Originally posted by Jesse7
The Vertigo comics say otherwise. Which is why I and several others just tend to ignore Krona's role.DC Universe history and Vertigo history clash in alot ways though...
Precusely my point.
Show me where its stated Yahweh creayed a multiverse in Vertigo as opposed to a universe 😉
well everything was created by God, the multiverse wasn't even suppose to be and Krona messed up the Universe making it a Multiverse by looking to the beginning. after COIE it turned into 1 Universe what it was suppose to be in the first place.
Lucifer's comic is very hard to pin point where it is in DC/Vertigo Time line. At the same time everyone left Hell in Lucifer, the First of the Fallen was in Hell along with many demons welcoming him back to Hell. in the JLA years ago they told Zauriel about talking to human girls and warned him of the danger of doing so, and they used the Archangel Michael as a point saying Michael wasn't in Heaven anymore, Zauriel didn't want to hear the story about Michael and still wanted to be mortal and he was allowed too. has anyone read anything about Ragnarok?? GS did u yet?? it would be very interesting if u did to see the similarity's from real world Ragnarok to DC Ragnarok.
Oh GS could u scan a few Images of the angels talking about The Presence, i got 6 out of 9 of the Lucifer Hard back comic books and have only seen them talk about it in Lucifer 40, and ive seen u post more times when they have talked about The Presence but can't find them. 😛
Originally posted by kevdude
Oh GS could u scan a few Images of the angels talking about The Presence, i got 6 out of 9 of the Lucifer Hard back comic books and have only seen them talk about it in Lucifer 40, and ive seen u post more times when they have talked about The Presence but can't find them. 😛
Im a lazy f*cker but i'll see what i can do 😉
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. 😉Undoubtably it would be your opinion of what went on. Unless u wanna give me the URL? 🙂
nope, unlike u i give my oppinion after readin sumthin, ill post the convo, tell u to concentrate on a few important phrases n exlpain em.
{lucifer has stabbed micheal with his sword in the void n they both stand there as the energy released does its work}
micheal: and this is what excatly?
lucifer:the culmination of all my efforts. the end of PREDESTINATION. the end of TYRANNY.
i have ESCAPED from PROVIDENCE micheal. ive gone in the GOD BUSINESS.
you could join me if u wanted, ud be welcome.
micheal:i will consider it, but i think not. go well brother
{end of page}
NOW what does it LOOK like lucifer is saying? does it sound like the presence has control over the creation thas about to be made? can lucifer be so stupid as to say all that n not mean it in the slightest?! {this is just before lucifer creates his own universe}
another page.............
{lucifer and micheal stand outside a rip in the universe}
micheal:its beautiful, i can feel it.....reaching out to embrace me.
lucifer:thats an interesting side affect.if u make a hole in the universe, all sorts of things will be sucked in towards it.
micheal:knowing you as i do im SURE youve TAKEN STEPS TO SAFEGUARD YOUR PRIVACY.
"GOD HAS SPOKEN"
lucifer:has he now, and did my name come up in ther conversation?
micheal:he wishes you to proceed NO FURTHER IN THIS.
there can be only ONE CREATION. he will "PERMIT" NO OTHER.
{end of page}
THIS clearly proves that god neither wished nor PERMITTED another creation.
{next page}
lucifer: he will permit? micheal micheal! what are you saying to me? this is NONESENSE.
his JURISDICTION "ENDS" here, beyond the gate is all MINE.
he has no AUTHORITY to PERMIT or PROSCRIBE me in MY universe.
micheal:he is your creator brother. the rules are his not yours. and by the same token what u make is also his im sorry.
lucifer: so am i, more sorry than i can say
micheal: he requires an answer
lucifre: id hoped that you of all of them might have had the courage at last to say no.
lucifer: ill give him an answer, ill give him an answer thatll RING IN HIS EARS UNTIL THE SKY FALLS.
{page ends}
NOW DOESNT THAT PROVE IN LUCIFER'S OWN WORDS THAT GODHAD NO POWER OVER HIS CREATION?! n micheal said that what lucifer makes is GOD'S
Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope. 😉Undoubtably it would be your opinion of what went on. Unless u wanna give me the URL? 🙂
nope, unlike u i give my oppinion after readin sumthin, ill post the convo, tell u to concentrate on a few important phrases n exlpain em.
