Michael and Lucifer Vs TOAA
Fully powered, I have heard that Michael and Lucifer are strong as or possibly stronger then the presence when together.
(by the way if I am wrong about this, didn't mean to be ignorant, saw it on these forums, not sure about it though which is why I included the word possibly)
if the title infact was true then the celestial TOAA would be .............the one above all anyway.............TOAA was shown to exaust all his powers when he gave his powers to thanos in thanos the end he died remaking the universe that would not happen to the presence he would just call lucifer and micheal to make a new multiverse there end of issue.
where talking about the guy who is the power behind the living tribunal right and isn't the "end" series an altrnate reality, and can't be used on the vs. forum expeshaly if it shows a differnce in the chareter. When what you said he exausted his powers that would mean he has a limit which would go agenst what we've seen before.
If TOAA was trully omnipresent, then the TOAA in that alternate reality was "the" TOAA, since he exist in all universes, since he is above the multiverse; but be that as it may be he is not the one above all, just because one has a title that says some thing it does not make it true. Marvel has never stated that TOAA is the rulling being of marvel. TOAA exausted his powers as was said, meaning he is not never ending, he is not infinite. Michael and Lucifer together are.
Actually Michael and Lucifer combined might equal or surpass the presence.
It still not proven that Michael and Lucifer combined are equal to The Presence. Although eleveninches stated the issue # but I still havent checked it out. Its also not proven that Lucifer(or Michael) will suceed The Presence since The Presence is already gone and he didnt appoint any successor.
(But the possibility is still there that combined they might surpass the presence, combined they would have power and will.)
Also, TOAA exausted all his powers when he absorbed the Marvel multiverse to recreate it, so TOAA is not infinite.
they both will never surpass the Presence, they are creations of his, he already appointed them both to be the rulers of the DCU, the problem is they both don't really want the job anymore since waiting for eons who would be the next ruler and sorta being lied too (though its for the greater good of YHWH's plan). Michael though died and Lucifer almost died and would have stayed dead if it wasn't for Elaine. God even told them both they WASN'T needed to create everything in Creation, it would have happened anyway and God would have done it.
Also in one of the JLA comic books while Zauriel was talking with 1 of the angels in heaven about becoming a mortal the other angel told him not to get involved with the earth girl like the Archangel Michael did and Michael fell because of a girl from earth, Zauriel didn't want to hear about that story and ignored it. this though is sorta interesting about Michael falling in JLA and whats going on in Lucifer's comic, kinda points maybe whats happening in Lucifer happened in a different time frame. who knows?? 😎
is the presence in DC the same in vertgo, if so the presence isn't infinit considering he's dead. I really hate comic book logic somtimes. Their's no such thing as almost infinit, if something can die it's not all powerfull, furthermore if what is being "killed" is spirit where does it "go" just nowere, what a load of crap they try to make us swallow because they don't want to put any time into thinking about the character. Good point Jesse about TOAA not being omnipresent, or omnipotant either. It makes a lot of since considering most of it's other attrubutes do not line up with a supreme creature. Now I can see how michael and lucifer could beat TOAA though I still and leaning on TOAA.
Originally posted by kevdude
The Presence in Vertigo and DC are the same. .
Nope theyre not conclusively. Merely having the same characters doesnt equate to it being within the same continuity, especially when those characters dont do the same things in their respective universes. We simply dont know for a fact so we all need to talk from two perspectives when mentioning the character in debates. For example as if they are the same and if theyre just different beings in unrelated creations merely based on the same template.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
lucifer and micheal are the presence's SONS, NOT merely his creation like spectar or sumthin, n yes, their combined powers do possibly surpass that of the presence.
WTF, what logic is that? How could their power surpass that of The Presence while The Presence created them and do to them what they are. They could do the same thing The Presence can (because he allows them), but they can not affect The Presence, if The Presence wouldn't allow them, but The Presence could make them human or put tham out of existence, even if they would combine their power, The Presence would put them easily out of existence, can you understand, look how easily The Presence created Michael and Lucifer, such power, and in the same way he would easily put them out, undone them.
What do you not understand. Lucifer exist because of The Presence, Michael exist because of The Presence, their power exist because of The Presence (so what is the problem, tell me), really what don't you undestand. The only being in DCU, or MU (if in MU is one like The Presence, which it is, but not revealed yet, we are not sure) who is completely undeafeatable, who is the ultimate, it's The Presence. Lucifer goen mad, he is stopped, if Michael gone mad, he would be stopped, if Spectre gone mad he would be stopped, if Michael and Lucifer combined would gone mad, they would be stopped (because there is The Presence), but if The Presence would chose to destroy everyhitng, well, it would be impossbile and he wouldn't and couldn't be stopped.