one hand. And neither could anyone else. It's something only a machine (Vader) could do.

That is a pathetically meaningless excuse for the reason of Sidious' death. He was supposed to be able to use precognition, and see things before they happened, right? But i guess he didn't see Vader chucking him into a Generator, now did he?

Oh, so now Sidious weighs 500 pounds? Anyone strong enough could lift Sidious using the force and chuck him into the Generator!

Let me guess, Vader had artificial brains that Sidious couldn't read? Or was Luke clouding Sidious' Vision?

So considering Vader picked him up and tossed him down a shaft - and was mortally wounded in the process - doesn't say much.

Cool.... but i am not defending Vader, now am i? So that's good for Vader, ok?

Anyone could have killed Sidious during his rampage. Hell, Vader could have ignited his saber and offed Sidious while Sidious was going nuts frying Luke.

He didn't see it coming because he was busy frying Luke and Obi-Wan interfered with his visions through most of ROTJ.

Originally posted by DarthGenises
He didn't see it coming because he was busy frying Luke and Obi-Wan interfered with his visions through most of ROTJ.

Obi-Wan interfered with his visions? What? did you pull that out your ass or somthing?

It was either him or Yoda I mean come on how else would his visions have come out so bad. You also become much more powerful as a force ghost.

Great news ! The NASA finally found water on Mars !

/\ LOL

Originally posted by DarthGenises
He didn't see it coming because he was busy frying Luke and Obi-Wan interfered with his visions through most of ROTJ.

Show me proof, son!

SHOW ME PROOF!

Amen!

I'm not excusing Sidious's death. I am saying that even a one handed Vader is stronger (physically) than Count Dooku, Mace, or Anakin. You were trying to insinuate Sidious was killed fairly easily, which I could agree to. But Vader's one arm holds more strength than any TWO of anyone else (except Grievous).

1. Count Dooku IS Darth Sidious's apprentice. No one, myself, Nai, OR Janus know the true reason. Yet in any other instance, we all believe that the master retains that title because he is the stronger of the two. And yet in this case, you say the opposite? Count Dooku is indeed vastly under-rated. But that does not mean you need to go and over-rate him.

2. I will be the first to admit Sidious is not a Force god. I have said he would get defeated by several people, including: Yoda, NJO Luke, Revan. Though I don't take it to the extremes you all do by often using the term of "owned". Many of you all believe Sidious to be weak and often imply that he has pathetic saber skills. He may not be a Tulak Hord or Darth Revan, but that does not mean he is weak. He struck down three Jedi Masters in three seconds and held his own against Mace and Yoda.

3. Nai, once more, you're making it sound like Sidious accomplished an easy task. I would advise you to remember that (I have stated this time again) no other Sith Lord - to our knowledge - has done what Sidious has done, whether it be by brute force or deception. As I would respect Revan for being the tactical gargantuan that he is or Tulak Hord for being the greatest Sith duelist - or Marka Ragnos for having an unparalleled reign - you ought to understand that neither of these three have conquered the galaxy (or even CLOSE) to what Sidious did.

Accomplishments aside, this has nothing to do with the duel. I respect and understand that. Sidious's ability to manipulate won't help him here, will it? No, and I agree.

Dooku can reach everything on the top shelf, he wins.

Dude, you cannot mess with my supreme logic. C'mon now.

Christopher Lee is like six-foot-four.

Oh hell, I don't care anymore. May the best Sith Lord win.