Michael and Lucifer Vs TOAA

Originally posted by Xplosive
WTF, what logic is that? How could their power surpass that of The Presence while The Presence created them and do to them what they are. They could do the same thing The Presence can (because he allows them), but they can not affect The Presence, if The Presence wouldn't allow them, but The Presence could make them human or put tham out of existence, even if they would combine their power, The Presence would put them easily out of existence, can you understand, look how easily The Presence created Michael and Lucifer, such power, and in the same way he would easily put them out, undone them.
What do you not understand. Lucifer exist because of The Presence, Michael exist because of The Presence, their power exist because of The Presence (so what is the problem, tell me), really what don't you undestand. The only being in DCU, or MU (if in MU is one like The Presence, which it is, but not revealed yet, we are not sure) who is completely undeafeatable, who is the ultimate, it's The Presence. Lucifer goen mad, he is stopped, if Michael gone mad, he would be stopped, if Spectre gone mad he would be stopped, if Michael and Lucifer combined would gone mad, they would be stopped (because there is The Presence), but if The Presence would chose to destroy everyhitng, well, it would be impossbile and he wouldn't and couldn't be stopped.

r u sure of wat ur sayin, swamp thing nearly killed the presence once when constantine unleashed its full potential, lucifer owns his own universe/multiverse, outside the presence's creation n the presence DIDNT allow it, but lucifer made it anyway, n it is out of the power of the presence. the presence also left creation once.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
TOAA is apparently the name this forum gave to Marvel's supreme being.

But that doesnt make sense because TOAA is stated to be LTs master and he hasnt been stated to be the supreme being. As an entity all whats said about TOAA is that he is beyond the IG and Eternity. These days many beings are so that vague coment doesnt make TOAA the supreme being.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
But that doesnt make sense because TOAA is stated to be LTs master and he hasnt been stated to be the supreme being. As an entity all whats said about TOAA is that he is beyond the IG and Eternity. These days many beings are so that vague coment doesnt make TOAA the supreme being.

Perhaps he isn't the supreme being.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
r u sure of wat ur sayin, swamp thing nearly killed the presence once when constantine unleashed its full potential, lucifer owns his own universe/multiverse, outside the presence's creation n the presence DIDNT allow it, but lucifer made it anyway, n it is out of the power of the presence. the presence also left creation once.

If The Presence can be killed he is NOT the supreme being. Besides, that sounds like it's out of continuity.

Let's get to the meat and cheese of the argument people . It is God (or at least what we believe to be god) against two unbelievably powerful archangels. We all know who i'm siding with.......

Originally posted by grey fox
Let's get to the meat and cheese of the argument people . It is God (or at least what we believe to be god) against two unbelievably powerful archangels. We all know who i'm siding with.......

If he is God, he will not lose. Not to anyone. Not even the GEB. That's kinda the definition of the term 'Supreme Being.'

I know , this is whats causing so much confusion about wether or not the being in Vertigo's 'Preacher' was God.....

rock on cosmic cube, logic would suggest that a supreme being can't be defeated or he is not the supream being.

that's right grey fox

Originally posted by leonheartmm
r u sure of wat ur sayin, swamp thing nearly killed the presence once when constantine unleashed its full potential, lucifer owns his own universe/multiverse, outside the presence's creation n the presence DIDNT allow it, but lucifer made it anyway, n it is out of the power of the presence. the presence also left creation once.

Swamp exist because of The Presence, The Presence allowed that to Swamp. Lucifer own his universe, The Presence could easily delete that multiverse, but it chose not to.
The Presence is God, Yahweh, everyone exist beacuse of him, everyone, also Swamp and any other power. He cannot be hurt, he cannot be killed and he cannot be touched, if he doesn't allow it.
He can collapse our multiverse nad Lucier multiverse, he is the supreme of everthing, the void which Lucifer used to create Multiverse with Michale help, well guess, that void is also because of The Presence. Lucifer Multiverse also exist beacuse of The Presence (because Lucifer was created by The Presence).