{lucifer has stabbed micheal with his sword in the void n they both stand there as the energy released does its work}
micheal: and this is what excatly?
lucifer:the culmination of all my efforts. the end of PREDESTINATION. the end of TYRANNY.
i have ESCAPED from PROVIDENCE micheal. ive gone in the GOD BUSINESS.
you could join me if u wanted, ud be welcome.
micheal:i will consider it, but i think not. go well brother
{end of page}
NOW what does it LOOK like lucifer is saying? does it sound like the presence has control over the creation thas about to be made? can lucifer be so stupid as to say all that n not mean it in the slightest?! {this is just before lucifer creates his own universe}
another page.............
{lucifer and micheal stand outside a rip in the universe}
micheal:its beautiful, i can feel it.....reaching out to embrace me.
lucifer:thats an interesting side affect.if u make a hole in the universe, all sorts of things will be sucked in towards it.
micheal:knowing you as i do im SURE youve TAKEN STEPS TO SAFEGUARD YOUR PRIVACY.
"GOD HAS SPOKEN"
lucifer:has he now, and did my name come up in ther conversation?
micheal:he wishes you to proceed NO FURTHER IN THIS.
there can be only ONE CREATION. he will "PERMIT" NO OTHER.
{end of page}
THIS clearly proves that god neither wished nor PERMITTED another creation.
{next page}
lucifer: he will permit? micheal micheal! what are you saying to me? this is NONESENSE.
his JURISDICTION "ENDS" here, beyond the gate is all MINE.
he has no AUTHORITY to PERMIT or PROSCRIBE me in MY universe.
micheal:he is your creator brother. the rules are his not yours. and by the same token what u make is also his im sorry.
lucifer: so am i, more sorry than i can say
micheal: he requires an answer
lucifre: id hoped that you of all of them might have had the courage at last to say no.
lucifer: ill give him an answer, ill give him an answer thatll RING IN HIS EARS UNTIL THE SKY FALLS.
{page ends}
NOW DOESNT THAT PROVE IN LUCIFER'S OWN WORDS THAT GODHAD NO POWER OVER HIS CREATION?! n micheal said that what lucifer makes is GOD'S, but lucifer replies by sayin that hell give god an answer thatll ring in his ars till the sky falls! and the answer was that even with micheal saying that he was not allowed or powerful enough to challenge god's judgement, lucifer DID, n went on to take control of his universe/multiverse
Leon after that Michael says "Lucifer you cannot force him into a confrontation" Lucifer then says "I can do exactly as i like".. Yahweh/The Presence never showed up, and Michael is right about that! Everything Lucifer has done is part of the great plan of the Presence. all god did was piss Lucifer off more into doing what God wants him to do, thats all. God got what he wants with Lucifer not even knowing it 😄.
Originally posted by kevdude
Leon after that Michael says "Lucifer you cannot force him into a confrontation" Lucifer then says "I can do exactly as i like".. Yahweh/The Presence never showed up, and Michael is right about that! Everything Lucifer has done is part of the great plan of the Presence. all god did was piss Lucifer off more into doing what God wants him to do, thats all. God got what he wants with Lucifer not even knowing it 😄.
all that proves is the presence IS more powerful than lucifer, n i NEVER denied that it wasnt, but lucifer is compareable, in some sense, thas all im sayin, n his universe/multiverse IS out of the presence's jurisdiction as i have proven. wat u r sayin is ur oppinion, i have provided facts that people just keep denying. the REASON lucifer fell from heaven was because he rebelled against the presence's master plan, he WUDNT have fallen if he part of it, or remained part of it. or r u sayin that when micheal told lucifer god's wishes n wil he was lying in a wierd kinda attempt to actually MAKE lucifer create the universe{that he was already gonna creat reguardless of opposition or motivation due to revenge} outside of god's creation. is THAT ur argument? im sure any1 can see how ridiculous that is n it makes no sense watsoever. neither lucifer;s actions nor the universe he created{which IS outside the presence's power} or his rebellion and creation of hell or his fallen status were or are part of the presence's mastre plan.
what u don't get leon is that the rebellion is a part of the Presences plan, everything is a part of the great plan, the only thing God left open was to not know who would be the main 1 who could replace him, God wanted to be surprised about not knowing who would be the next ruler. In Lucifer 40 it shows yahweh/the presence/god talking to michael and lucifer and told Lucifer he wasted eternity to try to get away from the plan that which contains all things even his rebellion was a part of it, it even means Lucifers creation is Gods creation, Michael even said "And by the same token, what YOU make is also HIS(GODs), I'm sorry." Gods jurisdiction does not end in his creation it extends to whatever Lucifer and Michael and you could even say Elaine create.