Originally posted by Xplosive
Swamp exist because of The Presence, The Presence allowed that to Swamp. Lucifer own his universe, The Presence could easily delete that multiverse, but it chose not to.
The Presence is God, Yahweh, everyone exist beacuse of him, everyone, also Swamp and any other power. He cannot be hurt, he cannot be killed and he cannot be touched, if he doesn';t allow it.

the presence TRIED, but failed with lucifer, he got his own creation AGAINST the will of the presence as EXPLICITLY stated by micheal, n lucifer himself. n the swamp thing did almost kill the presence, n the presence cudnt stop it either. TGEB is also equal to the presence.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
the presence TRIED, but failed with lucifer, he got his own creation AGAINST the will of the presence as EXPLICITLY stated by micheal, n lucifer himself. n the swamp thing did almost kill the presence, n the presence cudnt stop it either. TGEB is also equal to the presence.

If the Presence TRIED to do something and FAILED he is NOT the SUPREME BEING, and he is NOT OMNIPOTENT.

This is logic, folks. No frills.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Nope theyre not conclusively. Merely having the same characters doesnt equate to it being within the same continuity, especially when those characters dont do the same things in their respective universes. We simply dont know for a fact so we all need to talk from two perspectives when mentioning the character in debates. For example as if they are the same and if theyre just different beings in unrelated creations merely based on the same template.

We along with everyone else on these forums has already talked about the DC and Vertigo universe as being the same. Vertigo is a line within the DC Universe that is for adults only. The Spectre has been seen in Vertigo books, Phantom Stranger has been seen, The Word has talked about the Spectre and others have been seen in the Vertigo Universe that is in the DCU, so put 1 and 1 together GS, they are the same. there is a few stand alone books within Vertigo that are not connected to DC/Vertigo Universe, such as preacher.

The Presence only told Michael he wouldn't allow another creation but God's. the Presence itself never took any action to destroy Lucifers Creation (he could have destroyed it if he really wanted). the main reason he told michael to tell lucifer that was to piss luc off and to just keep doing what lucifer is doing (being gods enemy). Lucifer is still within the great plan God made.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
If the Presence TRIED to do something and FAILED he is NOT the SUPREME BEING, and he is NOT OMNIPOTENT.

This is logic, folks. No frills.

yes it is, the presence+ micheal/lucifer/elaine/jesus+the great evil beast+the endless might be considered the entire power of DC/VERTIGO, because they are unique n seperate in one way or another n its still hazy to what the exact origins are. also there is the problem of lucifer himself sayin that there is an infinite number or cycle of gods above the presence that was beyond even his comprehension so nuthin much can be said, only their feats can be taken n compared to other powers.

Originally posted by leonheartmm
yes it is, the presence+ micheal/lucifer/elaine/jesus+the great evil beast+the endless might be considered the entire power of DC/VERTIGO, because they are unique n seperate in one way or another n its still hazy to what the exact origins are. also there is the problem of lucifer himself sayin that there is an infinite number or cycle of gods above the presence that was beyond even his comprehension so nuthin much can be said, only their feats can be taken n compared to other powers.

And the Presence is not the Supreme Being. Simple as that.

Wait... Jesus is in DC COMICS!? 😱

Originally posted by kevdude
We along with everyone else on these forums has already talked about the DC and Vertigo universe as being the same. Vertigo is a line within the DC Universe that is for adults only. The Spectre has been seen in Vertigo books, Phantom Stranger has been seen, The Word has talked about the Spectre and others have been seen in the Vertigo Universe that is in the DCU, so put 1 and 1 together GS, they are the same. there is a few stand alone books within Vertigo that are not connected to DC/Vertigo Universe, such as preacher.

The Presence only told Michael he wouldn't allow another creation but God's. the Presence itself never took any action to destroy Lucifers Creation (he could have destroyed it if he really wanted). the main reason he told michael to tell lucifer that was to piss luc off and to just keep doing what lucifer is doing (being gods enemy). Lucifer is still within the great plan God made.

My previous post still stands. Merely having the same characters doesnt equate to the two labels being of the same continuity. Especially not when those characters go through different events, events of such a scale that they should show up simultaneously in both labels or be referred in the opposing label (Infinite Crisis, Crisis on Infinite Earths, Yahweh leaving creation) but dont.

You need to understand that you have nothing on panel or any writers statements that conclusively show that theyre both of the same continuity. With that in mind its just your opinion. Dont present it as anything but that. Until you have proof theyre very much seperate for debating purposes, unless a threadmaker states at the beginning that they would like debating to occur from the perspective that theyre both of the same continuity.

Originally posted by kevdude
We along with everyone else on these forums has already talked about the DC and Vertigo universe as being the same. Vertigo is a line within the DC Universe that is for adults only. The Spectre has been seen in Vertigo books, Phantom Stranger has been seen, The Word has talked about the Spectre and others have been seen in the Vertigo Universe that is in the DCU, so put 1 and 1 together GS, they are the same. there is a few stand alone books within Vertigo that are not connected to DC/Vertigo Universe, such as preacher.

The Presence only told Michael he wouldn't allow another creation but God's. the Presence itself never took any action to destroy Lucifers Creation (he could have destroyed it if he really wanted). the main reason he told michael to tell lucifer that was to piss luc off and to just keep doing what lucifer is doing (being gods enemy). Lucifer is still within the great plan God made.

ur right about the first part, dc/vertigo r the same. but the second part is weak speculation, because after all, micheal is the strongest agent of the presence, at this point i dont think we can afford speculatin cause we know that leads to baseless arguments, what we have seen is there n it should be interpreted in the simplest way there is, lucifer fell from heaven BECAUSE he went again the presence's master plan, the presence "wud not ALLOW another creation" as stated by micheal to lucifer, n lucifer himself said that the presence's jurisdiction ended there n micheal was talkin nonesence, "all beyond it is MINE" n "ive gone in the GOD business micheal" also "this is the end of tyranny" n micheal also said that lucifer wud have surely taken precaution to safequard his plan after sayin that the presence wudnt allow another creation, which in its simlpest terms, means that lucifer DID take precautions to guard against the presence. if u interpret it simply like the writers intended, its easy, if u try to bring out hidden logic that only u can see n that also supports ur argument than the argument will go nowhere cause EVERYone can do that. the presence isnt infalliable, it fought a war against lucifer n had to give up part of the multiverse as HELL for lucifer who reigned over it{reguardless of this sutin the presence's purposes later} dont forget, that against lucifer and the entire turned angelic host it was full out WAR. n another thing, the presence also left creation n came back WEAKENED, meanin its not infalliable. also there is the thing with it beein almost killed by swamp thing, n there beein an infinite number or cycle of gods above it. not to mention TGEB who is said to be the presence's equal

Lucifer making his creation against the will of the Presence isnt evidence of him being comparable in power to Presence. It just means he rebelled against his father. Please dont suggest such things Leon.

For when Yahweh left his creation everything fell apart and it was beyond Lucifers power to fix.

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
And the Presence is not the Supreme Being. Simple as that.

Wait... Jesus is in DC COMICS!? 😱

yup thas where the spirit of destiny came from, the warrior longinus killed jesus with his spear while he was crucified, n thas why the spear has such amazing powers, cause it killed the son of god{supposedly, he wasnt exactly shown to be as powerful or significant as lucifer/micheal who r considered the real sons of god}

Originally posted by leonheartmm
yup thas where the spirit of destiny came from, the warrior longinus killed jesus with his spear while he was crucified, n thas why the spear has such amazing powers, cause it killed the son of god{supposedly, he wasnt exactly shown to be as powerful or significant as lucifer/micheal who r considered the real sons of god}

This is just blasphemous. Really it is. Whoever writes these comics will burn in hell.

Jesus isn't supposed to be a comic book character!