Originally posted by kevdude
what u don't get leon is that the rebellion is a part of the Presences plan, everything is a part of the great plan, the only thing God left open was to not know who would be the main 1 who could replace him, God wanted to be surprised about not knowing who would be the next ruler. In Lucifer 40 it shows yahweh/the presence/god talking to michael and lucifer and told Lucifer he wasted eternity to try to get away from the plan that which contains all things even his rebellion was a part of it, it even means Lucifers creation is Gods creation, Michael even said "And by the same token, what YOU make is also HIS(GODs), I'm sorry." Gods jurisdiction does not end in his creation it extends to whatever Lucifer and Michael and you could even say Elaine create.
ur not liek gs n i hope u can listen to reason. please just go through ur reply again, n tell me,have u mentioned any feat or any character sayin sumthing like that, what you are sayin is an oppinion, a sumwhat reasonable one as you think its common sense, but ur giving the presence top position without anythin ot back it up, thas WHY u think its the way u say, but i have given proof that its not. and when micheal says that, lucifer STILL went on to rule his creation, thus proving micheal wrong{ill give him an answer thatll ring in his ears until the sk falls... and he did} it is common sense to look at simple interpretation n not always be thinking that the writer had compllicated logic he hid outright from the readers n left for just some to find out, logically, the presence is above lucifer, but also, does not have power OVER him or his creation, lucifer is not THAT MUCH weaker, probably more than 50% powerful compared to the presence, in an all out fight hed lose, but still has enough power to GIVE a fight, n retain what is his, like his creation, n the main point is, that the presence is NOT perfect and infalliable.
no i've read everything gs has said and i've read everything you have said and i have also done research on the topic in debate rit now for myself, and have come to the same conclusion time and again, and i agree with gs, we don't agree on a few minor things rit now such as Dc/Vertigo time lines and if DC/Vertigo are together which i believe them to be. The Presence is perfect! it is Lucifers opinion that u are agreeing with, which is outdated if u read the newer Lucifer comic books today, even if u read what Michael says and what Lucifer says, you could still come the the same conclusion.
Lucifer isn't 50% as powerful as The Presence, God is infinitely more powerful and Lucifer isn't infinite. when Elaine was talking to God when she left creation and said she would fight God to protect the universe if he decided he would let everything fall apart, God told her point blank "there will be no fight at all" and this is someone who is more powerful then Lucifer (though Elaine doesn't have the brains Luci does). Lucifer would still lose and would lose bad.
on a side note, Swamp Thing was seen at the Coast City memorial remembrance thing, and he is in Vertigo most of the time.
again, thas ur oppinion, ur denying wats given in the comics, the presence is not infinitely powerful, its more powerful than lucifer YES, but not infinitely since lucifer is potentially the next god, the presence was nearly killed by full potential swamp thing, he was weakened when he left creation which is not befitting of sum1 omnipotent, the great beast is the presence's equal in power. the infinite regression of gods that for thr eternal cycle is said to be beyond the presence himself as stated by lucifer. ur argument does not hold in light of the evidence seen.
Originally posted by leonheartmm
again, thas ur oppinion, ur denying wats given in the comics, the presence is not infinitely powerful, its more powerful than lucifer YES, but not infinitely since lucifer is potentially the next god, the presence was nearly killed by full potential swamp thing, he was weakened when he left creation which is not befitting of sum1 omnipotent, the great beast is the presence's equal in power. the infinite regression of gods that for thr eternal cycle is said to be beyond the presence himself as stated by lucifer. ur argument does not hold in light of the evidence seen.
Post scans of your evidence as opposed to just posting your interpretation of events. Something i have shown on this very thread to be somewhat dubious to say the least.
You need to understand that Lucifer amd Michael were created to POTENTIALLY be Gods successors. As stand alone beings they are not comparable to God. (As demonstrated by Lucifers declining powers with the absence of Yahweh from creation. ) For the brothers to achieve their full potential in which case they would be comparable to God they would have had to have gone through the ritual Elaine did (i.e sitting on the Primum Mobile and accepting their birthright and all the responsibilities it entails)
Neither of the brothers did that and as such they are now and forever will be merely just creations of Yahweh, regardless of what role they were made in mind for. They are still his creations and their power is still dependent on him. With that in mind youre very much incorrect as we've seen time and time again on this thread.
Heres another point you're wrong on:
Lucifers rebellion was very much a part of Yahwehs plans as he states here. 😄
Choose something a lil less complicated to be a fanboy on. 😮
